The recent court rulings seem to have cracked a few doors for many Bonfire supporters all across the campus and throughout the Texas A&M community. Although it may all be meaningless in the big picture of trying to Bonfire back on campus in some form, it still gives people the chance to dream...sort of like buying a lotto ticket I guess.

I can't help but to imagine what kind if insane numbers would be pulled for the return to campus should it ever happen.

Although it is probably a long shot, this is a situation that the current leadership should plan for now. The current structure would not be able to handle the large jump in numbers.

Remember that UPS commercial where the company goes live and then celebrates as the first orders come through? Joy turns to fear and worry as the trickle of orders becomes a flood and they realize that they are not prepared for it. Same type of thing could happen.

[This message has been edited by Kip95 (edited 4/27/2007 2:14p).]

I disagree. I believe they would be able to handle the increase number of volunteers, very easily. The leadership structure is better than when bonfire was on campus. Also the adaptivity of the organization is great. Don't worry they can handle anything thrown at them.

Well, I had written a really long post in response to you, but it got lost somehow. Oh well.

I hope you are right, but I somehow doubt that they have a better on how to handle large numbers than we did. They have no experience with it to date. I hope that they are as flexible as you say, but they really need to be thinking now about how they will handle different scenarios in the future. Whether Bonfire is ever allowed back on campus or is simply recognized by the university there will be a lot of attention both from the media and from those who do not want to see Bonfire return. Any snafu and it will be blown all out of proportion. Planning for it now helps relieve a lot of fire-fighting/damage control in the future.

Talk about being under a microscope. I would absolutely LOVE for Bonfire to return to campus in all the glory of the pre-1999 days, with students cutting, stacking, organizing burn, and then having 100-200,000 people come out to see the triumphant return to campus. Those who know me know that I am 110% behind that. However, because 1999 DID happen, and because the attitude of the University has had to change (and has), I have a hard time believing they would allow it to happen under the current administration of Student Bonfire. God only knows how I'd love to see the Corps, the Band, the Yell Leaders, and everyone else back involved. I sure hope it can overcome the boundaries that it didn't have before because an outsourced Burn just wouldn't be the same.

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I have a hard time believing they would allow it to happen under the current administration of Student Bonfire

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they would be ignorant not to. i'm not sure of the jrps this year, but the seniors this year i know are more than capable of doing an excellent job.

[This message has been edited by Ellemenoquo (edited 4/27/2007 5:07p).]

For the most part I grew up here, my mom worked on campus and every year we would watch bonfire. I was working the night it fell and saw all the hardships that happened. Despite all the naysayers, I would love to see at least a memorial bonfire in 2009. I think that would be one of the greatest sights my child could see. It can be done safely, tastefully, and respectfully. I am new to TexAgs but I think this is a great thing to accomplish.

Oh, I don't doubt that they COULD do an excellent job. I just don't know if they'll get the chance. One of the jrps lives in my dorm, and he's a stand-up guy. He'd do a good job.

Of course they'd be ignorant to not let SB run the show IF they let Bonfire back in its old form. That's what I question. My fingers are crossed, though.

i definitely think that the bonfire leadership could deal with the increased meat. we are now under a much greater microscope than ever existed before. it also pisses me off that ol ags act like we don't have any sense. we have learned from your mistakes, and are much better for it. a person who graduated in 95 especially doesn't have room to talk.

I think your condescending tone and manner is pretty ridiculous. So much for having respect for the ones who paved the way for you to have the privilige of attempting to recreate the real Bonfire they actually experienced.

You can't say for certain that current leadership could handle the influx of personnel. I'm not saying that they're inadequete leaders, just that an organization of such a size increasing 5 to 10 fold would be tough for anybody to handle.

you are right. i dont know how we managed to build bonfire the last four years w/ out ags like kip95. without their excellent leadership abilities, we would never have known not allow things like alcohol at cut and stack, and i don't think we could have ever figured out that we should place the stack on a level ground surface. New Army. Full of incompetent & incapable students like myself since (insert your graduation year here.)

you're on think ice champ, and coming from me on this board, that's pretty serious. Talk about a total lack of respect for those that came before you and why your beloved tradition exists. That you think the bonfire you build is by far superior to the one that burned on campus for 90 years is arrogant and self defeating to the overall cause of ASB.

