The First Crusade, 1099 AD
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Last: 12 hrs ago by The Banned
The only one that worked?
The Fourth Crusade was overkill and an evil Satanic act by Western Catholics & the RCC.
It's been a minute and I'm still not over it.
The Fourth Crusade was overkill and an evil Satanic act by Western Catholics & the RCC.
It's been a minute and I'm still not over it.
Pope Innocent III excommunicated good amounts of crusaders for attacking Zara and Constantinople. He had outlawed the attack on Zara and didn't approve of the Constantinople sacking. Blaming the whole for the actions of some that were already frowned upon is not a fair representation
Yeah, well, that paled by comparison to the sack of Constantinople a couple centuries later, in the 4th crusade. But, papal authority and all that.
Taking back Jerusalem from the muslims was a great thing.
TeddyAg0422 said:
Pope Innocent III excommunicated good amounts of crusaders for attacking Zara and Constantinople. He had outlawed the attack on Zara and didn't approve of the Constantinople sacking. Blaming the whole for the actions of some that were already frowned upon is not a fair representation
Did they ever excommunicate the people who massacred Jews in Germany, sold the children of the Children's Crusade into slavery, or butchered everyone in Jerusalem?
TeddyAg0422 said:
Pope Innocent III excommunicated good amounts of crusaders for attacking Zara and Constantinople. He had outlawed the attack on Zara and didn't approve of the Constantinople sacking. Blaming the whole for the actions of some that were already frowned upon is not a fair representation
He rescinded it and ultimately decided it was good for Church unity
Sapper Redux said:TeddyAg0422 said:
Pope Innocent III excommunicated good amounts of crusaders for attacking Zara and Constantinople. He had outlawed the attack on Zara and didn't approve of the Constantinople sacking. Blaming the whole for the actions of some that were already frowned upon is not a fair representation
Did they ever excommunicate the people who massacred Jews in Germany, sold the children of the Children's Crusade into slavery, or butchered everyone in Jerusalem?
Were the people in Germany butchering Jews largely Catholic or acting on behalf of the Church? Is it known that people dealing with children in the Children's crusade were Catholics?
And why would the Pope excommunicate the crusaders participating in taking back Jerusalem? He sent them there as a defense for Eastern Christians being attacked and denied worship/pilgrimage.
Innocent never approved of it in the first place. He said that attacking would be an offense against fellow Christians, but those crusaders went ahead anyways--then Innocent excommunicated them
TeddyAg0422 said:Sapper Redux said:TeddyAg0422 said:
Pope Innocent III excommunicated good amounts of crusaders for attacking Zara and Constantinople. He had outlawed the attack on Zara and didn't approve of the Constantinople sacking. Blaming the whole for the actions of some that were already frowned upon is not a fair representation
Did they ever excommunicate the people who massacred Jews in Germany, sold the children of the Children's Crusade into slavery, or butchered everyone in Jerusalem?
Were the people in Germany butchering Jews largely Catholic or acting on behalf of the Church? Is it known that people dealing with children in the Children's crusade were Catholics?
And why would the Pope excommunicate the crusaders participating in taking back Jerusalem? He sent them there as a defense for Eastern Christians being attacked and denied worship/pilgrimage.
How many non Catholics do you think there were in Mainz in 1096? A priest named Folkmar was one of the leaders of the massacres. And the children sold into slavery were shipped from Marseilles by French merchants. As for the massacre in 1099, are you saying the Church wanted every man, woman, and child in Jerusalem to be brutally butchered? That was God's demand?
I don't know much about the Children's Crusade, so I won't argue with you there. All I know about it is that while it never received formal condemnation, it was also never approved by the Church.
I find it hard to imagine the Church as an institution would support the bad actions that took place.
I don't know specifics but one reason I can think of as to why the Church would formally condemn (through the form of excommunication) the Zara and Constantinople sacking is because Pope's had promulgated crusades in the past, but they wanted to make sure people knew this wasn't one of those times and this was greatly disapproved of as an act of disobedience by crusaders.
