Is Satan limited in his knowledge? What he did lead to his "defeat."

Are angels omniscient? I would suppose not.

Did GOD keep his plan hidden from all the angels?

(My apologies if this is a rambling question. It just hit me to ask and I'm not sure if I'm even asking the correct question.)

I'm leaning toward the fact my understanding of Satan is way off.

Too much "Divine Comedy", "Paradise Lost" and Hollywood movies.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

They may have limited knowledge, however, what they know, they know perfectly.

---

Which is also why there is no possibility of redemption for those who said "non servium" to God and why the other angels were immediately confirmed in grace and welcomed into the beatific vision.

---

I don't understand all of those words you just used, but the reason all of the angels aren't fallen is because they no longer have a will. There's only one perfect will. Every other will is in rebellion.

Not buying it. But I get it. Catholics can have multiple sinless beings. If Mary can be sinless, it's no big thing for angels, I reckon. But no, I'll never agree with that.

94chem said:

---

Not buying it. But I get it. Catholics can have multiple sinless beings. If Mary can be sinless, it's no big thing for angels, I reckon. But no, I'll never agree with that.

---

Curious what you base your angelology on?

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

94chem said:

---

Not buying it. But I get it. Catholics can have multiple sinless beings. If Mary can be sinless, it's no big thing for angels, I reckon. But no, I'll never agree with that.

---

Curious what you base your angelology on?

---

Basically a lot of smart theologians have been arguing for centuries about how the "sin nature" gets passed down. They use terms like "original sin" and "federal headship," and a bunch of other non-sensical naval-gazing mumbo jumbo (or in your case hocus pocus). The reality is that there is only one perfect will in the universe. Every other being is imperfect. Is the will bound? Is it free? Is it free but chooses to be bound? Who cares? If it's not perfect, it inevitably and inexorably moves away from its creator and sins.

For men, the failing of the will is dealt with by Christ's sacrifice, but for angels, there is no atonement. If they have a will, they're screwed.

Sure, it may be true that by one man sin entered the world, but it was also inevitable.

Straight from the Bible is where I get it. When I read the Genesis story, the first question I ask is what it teaches us about God. This is how every verse of the Bible should be read. We see that he is perfect and holy. He creates with his will, and for his pleasure. When God is the central focus, the question of the Fall - whether it be angels or men - is not about HOW, but rather WHY. Because: God's will is the only perfect (free) will in the universe. To suggest otherwise is never even contemplated in scripture.

Now, if you want to say that angels are already in the eternal state, and therefore incapable of sin, go ahead. But no being capable of sin can remain sinless.

Whether Jesus was capable of sin is another issue, I suppose. I do not believe he was, because God's will cannot be in conflict with itself. Rather, he got to experience what this world does to people who obey God perfectly.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

94chem said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

They may have limited knowledge, however, what they know, they know perfectly.

---

Which is also why there is no possibility of redemption for those who said "non servium" to God and why the other angels were immediately confirmed in grace and welcomed into the beatific vision.

---

I don't understand all of those words you just used, but the reason all of the angels aren't fallen is because they no longer have a will. There's only one perfect will. Every other will is in rebellion.

---

The angels still possess free will, just as they did at the moment of their creation. However, it is essential to understand the nature of their will. At their creation, angels were endowed with free will and faced a fundamental choice to either serve God or reject Him. This choice was definitive and irrevocable. Those who chose to serve God became the heavenly angels, while those who rejected Him became the fallen angels, led by Satan.

After this initial choice, the will of each angel became fixed. Heavenly angels are confirmed in grace and continually choose to serve and worship God. Their wills are aligned perfectly with God's will, and they do not sin. Angels' choices are always in harmony with God's plan for creation.

So the angels (as opposed to the fallen angels) have free will and NEVER rebelled against God. They are confirmed in grace such that they always do God's will and that makes them perfectly free because true freedom is not merely the ability to choose whatever one desires without constraint, but rather the capacity to choose the good, to act in accordance with God's will, and to align oneself with the truth of one's nature as created by God. In that sense angels are perfectly free creatures.

---

The only way I buy this is if all angles are human. After all, an angel is just a messenger from God. It would not be wrong to call all of the prophets angels, as their entire job was delivering messages from God. Could God use supernatural entities as messengers? Sure he could. IIRC though, every instance of an angel seen in the Bible outside of a vision appeared as human. So I guess in that case angels would have free will as long as they are human.

I don't buy that supernatural entities have free will. Man was made in God's image, and God's existence is defined more than anything by His irresistible Will. Therefore, man being the image of God means that man has limited will. It's not like we're patterned after his physical form as God the Father doesn't have one. Nowhere do we see supernatural entities incontrovertibly sinning against God, which is what would prove they had free will

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

94chem said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

They may have limited knowledge, however, what they know, they know perfectly.