[]1, rj obviously is a newcomer to this little section of the board or he would recognize me as one of the supporters; one of the guys who have always said that "new army" (I hate that term, by the way. Army is army.) Bonfire is better than what we did because the people who build it have learned from our mistakes, have to make a real effort to build it and have to fight adversity that we had never seen. He would know that I hold everyone who works on Bonfire today in the highest esteem. Go ahead, rj, check my past posts and check in with folks like []1 who normally disagrees with everything I say. Go on . . . they'll tell you.

Obviously rj also doesn't get my point. I really wish this board hadn't eaten my long post. Oh well, let me try to recreate a shortened version of it.

It has nothing to do with whether or not "new army" Bonfire is better or worse, or the leadership is better or worse. The issue is that upon the return to campus or, at a minimum recognition by the University, there might be a large jump in the numbers and there will be a definite increase in media attention. No matter whether this happened for this Bonfire or "our" Bonfire this would be a problem. Too many inexperienced axes in the woods or randoms on load or stack site is dangerous. The leadership structure of Bonfire (and it is essentially the same now as it was then) can not handle a huge jump in numbers. Normally a large group of inexperienced folks would be paired up with a group of experienced people (say a dorm with no leadership in place gets paired with Croker, or something). Now, what would happen if Croker also had a huge jump in numbers AND a new dorm wanted to show up. Who do you pair them up with? Can the pots from that dorm handle it all? I know from experience that they can't. You can't keep an eye on that many people at one time and keep them all from making stupid mistakes; and any and every mistake that is made will be blown out of proportion by the media.

And, rj, I know EXACTLY what this is like. This is EXACTLY what happened when Bonfire leaned in '94. Old guys like me and Bonfire Coordinators like my wife (Justin, redpot from Walton, called her a crew chief. Made her year, I think) were leading crews of randoms out there. It was the only way to cope with the numbers. It was a 24/7 shop for 7 days straight. We struggled to keep what we were doing safe so that the increased media attention didn't have anything to latch onto and spin out of control. We didn't have the opportunity to plan for this possibility, nothing like that had ever happened before. This group does. It is another of our mistakes from which they (you) can learn.

All I said in my posts was that they need to start thinking about possibility this now. I am speaking from experience. I am not belittling the current leadership at all. I have confidence in them otherwise I would not support Bonfire.

*edited a spelling mistake.*

[This message has been edited by Kip95 (edited 4/28/2007 11:01p).]

kip,

How much older leadership (Chiefs/butts up to Reds) do you think might come out of the woodwork to help, should the issue come to fruit?

I think that adding numbers to the capable leadership at cut and stack won't really be the issue...but the phisical limitations of the stack that Student Bonfire builds will start to mess things up.

As it sits right now, Student Bonfire is basically making First Stack, only some of the logs are taller than before and some are shorter. If Student Bonfire should become large enough to cut and slam enough logs to recreate the First stack of old, what else will get changed? Would people be happy with a short, fat fire? The trees that go into the new First stack (the tallest logs around centerpole) are not so easy to come by, especially when limited to oak...(cedar is an option, but that wood would be better used in other places, and would probably play hell with some folks' allergies) So the inner tiers would be difficult to expand.

I think you're on to an interesting point here. It's not only a leadership question, it also has to deal with resources. If there was a maxxive influx of people, think of the woods that would have to be found to get all those people working. Think of stack, would it take 3 days? That would be a problem I guess.

That actually was part of my "lost post" (along with ideas about PR, transportation, dealing with the sudden flood of donations, etc.).

What do you do with all the people out there? Are there enough woods? Are there extra axes if they don't bring their own? Do you end up sending people away? This last question is one of the hardest, I think. Turning people away could cause bad-blood that lasts. People will say, "see, it isn't open to everyone." But with limited space/work, who do you pick to stay and how do you go about doing it?

Another problem that needs to be considered is time frame. By that I mean, what if the increase in numbers is temporary; say, only one or two weeks and then it gets back to the core group of hardcore builders? Do you set up a huge infrastructure to handle the numbers and make changes to Bonfire (engineer approved, of course) only to have the people disappear like they always used to? What if you make the assumption that it is temporary, make no changes to anything and then they don't disappear? Yes, deads will come out of the woodwork (myself included once my MBA is done) but will there be enough, consistently enough, to do the job? Will the deads stay around for an entire semester to help out or are there other ways of coping with the numbers?

