In my readings this am and I thought was reassuring

https://pastorrick.com/devotional/english/what-does-god-think-of-you/

I know that God loves and cherishes me, but I don't think I could handle His honest, unfiltered opinion of me.

Go read John 3:16 and following verses and every place you find the word "world" put your name.

I'm of the opinion that if any gods do exist out there then they don't seem to be very interested in us at all. Perhaps that would be for the best though.

Rocag said:

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I'm of the opinion that if any gods do exist out there then they don't seem to be very interested in us at all. Perhaps that would be for the best though.

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God loves you. And even me.

Did God love Esau?

10andBOUNCE said:

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Did God love Esau?

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Yes. If you read the whole story Esau was blessed.

And I believe the story was actually about nations, Jacob was Israel and Esau was Edom, really does not matter because we are under a new covenant.

And look ligonier even agrees with me. God loves everyone. And why would anyone want God to hate anyone?

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/blessings-esau

ramblin_ag02 said:

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I know that God loves and cherishes me, but I don't think I could handle His honest, unfiltered opinion of me.

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I Thank God for his Boundless Grace and Mercy each day.

I just have to get my little jokes in someplace.

10andBOUNCE said:

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I just have to get my little jokes in someplace.

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As long as you are joking it is cool. The story of Jacob and Esau is a go to Calvinist talking point in my experiences. And in my opinion, Calvinists misrepresent the entire story.

God blessed Esau. Esau and Jacob reconciled. When Paul speaks of Jacob and Esau, I believe he is talking about the nations of Israel and Edom.

newbie11 said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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I know that God loves and cherishes me, but I don't think I could handle His honest, unfiltered opinion of me.

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I Thank God for his Boundless Grace and Mercy each day.

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Amen.

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I just have to get my little jokes in someplace.

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As long as you are joking it is cool. The story of Jacob and Esau is a go to Calvinist talking point in my experiences. And in my opinion, Calvinists misrepresent the entire story.

God blessed Esau. Esau and Jacob reconciled. When Paul speaks of Jacob and Esau, I believe he is talking about the nations of Israel and Edom.

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How is it more palatable that he hates an entire nation?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I just have to get my little jokes in someplace.

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As long as you are joking it is cool. The story of Jacob and Esau is a go to Calvinist talking point in my experiences. And in my opinion, Calvinists misrepresent the entire story.

God blessed Esau. Esau and Jacob reconciled. When Paul speaks of Jacob and Esau, I believe he is talking about the nations of Israel and Edom.

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How is it more palatable that he hates an entire nation?

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I think it is he chose Jacob to be Israel. His chosen people. But he still blessed Esau. Scripture says so. And it says nothing about Esau being condemned to eternal torment hell which I would think would be a pretty big deal.

God loves every person He created because as Scripture says, He is love.

Maybe we're reading a different Bible? These are the texts in question:

Rom. 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or badin order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls 12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Mal. 1:2 "I have loved you," says the Lord. But you say, "How have you loved us?" "Is not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the Lord. "Yet I have loved Jacob 3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert." 4 If Edom says, "We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins," the Lord of hosts says, "They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called 'the wicked country,' and 'the people with whom the Lord is angry forever.'" 5 Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, "Great is the Lord beyond the border of Israel!"

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Maybe we're reading a different Bible? These are the texts in question:

Rom. 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or badin order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls 12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Mal. 1:2 "I have loved you," says the Lord. But you say, "How have you loved us?" "Is not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the Lord. "Yet I have loved Jacob 3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert." 4 If Edom says, "We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins," the Lord of hosts says, "They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called 'the wicked country,' and 'the people with whom the Lord is angry forever.'" 5 Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, "Great is the Lord beyond the border of Israel!"

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Same Bible. And I believe God chooses those who he wants as leaders. That's evident through Scripture.

Do you agree God blessed Esau later? I don't think hate is what is meant as our concept of hate. Kind of like when Jesus says we must hate our parents and family. Will look up the Greek.

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Maybe we're reading a different Bible? These are the texts in question:

Rom. 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or badin order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls 12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Mal. 1:2 "I have loved you," says the Lord. But you say, "How have you loved us?" "Is not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the Lord. "Yet I have loved Jacob 3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert." 4 If Edom says, "We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins," the Lord of hosts says, "They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called 'the wicked country,' and 'the people with whom the Lord is angry forever.'" 5 Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, "Great is the Lord beyond the border of Israel!"

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Same Bible. And I believe God chooses those who he wants as leaders. That's evident through Scripture.

Do you agree Gid blessed Esau later? I don't think hate is what is meant as our concept of hate. Kind of like when Jesus says we must hate our parents and family. Will look up the Greek.

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Whatever it is, it's clearly contrasted with love. And it spells out the consequences to God's hate for Esau/Edom: laid waste, heritage to jackals, shattered, I will tear down, will be called "the wicked country".

Did you read the link I provided? From a Reformed source.

dermdoc said:

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Did you read the link I provided? From a Reformed source.

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What about it?

And according to this source, Esau was Job's grandfather in the Septuagint..
Fascinating how God works.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Did you read the link I provided? From a Reformed source.

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What about it?

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It says Esau was blessed. Did you read it?

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Did you read the link I provided? From a Reformed source.

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What about it?

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It says Esau was blessed. Did you read it?

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Likewise, many temporal (but not eternal) benefits come to those who profess faith and join a church, where God now shows Himself most visibly, even if they do not trust Christ.

