I believe Orthodoxy is a beautiful expression of Apostolic Christianity in the purest liturgical form. From a theological standpoint the Orthodox are….Orthodox. They are solid on their beliefs and practice (while we might have our differences on the Papacy). I love the way they approach the faith with mystery and focus on the experiential aspects of living the sacraments daily through prayer and fasting and community.

I will let the EO brothers here speak to your question on Icons. I wish you well in your journey and exploration!

Firstly, I recommend anyone who is interested in orthodoxy watch this series of interviews with 10 Minute Bible Hour. Its a great intro to visiting and understanding whats in an orthodox church and why. There is also a bit of the answer to the icons as well.



Secondly, the most orthodox response I could think of to "Why do you kiss icons" is "Why do you not?"

And there in lies a kernel of how every question and answer is going to go with Orthodoxy. There is primacy there. The most unchanged church, and the preservation of the theology and church life of the early church, as kept from 2nd temple judiasm prayer practice with the fullness of Jesus's revelation as the Messiah. A church journey needs to be ready to trace theology out of the OT, through the church counsels, through the church fathers, through the early church practices and traditions and then ask yourself what you believe when approaching a schism, and what became of each group post schism.

But specifically about the icons. Icons themselves are viewed as windows. Think of it as a glass pane. If you as a kid were on one side of a glass pane, and your parent was on the other, and the adult made a gesture to kiss the window and you kissed the glass from your side would you not view it as giving your parent a form of a kiss? So kissing the icons is downstream of...

The cultural practice of reverence. Kissing the hands and feet is a common cultural practice you see in biblical times as gestures of respect and gratitude. Kissing the cheek is seen as a greeting as well.

When you reverence the icon, you're paying respect to them for the saintly life they lived for God. You're also greeting them. They are alive, in heaven, around you. Joining you in worship. You have a church full of icons to reflect that reality. When you kiss the icon to show reverence, you kiss the hands. For most icons you also can just kiss the edge of the frame. No slobbery kisses. No lipstick or chapstick.

Also, 90% of anyone who has ever stepped foot in a church never knew how to read. Icons and iconography are also medium to tell the history of the church and share the glory of God.

Paying honor to an image is an ancient custom. The ancients both kissed and saluted divine images. Kissing was also a common way to show honor to a person, kissing a hand, or more rarely the hem of a robe.

So I think there are two things here: one cultural, one theological - and that, in two parts.

Culturally we don't do this, so we get the ick about kissing in general. We don't kiss non-family people when we greet, so kissing just feels out of place regardless. But the culture our faith came from - and I'm not even really talking about Jewish culture, but even Roman - had kissing of the cheek or hand as a part of a greeting or supplication.

The theological point is one of veneration of an image in general. The icon or image par excellence is Christ Jesus: He is the perfect image of the Father. This is central to the worship of Jesus and the Holy Spirit as being worship of God the Father - the worship expressed to the Son passes through to the Prototype, that is, the Father. This point was made in theological debates unrelated to iconography by the fathers - for example, famously St Basil the Great wrote:

Quote:

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...the Son is in the Father and the Father in the Son; since such as is the latter, such is the former, and such as is the former, such is the latter; and herein is the Unity. So that according to the distinction of Persons, both are one and one, and according to the community of Nature, one. How, then, if one and one, are there not two Gods? Because we speak of a king, and of the king's image, and not of two kings. The majesty is not cloven in two, nor the glory divided. The sovereignty and authority over us is one, and so the doxology ascribed by us is not plural but one; because the honor paid to the image passes on to the prototype.

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He as well is the prototype of Man. Our icons of creation express this, in that Adam looks like Jesus. We are made after His image - He is truly Man, and we are His image bearers. This is the trap that the Lord trapped his detractors in about taxes. Who's image is it on the coin? Caesar's, they said - but they were wrong, because Caesar, being a man, bears the image of God. So who does it belong to? This is why, also, that whatever we do to the least of these, we do to Him. They bear His image, the honor and love we show them passes on to Him. And likewise the disdain and hatred.

Importantly, when the iconographic debates happened, this is the principle St John of Damascus and others referred to. Not that the images are pedagogical (they are) or that there's nothing wrong with kissing an image of a loved one (there isn't) or that the saints aren't dead (they're not). Those are all good, and true, but the real core principle here is that the honor paid to an image passes to the prototype.

When we kiss an image of Jesus, we are paying Him honor, and this is not the worship of two gods, but of One God ("I believe in One God, the Father Almighty...") and the honor passes to the prototype.