Also, I did a little research on your claim of a priest being involved in the Children's crusade. I can't see any evidence for this besides that it's known to be one of many myths surrounding the situation. What I see are two guys involved that weren't directly related to the Church. If you have any evidence or links to your claim about the priest, I'd be interested in reading about it
I find it hard to imagine the Church as an institution would support the bad actions that took place.
I don't know specifics but one reason I can think of as to why the Church would formally condemn (through the form of excommunication) the Zara and Constantinople sacking is because Pope's had promulgated crusades in the past, but they wanted to make sure people knew this wasn't one of those times and this was greatly disapproved of as an act of disobedience by crusaders.
Also, I did a little research on your claim of a priest being involved in the Children's crusade. I can't see any evidence for this besides that it's known to be one of many myths surrounding the situation. What I see are two guys involved that weren't directly related to the Church. If you have any evidence or links to your claim about the priest, I'd be interested in reading about it
The priest was one of the leaders of the massacre of Jews in the Rhineland. The other major group that slaughtered Jews was led by a monk.
Gotcha. Sorry I misunderstood. Based on my limited google search it looks like the priest's bishop and the Catholic Church hierarchy disapproved and condemned the actions taken by Christian mobs in forced conversion
TeddyAg0422 said:
Gotcha. Sorry I misunderstood. Based on my limited google search it looks like the priest's bishop and the Catholic Church hierarchy disapproved and condemned the actions taken by Christian mobs in forced conversion
Sure. They disapproved. What actual action did they take against the murderers?
I'm not sure what the Church did to the guys after. It could've been handed privately… I'd assume so if the bishop ever dealt with these guys after the matter, but publicly the Church as an institution and its saints and clergyman have consistently expressed support for the Jewish people and their freedom to practice their religion. Popes and saints before and after this massacre echo this. The actions of the few don't reflect the feeling of the Church.
TeddyAg0422 said:
I'm not sure what the Church did to the guys after. It could've been handed privately… I'd assume so if the bishop ever dealt with these guys after the matter, but publicly the Church as an institution and its saints and clergyman have consistently expressed support for the Jewish people and their freedom to practice their religion. Popes and saints before and after this massacre echo this. The actions of the few don't reflect the feeling of the Church.
There were no excommunications in an era where those things were publicly announced. Nor was compensation provided to the Jewish communities. And Jews were not free to practice their religion. They were severely restricted in where they could live, what they could do, and how they could practice their faith. The Jews around Jerusalem (who weren't killed) were held for ransom, murdered, forced to convert, or lost their scrolls and books to the Crusaders. France seized Jewish money to finance the 2nd Crusade and England used the 3rd Crusade as a pretext for expelling the Jews and seizing their wealth.
Sapper Redux said:TeddyAg0422 said:Sapper Redux said:Did they ever excommunicate the people who massacred Jews in Germany, sold the children of the Children's Crusade into slavery, or butchered everyone in Jerusalem?TeddyAg0422 said:
Pope Innocent III excommunicated good amounts of crusaders for attacking Zara and Constantinople. He had outlawed the attack on Zara and didn't approve of the Constantinople sacking. Blaming the whole for the actions of some that were already frowned upon is not a fair representation
Were the people in Germany butchering Jews largely Catholic or acting on behalf of the Church? Is it known that people dealing with children in the Children's crusade were Catholics?
And why would the Pope excommunicate the crusaders participating in taking back Jerusalem? He sent them there as a defense for Eastern Christians being attacked and denied worship/pilgrimage.
How many non Catholics do you think there were in Mainz in 1096? A priest named Folkmar was one of the leaders of the massacres. And the children sold into slavery were shipped from Marseilles by French merchants. As for the massacre in 1099, are you saying the Church wanted every man, woman, and child in Jerusalem to be brutally butchered? That was God's demand?
While there is considerable debate about the exact number, it was almost certainly not every man, woman, and child. No question it was a bad event. However, it has been polemcized by both Muslims and Protestants to make it sound much, much worse.
As a trained academic yourself you should really hold yourself to higher standard then to repeat obvious propaganda as fact.
CrackerJackAg said:
The only one that worked?
The Fourth Crusade was overkill and an evil Satanic act by Western Catholics & the RCC.
