I think this shows pretty well what Jordan Peterson means when he talks about what "believing" in God actually means

Good stuff. Belief is more than mere mental assent, although mental assent is an element of belief.

Matthew 7:21-23 -

"Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.' (Matthew 7:21-23, RSV-CE)

Matthew 25:31-46 - [too long to drop here]

Luke 6:46-49 -

"Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you? Every one who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you what he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep, and laid the foundation upon rock; and when a flood arose, the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because it had been well built. But he who hears and does not do them is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation; against which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great." (Luke 6:46-49, RSV-CE)

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

Here St. John summarizes it beautifully - It isn't an either/or thing...It's both...

Thaddeus73 said:

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John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

Here St. John summarizes it beautifully - It isn't an either/or thing...It's both...

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I think that can be read to equate "belief" and "obey."

Works of the law -- Circumcision, only eating kosher foods, don't touch the dead--are no longer valid in the New Covenant. Good Works - Almsgiving, helping the poor, visiting the sick, visiting the prisoners, giving food and water and clothes to the poor, etc.-- are a very necessary component of our faith in action. Matthew 25:31-46 and James 2 make that very clear.

Elmer Dobkins said:

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For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

- Ephesians 2:8-10

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Just to be clear, I think we can all agree with this, as long as we recognize that Paul's reference to works in verse 9 is a reference to adherence to the laws of Moses, not good works generally. This is substantiated by the contrast of his immediate reference to good works in verse 10.

It is both. I believe whole-heartedly in sola fide, and I believe that saving faith manifests in obedience/good works. This is the heart of the issue from James 2.

Quote:

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James 2:1426
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believeand shudder!
20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"and he was called a friend of God.
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

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Works justify, or prove, that one's faith is genuine.

The following I wrote in seminary related to this topic, and maybe someone will find it helpful...

James 2:23 finds itself in a passage (2:14-26) where James is discussing the relationship between faith and works. He is answering his own questions given in verse 14, "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?" James' primary concern in this section is not how one becomes righteous before God, but rather that faith, if it is a genuine, saving faith, will necessarily manifest itself in good works. To illustrate this point, James says, "If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?" The implied answer to this question is given in the next verse: "So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." James argues that faith without works is dead, and therefore it is not a genuine, saving faith.

James continues with another illustration, this time from the story of Abraham, to further emphasize his point "that faith apart from works is useless" (2:20). In verse 21, he writes, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?" James clarifies in the following verse that Abraham's faith was active along with his works, and his faith was completed, or fulfilled, by his works. The verb used for "completed" in verse 22 is telos, which implies that the action was brought to its intended outcome or goal. This means that the intended outcome of saving faith is good works. This is what James means when he wrote in verse 21 that, "Abraham was justified by works…" Abraham's faith was not a mere intellectual assent, but rather one that actively obeyed God.

This then brings James to write in verse 23 that "the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"and he was called a friend of God." Abraham's works seen in Genesis 22 proved that his faith, expressed in Genesis 15, was genuine. Abraham's works verified the authenticity of, or "justified" (verse 21), his faith. Verse 23 is necessarily located at this point of the letter because it grounds the believer in the truth that one is counted righteous before God by faith alone, but that faith is always accompanied by obedience and good works. 2:23 is essential for this letter because it is surrounded by moral exhortations and imperatives which must be obeyed, but with the correct understanding of the relationship between faith and works. The one who does good works in faith will be considered a "friend of God" just as Abraham.

Thaddeus73 said:

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Love is more important than faith, per St. Paul....1 Corinthians 13:13: "So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love."

In my dealings with evangelization, I have found that a lot of Christians lead with their head knowledge of the bible, rather than with love and with their heart. While head knowledge is good, leading with the heart, I think is always the best....

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Agree.

I always find the people at churches have the fewest fruit.

AfraidNot said:

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I always find the people at churches have the fewest fruit.

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It's probably because of the area of town you live in

I find that "I obey God" typically leads to "I obey what my religious group tells me to do". So... no thanks.

Dan Carlin said:

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I find that "I obey God" typically leads to "I obey what my religious group tells me to do". So... no thanks.

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By religious group, do you mean your church?
If so, you need to find a different church. I had a much better experience after attending a non-denominational bible church.

My church explains it in a simple way. Be more like Jesus. Every day you try to do things to make you more like Jesus. Yes, I fail a lot , but the end goal is clear.

What level of obedience does a person need to achieve in order to be on the less trodden path in the picture? Clearly it is not perfect obedience. Clearly it is also not perfect disobedience. Where is the line?