When we kiss an image of a saint, a friend of God, made holy by grace through faith, we are not honoring the wood, or paint, or paper - but honoring the saint. This honor passes to them, the prototype of the image of them, and to Christ Jesus, the prototype of man, and to God the Father, whom Christ images.

And not worship, because veneration isn't worship, but honor and respect. The scriptures make this distinction between venerating or reverencing and serving in Exodus 20:4 - they are to neither reverence OR worship idols. Worship is offering of sacrifice, reverencing is something else. The scriptures show people venerating other people, as well as venerating the Lord. This veneration is kissing, the Greek word has a word for "kiss" built into it.

The second theological point is one of confession of material redemption. The Son really became Man. He really took flesh, en-fleshed Himself, en-manned Himself. He really has feet, and eyes, hands, a mouth, a body. He ate, and drank. It wasn't a fictitious image. And so He can be imaged - St John even says because He became Man, we must create images of Him. And the absolute confession here is that matter, stuff, is not fundamentally bad or evil. The world isn't evil, no matter what Platonism or Apollonarianism or Docestism or any of a number of sects will say. We aren't trapped in a prison-house of our body, we don't need to escape the material for some floating immaterial nirvana or whatever. Matter was created good, and will be redeemed. Icons are a beachhead of that, of the Resurrection to come. They have been restored to their purpose, matter back in a cleansed action, truly good, imaging a righteous one, who themself image God.

So we have icons of Christ, properly. And those who image Him: His mother, St John the Forerunner, the Apostles, the saints and friends of God. And we confess these are worth the same honor we should great each other with - as St Paul says, a holy kiss - as they are living and praying for us. And these images are a theological confession, as is our veneration of them.

I'm currently exploring Orthodoxy myself, and have been going to a local Antiochian Orthodox Church for 6 months.

It has honestly been the greatest six month period of spiritual growth in my life. I actually first visited last year on Pentecost. It was interesting because the day prior, I had attended the local Pride festival, but left after 30 minutes. It just felt empty there. I have an Orthodox friend in the DC area who had been encouraging me to visit. I left Pride that Saturday and decided to go the very next day. My wife and daughter were at camp all week with our Christian Reformed church, so I went by myself. They were immediately welcoming, and one gentleman who works for the Church took me to sit by one of the priest's wife. She helped me through the service, as it's such a radical departure from Protestant world.

I remember a couple moments in the service that impacted me forever. First, had to do with the dress I had been wearing. It wasn't anything inappropriate, but I just felt this desire to cover myself. Not out of shame, but because I felt the presence of God. The second was when the Cherubic Hymn was sung. I had never heard it before, and I began to cry. There was just something about it. It wasn't constructed to elicit emotion, as many CCM worship songs are, but it just moved me so deeply.

I went home and sat in silence for days trying to wrap my head around what I experienced that day. I didn't go back at first, and my friend continued to encourage me. She knows I'm trans. We had talked about that before. She's always been so loving. She began to encourage me to talk to a priest, so in October of last year, I scheduled a meeting with the priest. I started with "I'll cut to the chase, is this *gestures at myself* a dealbreaker?" His response floored me. He first essentially pointed out that that was a very Protestant way of looking at things, and that Orthodoxy isn't about checking off a lot of boxes, like a task list, to gain entry. He then said "it's not my job to tell you what you need to repent for. That's the Holy Spirit's job. The Spirit is constantly revealing things in my own life that I may not even be aware of, and the Spirit will do that with you as well if you listen." My priest just continued to encourage patience.

So, starting at the beginning of the year, I began to attend every week. By myself. My family isn't drawn that way, so my Father said that would require more patience. I have met with him, typically once a month, since the start of the year. He's texted me on multiple occasions, including during Great Lent. The first time was after the Little Compline with the Life of St. Mary of Egypt and The Great Canon of Repentance by St. Andrew of Crete service. That service changed me. It's hard to explain on here, but it was essentially 3 hours of going through Scripture, chanting about repentance, doing hundreds of prostrations...I left that night, got to my car, and began to sob. Again, not out of shame, but just out of the realization of how I have been missing the mark. The Spirit revealed to me that I had a serious struggle with pride, that had infected every aspect of my life.

Then there was Holy Week, culminating in Pascha. I would leave the office in the morning to go to our sister church (if that's the right term) down the street for Holy Week Divine Liturgy and Vespers services. On Holy Friday, I went to the Royal Hours services throughout the day. Then the services that night. I was there for nearly 10 hours. Then back the next morning. Then that night for Pascha. I texted a friend I've made at the Church on Monday and asked if it's normal to be sitting in Bright Week longing to be back at Church. She said it absolutely is. It has lit something within me.