This, by the way, is a problem I have experienced many time in business. Sudden, unplanned-for, rapid expansion leads to a rapid increase in management. That new management is not always as capable of leading the job as they were at doing the job. Some are too young and some just aren't natural leaders. How do you know until they are in the position, and once in it, how do you get them out? Yet another one of the post-graduation life lessons that Bonfire teaches pre-graduation.

Maybe the reds should start talking to yellows/chiefs about keeping an eye out for a second group of individuals who they believe capable of stepping up in a crisis. I know there was a group of guys in Walton who had pretty much set themselves up as "shadow pots." These guys were all as red-ass as the Bonfire leaders but for some reason had been overlooked. Some were overlooked unfairly. They actually passed down these positions in secret for at least a few generations. They could definitely have stepped up and led some crews.

These are just a few thing to consider. I know leadership has the ability to handle these things and don't feel the need to show their hands on this board, so this is only the ramblings of some old dead pot. But, if I happen to mention some scenario that they hadn't thought of yet, all the better.

I don't frequent the Bonfire board a whole lot but this post caught my attention. I have no idea where RJ gets off with that attitude but I certainly hope that none of the current Bonfire leaders share his thoughts.

Lets be honest here, its not like they created this leadership structure from the ground up. They were able to look at the old way of doing things and improve upon it (and certainly there are things that could have been improved). From what I understand it sounds like they have done that. But nevertheless I would expect some measure of respect to "old Army" Bonfire guys. I also understand that respect is a two way street and said "old Army" Bonfire guys do not always return it. I can't really answer why that is but its likely the attitude and thinking that what we did was on a larger scale and more "hardcore" so to speak.

In any case, I think Kip made some really good points about expansion. Having people out at cut and stack that are not really there to work hard and get things done right will be a problem. Hell, it was a problem in '98 (Bonfire my pot year). I remember me and and the pots from our dorm would get up on stack and literally spend a whole 6 hours just making things tight because people didn't know how to wire things correctly. It was not a lack of effort in trying to teach the proper skills but rather apathy on the part of some students who were just out there to say they were out there. This will be a huge problem if/when they bring Bonfire back to campus because every Frat boy and random chode will want to get in on it. And how do you really prepare for that? I am hesitant to say it but there almost needs to be some kind of qualification process or leaders need to be very liberal with kicking people out of the woods or off stack if they are not doing things right. But, like Kip said, thats a whole new can of worms in the form of negative PR (and you can be sure the media will be very quick to jump all over this).

Sorry for the length of this post but one last point and question. My favorite part of Bonfire was stack. Loved it, and every fall I think about it and wish I could be out there. But the reality is that I really do not see how stack can be done in a manner that would meet the safety standards that the University and state would likely require (at least not the way it used to be done). My question is this: Is off campus Bonfire currently student stacked or is it mechanical? Last I heard it was all mechanical but I am not sure if that is still the case. To be honest (and I have said this since it fell and they were deciding what to do), I would not mind if they brought back Bonfire with just cut and no stack (i.e. do it all mechanically). At least bring back cut.

Anyways, I remember going out to help with student Bonfire a few weekends back in the day when it first started up and they treated me with a lot of respect because of my former pot status and that was certainly appreciated. In return I did what I can to help people out in the woods and take some of the stress off of the guys who were trying to organize things. I tried to get other people I knew to get out there but it really is hard getting some of the old Bonfire people to support the new Bonfire. And I admit, I have not always been very supportive myself though hope to change. All I can say is that I'm glad there are a group of students committed to keeping the tradition alive and hope it continues. To this day I like to keep it so that the last Bonfire I saw burn was the one in '98. I'd love to see it back on campus and change that though.

HHH

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Last I heard it was all mechanical but I am not sure if that is still the case.

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It is actually the exact opposite.

Nothing mechanical about stack at all...unless you count the pulley between the loose end of the tagling and the log "mechanical"

So how is it done? How many stacks are there? Is it wired the same as it used to be? Are swings and all that done the same?