The answer to that question is that if you are looking for the line, and doing just enough, you pretty much missed the point. Completely ignoring judgement and escutology, if you are trying to do just enough to make it to heaven, you are not accepting the full gift of faith that is available through the salvation that Christ brings.

BusterAg said:

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What level of obedience does a person need to achieve in order to be on the less trodden path in the picture? Clearly it is not perfect obedience. Clearly it is also not perfect disobedience. Where is the line?

The answer to that question is that if you are looking for the line, and doing just enough, you pretty much missed the point. Completely ignoring judgement and escutology, if you are trying to do just enough to make it to heaven, you are not accepting the full gift of faith that is available through the salvation that Christ brings.

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Repentance for the wrongs you've done, the rights you've left undone, and acknowledging your even your repentance may be imperfect as you could always fall to temptation again is a "perfect" obedience, in a sense. Even the saints sinned. But their acknowledgement of that sin and desire to avoid it happening again are a hallmark of saintliness.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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tacosalpastor said:

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It is both. I believe whole-heartedly in sola fide, and I believe that saving faith manifests in obedience/good works. This is the heart of the issue from James 2.

Quote:

---

James 2:1426
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believeand shudder!
20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"and he was called a friend of God.
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

---

Works justify, or prove, that one's faith is genuine.

The following I wrote in seminary related to this topic, and maybe someone will find it helpful...

James 2:23 finds itself in a passage (2:14-26) where James is discussing the relationship between faith and works. He is answering his own questions given in verse 14, "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?" James' primary concern in this section is not how one becomes righteous before God, but rather that faith, if it is a genuine, saving faith, will necessarily manifest itself in good works. To illustrate this point, James says, "If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?" The implied answer to this question is given in the next verse: "So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." James argues that faith without works is dead, and therefore it is not a genuine, saving faith.

James continues with another illustration, this time from the story of Abraham, to further emphasize his point "that faith apart from works is useless" (2:20). In verse 21, he writes, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?" James clarifies in the following verse that Abraham's faith was active along with his works, and his faith was completed, or fulfilled, by his works. The verb used for "completed" in verse 22 is telos, which implies that the action was brought to its intended outcome or goal. This means that the intended outcome of saving faith is good works. This is what James means when he wrote in verse 21 that, "Abraham was justified by works…" Abraham's faith was not a mere intellectual assent, but rather one that actively obeyed God.

This then brings James to write in verse 23 that "the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"and he was called a friend of God." Abraham's works seen in Genesis 22 proved that his faith, expressed in Genesis 15, was genuine. Abraham's works verified the authenticity of, or "justified" (verse 21), his faith. Verse 23 is necessarily located at this point of the letter because it grounds the believer in the truth that one is counted righteous before God by faith alone, but that faith is always accompanied by obedience and good works. 2:23 is essential for this letter because it is surrounded by moral exhortations and imperatives which must be obeyed, but with the correct understanding of the relationship between faith and works. The one who does good works in faith will be considered a "friend of God" just as Abraham.

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I know this is going nowhere but it just has to be stated: the simplest way to understand what James said is to simply accept what he says: it is not faith ALONE that justifies. Whatever else he says the one thing that is unambiguously clear is that James says faith alone does not justify. This is precisely what he says. This necessarily means one of two things: 1. Nothing justifies or 2. faith in addition to something else justifies. 1. is not an option if you want to believe that justification is possible.

So, this begs the question of what else in addition to faith does justify? Does James say anything about that?

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No. You can't isolate one passage and not reconcile it with the totality of Scripture. The context of James 2 is clearly the results of faith. This is plain to read. Verse 18 makes this emphatically clear that James' thesis is that faith works. It repents and it leads to holiness. Faith is distinguished from belief in that it trusts. Trust is manifested by our actions. This is why Abraham is justified by faith, because he believed God in way that led him to trust, but faith preceded his offering of Isaac.

Your same hermeneutic falls apart in Romans 4:1-6. Your take on James 2 cannot be reconciled with Paul in Romans which is because they are talking about two different things.

Simply put, Abraham was counted as righteous by his faith (Romans 4) and demonstrated his faith by his works (James 2). One is cause, the other is effect.

AfraidNot said:

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I always find the people at churches have the fewest fruit.

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A church by definition is an assembly of believers; those who are in the New Covenant.

A church producing little fruit is likely not a church in the way Christ talks about it. If you are looking for a fruitful church, I have no doubt someone here could help point you in the right direction.