Ps. 73 Truly God is good to Israel,
to those who are pure in heart.
2 But as for me, my feet had almost stumbled,
my steps had nearly slipped.
3 For I was envious of the arrogant
when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.

4 For they have no pangs until death;
their bodies are fat and sleek.
5 They are not in trouble as others are;
they are not stricken like the rest of mankind.
6 Therefore pride is their necklace;
violence covers them as a garment.
7 Their eyes swell out through fatness;
their hearts overflow with follies.
8 They scoff and speak with malice;
loftily they threaten oppression.
9 They set their mouths against the heavens,
and their tongue struts through the earth.
10 Therefore his people turn back to them,
and find no fault in them.
11 And they say, "How can God know?
Is there knowledge in the Most High?"
12 Behold, these are the wicked;
always at ease, they increase in riches.
13 All in vain have I kept my heart clean
and washed my hands in innocence.
14 For all the day long I have been stricken
and rebuked every morning.
15 If I had said, "I will speak thus,"
I would have betrayed the generation of your children.

16 But when I thought how to understand this,
it seemed to me a wearisome task,
17 until I went into the sanctuary of God;
then I discerned their end.

I'd like to have a discussion with you instead of AI.

I agree.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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I'd like to have a discussion with you instead of AI.

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Okay. Fire away.

I will ask do you believe in double predestination? Do you believe Esau ever was blessed and reconciled with Jacob.?

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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I'd like to have a discussion with you instead of AI.

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Okay. Fire away.

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Let's pick back up with you looking up the Greek of "hate". You said the author of Malachi and Romans had a different concept of "hate" than we do. What did they mean when they use the word hate? I said that they contrasted it with love. One person/nation God loves while the other he hated. And that God's promise to those he hated included destruction and being called wicked.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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I'd like to have a discussion with you instead of AI.

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Okay. Fire away.

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Let's pick back up with you looking up the Greek of "hate". You said the author of Malachi and Romans had a different concept of "hate" than we do. What did they mean when they use the word hate? I said that they contrasted it with love. One person/nation God loves while the other he hated. And that God's promise to those he hated included destruction and being called wicked.

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So we are literally to hate our parents?

And I will look up the Greek.

Do you believe in double predestination?

The Greek is misos which can be translated as the absence of love, actual hatred, or to be loved less.

I think it is the latter just like when Christ used the word when talking about our parents and families.

And God allowed Esau and Jacob to reconcile so there was redemption. There is no mention of hell as a punishment.

dermdoc said:

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The Greek is misos which can be translated as the absence of love, actual hatred, or to be loved less.

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Which of these three describes God's disposition toward Esau/Edom?

Mal. 1:2 "I have loved you," says the Lord. But you say, "How have you loved us?" "Is not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the Lord. "Yet I have loved Jacob 3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert." 4 If Edom says, "We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins," the Lord of hosts says, "They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called 'the wicked country,' and 'the people with whom the Lord is angry forever.'" 5 Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, "Great is the Lord beyond the border of Israel!"

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Greek is misos which can be translated as the absence of love, actual hatred, or to be loved less.

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Which of these three describes God's disposition toward Esau/Edom?

Mal. 1:2 "I have loved you," says the Lord. But you say, "How have you loved us?" "Is not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the Lord. "Yet I have loved Jacob 3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert." 4 If Edom says, "We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins," the Lord of hosts says, "They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called 'the wicked country,' and 'the people with whom the Lord is angry forever.'" 5 Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, "Great is the Lord beyond the border of Israel!"

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Depends on how you translate misos. From what happened with the reconciliation with Jacob, I would go with love less. How do you interpret it?

And I think it is key to know if you believe in double predestination to understand your interpretation.

Along those lines, how do you translate hate when Jesus mentioned it about our families and parents?

And since you derided me for posting links of commentaries, how about you tell me what you think.

Those Scriptures have been interpreted in different ways. And the word misos or hate certainly has.

And Esau and Edom did okay long term at least in the temporal world. But everything as far as I can tell God said was talking about the temporal world. I see no mention of hell or eternal torment.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Did God love Esau?

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You had to do it. Now look where we are.

And part of it is due to me. I am very competitive and always want to "win". This is not good in theological discussions with thoughtful, born again Christians.

So I am bowing out for a while as led by the Spirit.

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Greek is misos which can be translated as the absence of love, actual hatred, or to be loved less.

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Which of these three describes God's disposition toward Esau/Edom?

Mal. 1:2 "I have loved you," says the Lord. But you say, "How have you loved us?" "Is not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the Lord. "Yet I have loved Jacob 3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert." 4 If Edom says, "We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins," the Lord of hosts says, "They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called 'the wicked country,' and 'the people with whom the Lord is angry forever.'" 5 Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, "Great is the Lord beyond the border of Israel!"

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Depends on how you translate misos. From what happened with the reconciliation with Jacob, I would go with love less.

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God loved Esau less than Jacob? What does even mean? His love is unconditional.

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Did God love Esau?

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You had to do it. Now look where we are.

And part of it is due to me. I am very competitive and always want to "win". This is not good in theological discussions with thoughtful, born again Christians.

So I am bowing out for a while as led by the Spirit.

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If I had the foreknowledge to know it would have started something I would have been quiet.

Kind of just left a big bag of crap on the doorstep and left. My bad, bud!

I'll at least contribute something meaningful…RC always has a way with these answers.