HHH

first of all, i just want to say that we should all keep into mind that everything we write on these boards is monitered by the highest levels of administration at the school. they really take into consideration what we say on TexAgs. we know this is true (ranger65).

i, like most, want bonfire to return to campus someday soon. but the next logical thought that we have to consider is whether our posts are conducive to the administrations decision to bring back bonfire.

specifically:
By doubting the current student's ability to handle increased numbers, what are we doing for their chances of getting the opportunity to have even one student work on on-campus bonfire?

we should be doing all we can to bring bonfire back on campus, not degrading the competency of current student's leadership abilities, and therefore hindering thier efforts.

pukepot01-

to answer your question, every log at student bonfire must touch the ground. this is to reduce tension in the stack. the logs that are brought from cut are placed in different piles based on height, and are then placed around the center pole according to height. 3-4 different rings are then made around the stack, which gives it the same wedding cake look, with reduced tension on the logs.

[This message has been edited by rjamizon (edited 4/29/2007 12:55p).]

No one is disregarding the competency of the current leadership.

rj, you would do right to just stop posting. Coming from me, like I said earlier, is kind of a big thing to say.

quote:

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we should be doing all we can to bring bonfire back on campus, not degrading the competency of current student's leadership abilities, and therefore hindering thier efforts.

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believe you me, leadership reads this board. nobody here doubts their abilities. but what is said here definitely has the opportunity to be heard and considered, all in the effort to improve the organization. not degrade it. and just for the record, i seriously doubt anything said on texags is going to hinder their efforts.

i have a lot of respect for the idea, or spirit from which bonfire was created. i do. but what i do not have is a respect for what people turned bonfire into (an excuse to abuse alcohol, haze underclassmen, and leave all logical thought aside--forgetting to take care of the basics of bonfire) and therefore aiding its demise. Then, these same people have the audacity to question the abilities of current bonfire leaders? that's ridiculous.

instead of questioning if the reds or whoever could do it, why don't you offer up advice instead? i saw a little encouragement earlier in the thread. thank you for your help. its easy to sit in your chair at your house and b*tch about how it can't be done now, but its another to actually get out and help us make bonfire a success.

hazing.

Also pukepot01, in the Student Bonfire stack there has been installed 4 additional "sub-centerpoles" that are cross hatched with large planks and industrial binding at the top and dig into the ground. They become absorbed into one of the "illusional" (illusional b/c they are just taller trees topped as single logs, but the Bonfire is just one wide stack since no logs are actually on top of each other.) upper level stacks. They are called Windle Sticks and they not only supply immense strength, but also serve as directional quadrants for stack, allow ease in slamming, and allow for comparable depth from centerpole after Stack phase has begun. The ropes system used for stack is highly accessible, reliable, and at even the harshest criticism, adequate. Perimeter poles still maintain a stack perimeter, serve as rope/pulley depots, are buried and secured in the ground, and bear attachment to Centerpole.


As a very valid point, I do feel that the current stack format would not be conducive to a vast influx of workers without serious revision in design and logistical approach. And while this may be a serious concern, it is certainly not a fatal flaw to say the least. Also taking into account that while there may be a rise in participation, I do not foresee any sort of numbers far exceeding pre-99 levels, just an overwhelming burn crowd. (read: if thought you had a transportation logistical nightmare before... welcome to the big leagues.) Throughout it all, I think that adjustment can be easily and adequately brought to action if need be.

Wow, rj, you really aren't very skilled at reading are you? And your logic is also a little off.

First, you know nothing about me, who I am or what I stand for, so to stereotype me as one of the people who used Bonfire as an excuse to drink haze and act like an idiot is a bit unfair. It's kind of like what you are (wrongly) accusing me of doing. It is also unfair to the majority of people who worked on Bonfire who did none of the things you accuse us all of.

Second, at no time have I ever questioned the abilities, competence or intelligence of the current Bonfire leaders (unless you are one, in which case I will now make one exception). I offered advice based out of experience. I offered up items for them to consider in their planning for the possible return to campus or recognition by the University. I am not trying to solve their possible problems for them because I believe that they have a better handle on the current situation than I do.