Bob_Ag said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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tacosalpastor said:

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It is both. I believe whole-heartedly in sola fide, and I believe that saving faith manifests in obedience/good works. This is the heart of the issue from James 2.

Quote:

---

James 2:1426
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believeand shudder!
20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"and he was called a friend of God.
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

---

Works justify, or prove, that one's faith is genuine.

The following I wrote in seminary related to this topic, and maybe someone will find it helpful...

James 2:23 finds itself in a passage (2:14-26) where James is discussing the relationship between faith and works. He is answering his own questions given in verse 14, "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?" James' primary concern in this section is not how one becomes righteous before God, but rather that faith, if it is a genuine, saving faith, will necessarily manifest itself in good works. To illustrate this point, James says, "If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?" The implied answer to this question is given in the next verse: "So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." James argues that faith without works is dead, and therefore it is not a genuine, saving faith.

James continues with another illustration, this time from the story of Abraham, to further emphasize his point "that faith apart from works is useless" (2:20). In verse 21, he writes, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?" James clarifies in the following verse that Abraham's faith was active along with his works, and his faith was completed, or fulfilled, by his works. The verb used for "completed" in verse 22 is telos, which implies that the action was brought to its intended outcome or goal. This means that the intended outcome of saving faith is good works. This is what James means when he wrote in verse 21 that, "Abraham was justified by works…" Abraham's faith was not a mere intellectual assent, but rather one that actively obeyed God.

This then brings James to write in verse 23 that "the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"and he was called a friend of God." Abraham's works seen in Genesis 22 proved that his faith, expressed in Genesis 15, was genuine. Abraham's works verified the authenticity of, or "justified" (verse 21), his faith. Verse 23 is necessarily located at this point of the letter because it grounds the believer in the truth that one is counted righteous before God by faith alone, but that faith is always accompanied by obedience and good works. 2:23 is essential for this letter because it is surrounded by moral exhortations and imperatives which must be obeyed, but with the correct understanding of the relationship between faith and works. The one who does good works in faith will be considered a "friend of God" just as Abraham.

---

I know this is going nowhere but it just has to be stated: the simplest way to understand what James said is to simply accept what he says: it is not faith ALONE that justifies. Whatever else he says the one thing that is unambiguously clear is that James says faith alone does not justify. This is precisely what he says. This necessarily means one of two things: 1. Nothing justifies or 2. faith in addition to something else justifies. 1. is not an option if you want to believe that justification is possible.

So, this begs the question of what else in addition to faith does justify? Does James say anything about that?

---

No. You can't isolate one passage and not reconcile it with the totality of Scripture. The context of James 2 is clearly the results of faith. This is plain to read. Verse 18 makes this emphatically clear that James' thesis is that faith works. It repents and it leads to holiness. Faith is distinguished from belief in that it trusts. Trust is manifested by our actions. This is why Abraham is justified by faith, because he believed God in way that led him to trust, but faith preceded his offering of Isaac.

Your same hermeneutic falls apart in Romans 4:1-6. Your take on James 2 cannot be reconciled with Paul in Romans which is because they are talking about two different things.

Simply put, Abraham was counted as righteous by his faith (Romans 4) and demonstrated his faith by his works (James 2). One is cause, the other is effect.

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The apparent tension between James 2 and Romans 4 is resolved by understanding that justification is by grace through faith, which necessarily includes works as its fruit and evidence. Paul in Romans 4 emphasizes that Abraham was justified by faith apart from works of the law (Rom 4:2-5), meaning no one is saved by the Mosaic Law or human effort alone. This grace is a free gift, not earned. Paul emphasizes that we are justified by faith apart from WORKS OF THE LAW. He uses Abraham as an example, highlighting that Abraham's faith was "credited to him as righteousness" (Romans 4:3). Paul's focus here is on the fact that no human action can earn the grace of justification; it is a gift from God, received through faith.

James 2:24 states, "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." This does not contradict Paul but complements him: faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Works are the living expression of faith, cooperating with grace. So faith initiates justification, but works complete and manifest it. Following the initial grace of justification, faith and works are necessary but neither faith alone nor works alone are sufficient. James 2 stresses that faith without works is dead. He also uses Abraham as an example, noting that Abraham's faith was completed by his works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar (James 2:21-22). James is not contradicting Paul but is emphasizing that true faith is evidenced by works. A genuine faith naturally expresses itself in acts of love and obedience to God's commandments.