Even as I last met with my priest and discussed the possibility of detransition, he encouraged me to not focus on that one specific issue right now. He also encouraged me in my prayer time (he asked if I use a prayer book...I do, and highly recommend it) to just be quiet during the part of praying for our specific personal requests. He wants me to just be quiet and listen for the Spirit. So now, my morning prayers end with just standing in silence for 10 minutes, incense and candles going, just trying to still the noise and listen for Him.

All that to say, Orthodoxy has changed my life and I'm not even a catechumen yet (I truly pray I will one day, but as I told my priest, I'm not going to think on that anymore, and instead I will just trust the spiritual fathers of the Church to know when I'm ready. When there are things I don't understand, largely because of my faith background (such as theology of the Theotokos), I simply remind myself that I trust the Church and it's my understanding that needs to grow.

So, I will always encourage Orthodoxy to people now. I even had a trans person reach out asking if they should transition, and my response was to encourage them to visit a local Orthodox Church (I know this person is Christian) and talk to the priest and go to services. As I've come to say recently, transitioning did save my life. But I don't think it's the only thing that would have now, and I wish I had truly and earnestly explored Orthodoxy prior to ever taking hormones.

Sorry for the rambling.

Thanks for sharing PacifistAg. Lord have mercy on you and your family. Will pray for you.

Good luck, OP. I think Pacifist's testimony is a great way to approach your journey. While the end game isn't known to Pacifist or us yet, it's nothing short of a miralce to see the type of healing they are going through in that post. While you aren't struggling with the same issues, there are a ton of blessings in approaching the historical faith with a truly open mind and they have. So many American protestants are taught from very early in life that anything Catholic should be rejected. One of the blessings of the Orthodox presence in America now is that it allows christians like you to explore the historical faith without the perceived baggage of Catholicism.

When I reverted back to the Catholic faith, I had such a huge discomfort with Mary as mother. I was cool with honoring her as greatest of all saints, but I wanted it to stop there. I wanted her at a comfortable distance from Jesus. I couldn't get past it for some reason. But I knew the Church was true, and the Church held her in the prominent position of mother, so the problem lay with me. Over the past 10+ years of inspecting and praying on this has allowed me to realize my issue with Mary is rooted in issues I have with my broken family structure from childhood. There was some forgiveness and reconciliation needed in my personal life, and it's been very enlightening. The closer we are drawn to the Truth, the more we see ourselves for who we truly are, in good and bad ways.

I'm sure this is just one of many discomforts you'll have if you continue on the path you're on. If/As you continue, I encourage you to pray and meditate on why the particular misgivings you have are there to begin with. It's a blessing, in the end, because it's a chance to grow in holiness.

One thing that has really stood out to me is my priest's, and other Orthodox friends, repeated encouragement towards patience.

When I learned about St. Theodora of Alexandria and St. Mary of Egypt, I was struck by their patience. I talked about St. Theodora with my priest and pointed out how drawn to her I was, but not because she lived as a man, unbeknownst to her peers at the monastery. It wasn't that aspect that draws me at all. It's the humility to be banned from the monastery for 7 years after being falsely accused of something she is a biological impossibility, and the patience to live outside the monastery for 7 years before being welcomed back in.

I always grew up hearing mockery of Catholics and how they venerated the Saints, but now I see just how valuable they are to our own spiritual growth and education.

When I first joined the orthodox church our priest was very adamant about taking it slow. Even a bit cavalier towards catechumens who were well meaning and 'all in' already and wanted to rush it. 'The church has been around for 2000 years, it'll be here tomorrow. Take your time and really make sure you know what you're signing up for.' He told me.

It was a bit shocking to me at first. I was used to basically an assembly line where you would respond to an altar call on Sunday, go to a brief 'basics' class the next Sunday, and then they'd send over the membership form where you'd confirm your contact information and declare you a member.

Like your post highlights, seeing and experiencing the seasons of the church (specifically lent) is huge. The daily, weekly, and yearly cycle of the church truly is transformative and nothing else compares to it.

Keep it up PacifistAg. You've got the board rooting for you.

nortex97 said:

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No. Not the case.

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Hey man, I assume this comment is against rooting for PacifistAg. You declare that you enjoy orthodoxy but you're missing a huge point if that is the case. You can't truly call yourself a Christian unless you earnestly pray for the whole world to be saved. Our priest has said it over and over. To love someone is to care about their soul.

That includes PacifistAg. That includes everyone who has wronged you. And everyone you declare to have a wrong ordering in their life. We're to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

PacifistAg over here is approaching the church with contrition and humility. Praise God.