One thing I did question was the logic of Ivory2003 who said that they could handle an increase in numbers better than we could because they have a better leadership structure. I question that because 1) they have essentially the same structure we had 2) we had issues with a sudden increase in numbers and 3) to date they do not have experience with the numbers we had so there is no evidence to say that they can handle an increase in numbers any better than we did. As such I offered advice, not criticism.

Now, please, learn to read, quit being such an pr!ck and stop trying to alienate the few of us old timers who even care if you guys succeed.

Yer buddy,

kip

*edit - darned pre-coffee typos*

[This message has been edited by Kip95 (edited 4/30/2007 1:43p).]

Don't want to dogpile, and this is my first time to post on this board, but rj needs needs to listen to the voices of experience and wisdom. Anyone that thinks they have all the answers and is totally close-minded to any assistance or suggestions, is headed for a fall. "Pride cometh before a fall" is still true, and always will be.

His reaction to the posts here is reactionary and indicative of a fatal flaw is leadership and management skills, based on my 30+ years of management experience.

I would love to see the bonfire back on campus and agree it would be great for TAM. Ditto the microscope comment, and I am sure the current administration would make sure it was handled safely and professionally.

"ROGER - OUT"

Kip95,
Sorry for reply in a timely manner to your comments. I have no idea how involved you have been since the fall of 1999 or during 1999. Also I wonder on how you come up with the information in the past 7 years. I do want to say that I believe that you are correct about the increase of volunteers and media attention. The upper leadership structure has changed from 1999. It has changed and adapted a couple times since 1999. Now I do apologize for saying a better leadership structure than 1999 bonfire and previous. The structure is designed for growth. The leaders also take in all advise given and do any adjustments needed. It is going to be tough for them but I believe they will pull it off.

The media situation if bonfire is brought back to campus or supported by Texas A&M. If it is on campus, I am sure that A&M will have a team of professional advisors to mange the media. If supported but seperate entity, then we will have to handle the media. This has happened already in the history of the last 7 years. Especially in the year of 2001. I am sure we may experience a little more media appearance, but can be managed.

Also back to the leadership. Upper leadership have an extra layer of leaders to allow more time for the reds to manage the crewchiefs of various organizations. I know for my previous organization we have support levels that were not previously there. This specific organization has the crewchiefs and yellow as the upfront leaders. Then behind them are the previous year leaders that are there do the extensive training in the spring and summer and watch over there chiefs and advise them continously on improvements needed. Then we have an advisory board of older experienced leaders with bonfire and real life organizations. These support the chiefs and the dads with new ideas of improvement and a non bias outlook of the chiefs and the system as a whole in the organization. Any major problems or questions are brought forth to the advisor board and are researched and address as any business does. There are many other things in placed in this organization that helps better produce leaders than I can say here.

I am sure that we are not the only organization within bonfire that has this kind of system setup. With the support groups, Bonfire should be able to handle thousands volunteers a day at cut. Stack would have to be adjusted in order to find enough work for that many people but the leaders can watch over the workers.

Ivory,

Thanks for the update. Very informative. That is indeed a slightly different structure and, hopefully, that will help the organization absorb additional workers should the numbers jump significantly. Having a group of experienced folks on hand and ready to step up and help is exactly what will be needed. Good to know.

All in all I think you guys are doing a great job of adapting and improving each year. I believe this more each time I hear about the improvements you guys have made. Keep up the good work.

kip

IF the lawsuits beginning to fade away starts to pave the way for looking at a return to campus the leadership HAS to maintain image and control. An event like what happened at burn in the fall could singlehandedly prevent Bonfire from ever returning to campus.

Aside from the danger to themselves, I don't think those guys gave ANY thought to the long term consequences of their actions.


This coming fall, the participants HAVE to make sure something like that never takes place.

quote:

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An event like what happened at burn in the fall

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I was at burn, and I don't remember seeing anything get out of hand. I feel like kind of a dunce for not noticing something since it would appear that something DID happen, but I can't say I did. The only thing would be that I got stuck in traffic so only got there at around 8:00ish, so if it was earlier I would have missed it.

If it's something you're comfortable posting on here, I'm a bit intrigued.

A group of people slammed a log onto stack as it was burning.

Ahhhh, I think I remember that a little...