Salvation is by grace through faith, working in love (Gal 5:6). In sum, Paul and James speak to different aspects of one reality: justification is by grace through faith, which must be alive and active in charity, producing good works.

We might think of it like a tree: faith is the root that nourishes the tree, and good works are the branches that bear fruit. Without roots, there can be no branches; without branches and fruit, the purpose of the tree is unfulfilled. Both are necessary components of a vibrant life in Christ, but neither alone is sufficient

I was meditating on this topic this morning and I was struck by the idea that once God gives us that initial gift of faith, we are in a relationship like a feedback loop with our Creator. The more we respond to his gift of grace and do the good works his grace enables, the deeper we are able to go into our relationship with him, and the deeper we go into our relationship, the more we become conformed to Christ and the more we become conformed to Christ, the more we become able to respond to the grace he offers us and do good the good works he calls us to perform, and the more we are able to respond to the grace he offers us and do those things the more we become conformed to Christ, and the more we become conformed to Christ, the deeper we are able to go, and so on and so on.

So as long as we don't sever that relationship we are living through the process of theosis, becoming ever more conformed to Jesus and it is the things that we do like what he describes in Matthew 25 (clothe the naked, feed the hungry, etc) that transform us more and more into his likeness but that's only possible because he first came to us and have us the gift of faith. Jesus will reward us for our good deeds but when he does so he'll be crowning his own works.

That is the relationship of works to faith.

I confess to having difficulty of late with the part about obeying God. After what happened with Charlie Kirk and reading the horrific celebratory posts of hateful atheists, I myself have been filled with rage and hatred. I am trying to remind myself that this horrific evil is only temporary and that I must stay true to my faith and trust in God. Being a faithful Christian would be so much easier if I wasn't tested so much but maybe that's the whole idea.

Thaddeus73 said:

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Loving God with your whole heart, mind, soul and strength, and loving your neighbor as yourself should be the daily job of each and every Christian. This manifests itself in different ways - Giving alms to the poor (sacrificially), forgiving everyone who has harmed us, from the heart, being meek and humble instead of proud and arrogant, praying mentally (a lot), instructing the ignorant, reading your bible daily, correcting the sinner, being a servant to ALL instead of being served, etc.

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This is so true. Fruits of the Spirit are peace, love, joy, patience, meekness, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, and self control.
By their fruits ye shall know them.

Patriot25 said:

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I confess to having difficulty of late with the part about obeying God. After what happened with Charlie Kirk and reading the horrific celebratory posts of hateful atheists, I myself have been filled with rage and hatred. I am trying to remind myself that this horrific evil is only temporary and that I must stay true to my faith and trust in God. Being a faithful Christian would be so much easier if I wasn't tested so much but maybe that's the whole idea.

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Ephesians 6 12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realm.

Pray for them and let God handle it.

Quote:

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I confess to having difficulty of late with the part about obeying God. After what happened with Charlie Kirk and reading the horrific celebratory posts of hateful atheists, I myself have been filled with rage and hatred. I am trying to remind myself that this horrific evil is only temporary and that I must stay true to my faith and trust in God. Being a faithful Christian would be so much easier if I wasn't tested so much but maybe that's the whole idea.

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I'm sure the apostles and Mother Mary felt the same way at the unjust crucifixion...

Thaddeus73 said:

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Quote:

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I confess to having difficulty of late with the part about obeying God. After what happened with Charlie Kirk and reading the horrific celebratory posts of hateful atheists, I myself have been filled with rage and hatred. I am trying to remind myself that this horrific evil is only temporary and that I must stay true to my faith and trust in God. Being a faithful Christian would be so much easier if I wasn't tested so much but maybe that's the whole idea.

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I'm sure the apostles and Mother Mary felt the same way at the unjust crucifixion...

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The first 300 years of Christianity were replete with opportunities for growth through trials and suffering.

Thaddeus73 said:

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Quote:

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I confess to having difficulty of late with the part about obeying God. After what happened with Charlie Kirk and reading the horrific celebratory posts of hateful atheists, I myself have been filled with rage and hatred. I am trying to remind myself that this horrific evil is only temporary and that I must stay true to my faith and trust in God. Being a faithful Christian would be so much easier if I wasn't tested so much but maybe that's the whole idea.

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I'm sure the apostles and Mother Mary felt the same way at the unjust crucifixion...

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I'm not so sure they felt "rage" but fear- at least the Apostles, Mary not so much.

ETA: isn't this why Jesus told Peter to put down his sword?