It's been a minute and I'm still not over it.
Technically the Sixth Crusade and the Barons' Crusade were both relatively successful and regained control of Jerusalem for about 15 years in the early-mid 1200s.
The recapture of Jersualem in 1243 by Khwarezmian mercenaries paid by the Ayyubids triggered the Seventh Crusade. That was a spectacularly busy time in the Middle East. Mongol invasions were happening at the same time.
Silent For Too Long said:Sapper Redux said:TeddyAg0422 said:Sapper Redux said:Did they ever excommunicate the people who massacred Jews in Germany, sold the children of the Children's Crusade into slavery, or butchered everyone in Jerusalem?TeddyAg0422 said:
Pope Innocent III excommunicated good amounts of crusaders for attacking Zara and Constantinople. He had outlawed the attack on Zara and didn't approve of the Constantinople sacking. Blaming the whole for the actions of some that were already frowned upon is not a fair representation
Were the people in Germany butchering Jews largely Catholic or acting on behalf of the Church? Is it known that people dealing with children in the Children's crusade were Catholics?
And why would the Pope excommunicate the crusaders participating in taking back Jerusalem? He sent them there as a defense for Eastern Christians being attacked and denied worship/pilgrimage.
How many non Catholics do you think there were in Mainz in 1096? A priest named Folkmar was one of the leaders of the massacres. And the children sold into slavery were shipped from Marseilles by French merchants. As for the massacre in 1099, are you saying the Church wanted every man, woman, and child in Jerusalem to be brutally butchered? That was God's demand?
While there is considerable debate about the exact number, it was almost certainly not every man, woman, and child. No question it was a bad event. However, it has been polemcized by both Muslims and Protestants to make it sound much, much worse.
As a trained academic yourself you should really hold yourself to higher standard then to repeat obvious propaganda as fact.
Sigh. The Crusaders themselves said they were wading through blood and that the piles of corpses they burned were beyond count. Yes, not every single individual was killed. Forgive my hyperbole. The massacre was considered extreme even by the lax standards of that era.
Are you confusing the actions by certain people who are also Catholic with Papal directives to all Catholics?
PabloSerna said:
Are you confusing the actions by certain people who are also Catholic with Papal directives to all Catholics?
No. I am pointing out that the Church had tools in 1096 to limit the violence and punish the perpetrators. They didn't use them. There were individual bishops who attempted to protect local Jews, which is noble of them, but they seemed completely unwilling to actually stop the mobs.
Sapper Redux said:PabloSerna said:
Are you confusing the actions by certain people who are also Catholic with Papal directives to all Catholics?
No. I am pointing out that the Church had tools in 1096 to limit the violence and punish the perpetrators. They didn't use them. There were individual bishops who attempted to protect local Jews, which is noble of them, but they seemed completely unwilling to actually stop the mobs.
Because antisemitism was an official part of Catholic dogma until 1965.
Europe was largely consumed by anti-Semitism throughout the Middle Ages, including reformers such as Luther, so I don't think it's 'fair' to pin this on the RCC. Gospel of Matthew, and writings of Paul were often taken to their extreme, by a substantially illiterate public.
Mohammedans, as with Nazi's took up that torch and then some, later on.
Mohammedans, as with Nazi's took up that torch and then some, later on.
lololol... ROFL even.BonfireNerd04 said:Sapper Redux said:PabloSerna said:
Are you confusing the actions by certain people who are also Catholic with Papal directives to all Catholics?
No. I am pointing out that the Church had tools in 1096 to limit the violence and punish the perpetrators. They didn't use them. There were individual bishops who attempted to protect local Jews, which is noble of them, but they seemed completely unwilling to actually stop the mobs.
Because antisemitism was an official part of Catholic dogma until 1965.
nortex97 said:
Europe was largely consumed by anti-Semitism throughout the Middle Ages, including reformers such as Luther, so I don't think it's 'fair' to pin this on the RCC. Gospel of Matthew, and writings of Paul were often taken to their extreme, by a substantially illiterate public.
Mohammedans, as with Nazi's took up that torch and then some, later on.
It's always telling what things people want to credit the Church with and what they want to say, "oh, but the Church was just part of the bigger milieu." There's no real reason for pervasive and violent antisemitism throughout Europe in the absence of Christian dogma. However much people want to work to contextualize the writings of people like Chrysostum, the antisemitism was baked into the theology and emphasized by a number of local figures and events such as Passion plays.
Sapper Redux said:nortex97 said:
Europe was largely consumed by anti-Semitism throughout the Middle Ages, including reformers such as Luther, so I don't think it's 'fair' to pin this on the RCC. Gospel of Matthew, and writings of Paul were often taken to their extreme, by a substantially illiterate public.
Mohammedans, as with Nazi's took up that torch and then some, later on.
It's always telling what things people want to credit the Church with and what they want to say, "oh, but the Church was just part of the bigger milieu." There's no real reason for pervasive and violent antisemitism throughout Europe in the absence of Christian dogma. However much people want to work to contextualize the writings of people like Chrysostum, the antisemitism was baked into the theology and emphasized by a number of local figures and events such as Passion plays.
What's telling is broadly generalizing about 'dogma' radicalizing people across societies hundreds/thousands of years ago, and then dismissing recognized theological doctrines across time, on the basis of such a theory. I think the history of anti-Semitism in Christianity is tragic, and find it more complex perhaps than you do, but in any case don't respect such a sweeping generalization, and attribution of cause:effect.
The tensions in 'proto-Christianity' between/among the followers of Christ/Paul/Peter et al. Vs. other Jews and non-jews are difficult to simplify/reduce to a message board summation of the brief gospels we have today, let alone the sometimes angry writings of Paul and other NT authors/editors. What we know is that it is sad what has become of places such as Tarsus, Ephesus, Alexandria, Antioch, Damascus and of course Constantinople.
nortex97 said:
Europe was largely consumed by anti-Semitism throughout the Middle Ages, including reformers such as Luther, so I don't think it's 'fair' to pin this on the RCC. Gospel of Matthew, and writings of Paul were often taken to their extreme, by a substantially illiterate public.
Mohammedans, as with Nazi's took up that torch and then some, later on.
Don't misunderstand; I never claimed that all antisemites are Catholic. But since the RCC is the oldest and largest denomination of Christianity, it's the historical source of Christian antisemitism that other denominations simply copied.
Of course, the fact that many of the Third Reich's leaders were raised Catholic (even if some of them turned their back on organized religion), including Adolf Hitler himself, as well as Eichmann, Goebbels, Heydrich, Himler, and Hss; became a huge embarrassment for the RCC after WW2.
Quote:
But since the RCC is the oldest and largest denomination of Christianity, it's the historical source of Christian antisemitism that other denominations simply copied.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/martin-luther-quot-the-jews-and-their-lies-quot
BonfireNerd04 said:nortex97 said:
Europe was largely consumed by anti-Semitism throughout the Middle Ages, including reformers such as Luther, so I don't think it's 'fair' to pin this on the RCC. Gospel of Matthew, and writings of Paul were often taken to their extreme, by a substantially illiterate public.
Mohammedans, as with Nazi's took up that torch and then some, later on.
Don't misunderstand; I never claimed that all antisemites are Catholic. But since the RCC is the oldest and largest denomination of Christianity, it's the historical source of Christian antisemitism that other denominations simply copied.
Of course, the fact that many of the Third Reich's leaders were raised Catholic (even if some of them turned their back on organized religion), including Adolf Hitler himself, as well as Eichmann, Goebbels, Heydrich, Himler, and Hss; became a huge embarrassment for the RCC after WW2.
The depth and scope of antisemitism is truly something to behold.
I just completely disagree that the Nazi's of the 30's-40's really are representative of either (a) RCC teachings/dogma/doctrine, or (b) Christianity more broadly. Nothing more to add.
747Ag said:lololol... ROFL even.BonfireNerd04 said:Sapper Redux said:PabloSerna said:
Are you confusing the actions by certain people who are also Catholic with Papal directives to all Catholics?
No. I am pointing out that the Church had tools in 1096 to limit the violence and punish the perpetrators. They didn't use them. There were individual bishops who attempted to protect local Jews, which is noble of them, but they seemed completely unwilling to actually stop the mobs.
Because antisemitism was an official part of Catholic dogma until 1965.
Like the "pro perfidis Judaeis" (for the traitorous Jews) prayer being part of the Good Friday liturgy.
BonfireNerd04 said:747Ag said:lololol... ROFL even.BonfireNerd04 said:Sapper Redux said:PabloSerna said:
Are you confusing the actions by certain people who are also Catholic with Papal directives to all Catholics?
No. I am pointing out that the Church had tools in 1096 to limit the violence and punish the perpetrators. They didn't use them. There were individual bishops who attempted to protect local Jews, which is noble of them, but they seemed completely unwilling to actually stop the mobs.
Because antisemitism was an official part of Catholic dogma until 1965.
Like the "pro perfidis Judaeis" (for the traitorous Jews) prayer being part of the Good Friday liturgy.
What do you call it when God himself is sent personally as the fulfillment of a certain people's entire identity, and is put to death?
Secondly, we're praying for them. On our holiest and most sacred day of the year.
Do the Jews have any prayers for Catholics, in any of their liturgies?
Quo Vadis? said:BonfireNerd04 said:747Ag said:lololol... ROFL even.BonfireNerd04 said:Sapper Redux said:PabloSerna said:
Are you confusing the actions by certain people who are also Catholic with Papal directives to all Catholics?
No. I am pointing out that the Church had tools in 1096 to limit the violence and punish the perpetrators. They didn't use them. There were individual bishops who attempted to protect local Jews, which is noble of them, but they seemed completely unwilling to actually stop the mobs.
Because antisemitism was an official part of Catholic dogma until 1965.
Like the "pro perfidis Judaeis" (for the traitorous Jews) prayer being part of the Good Friday liturgy.
What do you call it when God himself is sent personally as the fulfillment of a certain people's entire identity, and is put to death?
Secondly, we're praying for them. On our holiest and most sacred day of the year.
Do the Jews have any prayers for Catholics, in any of their liturgies?
Jews don't believe they have to convert the world and don't believe non-Jews are eternally damned.
Sapper Redux said:Quo Vadis? said:BonfireNerd04 said:747Ag said:lololol... ROFL even.BonfireNerd04 said:Sapper Redux said:PabloSerna said:
Are you confusing the actions by certain people who are also Catholic with Papal directives to all Catholics?
No. I am pointing out that the Church had tools in 1096 to limit the violence and punish the perpetrators. They didn't use them. There were individual bishops who attempted to protect local Jews, which is noble of them, but they seemed completely unwilling to actually stop the mobs.
Because antisemitism was an official part of Catholic dogma until 1965.
Like the "pro perfidis Judaeis" (for the traitorous Jews) prayer being part of the Good Friday liturgy.
What do you call it when God himself is sent personally as the fulfillment of a certain people's entire identity, and is put to death?
Secondly, we're praying for them. On our holiest and most sacred day of the year.
Do the Jews have any prayers for Catholics, in any of their liturgies?
Jews don't believe they have to convert the world and don't believe non-Jews are eternally damned.
Depends on which books you read doesn't it?
BonfireNerd04 said:747Ag said:lololol... ROFL even.BonfireNerd04 said:Sapper Redux said:PabloSerna said:
Are you confusing the actions by certain people who are also Catholic with Papal directives to all Catholics?
No. I am pointing out that the Church had tools in 1096 to limit the violence and punish the perpetrators. They didn't use them. There were individual bishops who attempted to protect local Jews, which is noble of them, but they seemed completely unwilling to actually stop the mobs.
Because antisemitism was an official part of Catholic dogma until 1965.
Like the "pro perfidis Judaeis" (for the traitorous Jews) prayer being part of the Good Friday liturgy.
From the pre-1955 missale... You go with one translation while we have a different one.
Let us pray also for the faithless Jews [perfidis Judaeis]: that Almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts; so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. Almighty and eternal God, who dost not exclude from Thy mercy even Jewish faithlessness [Judaicam perfidiam]: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. Amen.
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