---

Which is also why there is no possibility of redemption for those who said "non servium" to God and why the other angels were immediately confirmed in grace and welcomed into the beatific vision.

---

I don't understand all of those words you just used, but the reason all of the angels aren't fallen is because they no longer have a will. There's only one perfect will. Every other will is in rebellion.

---

The angels still possess free will, just as they did at the moment of their creation. However, it is essential to understand the nature of their will. At their creation, angels were endowed with free will and faced a fundamental choice to either serve God or reject Him. This choice was definitive and irrevocable. Those who chose to serve God became the heavenly angels, while those who rejected Him became the fallen angels, led by Satan.

After this initial choice, the will of each angel became fixed. Heavenly angels are confirmed in grace and continually choose to serve and worship God. Their wills are aligned perfectly with God's will, and they do not sin. Angels' choices are always in harmony with God's plan for creation.

So the angels (as opposed to the fallen angels) have free will and NEVER rebelled against God. They are confirmed in grace such that they always do God's will and that makes them perfectly free because true freedom is not merely the ability to choose whatever one desires without constraint, but rather the capacity to choose the good, to act in accordance with God's will, and to align oneself with the truth of one's nature as created by God. In that sense angels are perfectly free creatures.

---

The only way I buy this is if all angles are human. After all, an angel is just a messenger from God. It would not be wrong to call all of the prophets angels, as their entire job was delivering messages from God. Could God use supernatural entities as messengers? Sure he could. IIRC though, every instance of an angel seen in the Bible outside of a vision appeared as human. So I guess in that case angels would have free will as long as they are human.

I don't buy that supernatural entities have free will. Man was made in God's image, and God's existence is defined more than anything by His irresistible Will. Therefore, man being the image of God means that man has limited will. It's not like we're patterned after his physical form as God the Father doesn't have one. Nowhere do we see supernatural entities incontrovertibly sinning against God, which is what would prove they had free will

---

So are you and 94chem saying that God made Satan because he wanted sin and evil to enter into the world? Satan rebelled and instigated the fall of mankind. If God made him with no will, it means he was created with this express purpose in mind. This is a step even Calvin would not take, even if his view of monergistic salvation required it.

94chem said:

---

Straight from the Bible is where I get it. When I read the Genesis story, the first question I ask is what it teaches us about God. This is how every verse of the Bible should be read. We see that he is perfect and holy. He creates with his will, and for his pleasure. When God is the central focus, the question of the Fall - whether it be angels or men - is not about HOW, but rather WHY. Because: God's will is the only perfect (free) will in the universe. To suggest otherwise is never even contemplated in scripture.

Now, if you want to say that angels are already in the eternal state, and therefore incapable of sin, go ahead. But no being capable of sin can remain sinless.

Whether Jesus was capable of sin is another issue, I suppose. I do not believe he was, because God's will cannot be in conflict with itself. Rather, he got to experience what this world does to people who obey God perfectly.

---

So God wants Satan, the other fallen angels and a good chunk of humanity to be in hell forever? This is what He wanted all along? Whether you or I end up in hell it's simply because he wanted you or I there?

" the reason all of the angels aren't fallen is because they no longer have a will."

We (RCC) believe that they (angels) do have a will and that is why Lucifer, the highest angel created by God, chose to not serve in God's plan for the salvation of man. Michael, a lower ranking angel, chose to serve and led other angels against Lucifer and other angels who joined Lucifer, in a battle.

Something about angels is their knowledge and how they understand things differently than mankind. They are not all knowing, only God is, however, Aquinas writes that when they know something- they know it perfectly. Therefore, Lucifer fully knew what "he" was doing and chose to not serve anyway. That is pride.

The Banned said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

94chem said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

They may have limited knowledge, however, what they know, they know perfectly.

---

Which is also why there is no possibility of redemption for those who said "non servium" to God and why the other angels were immediately confirmed in grace and welcomed into the beatific vision.

---

I don't understand all of those words you just used, but the reason all of the angels aren't fallen is because they no longer have a will. There's only one perfect will. Every other will is in rebellion.

---

The angels still possess free will, just as they did at the moment of their creation. However, it is essential to understand the nature of their will. At their creation, angels were endowed with free will and faced a fundamental choice to either serve God or reject Him. This choice was definitive and irrevocable. Those who chose to serve God became the heavenly angels, while those who rejected Him became the fallen angels, led by Satan.

After this initial choice, the will of each angel became fixed. Heavenly angels are confirmed in grace and continually choose to serve and worship God. Their wills are aligned perfectly with God's will, and they do not sin. Angels' choices are always in harmony with God's plan for creation.

So the angels (as opposed to the fallen angels) have free will and NEVER rebelled against God. They are confirmed in grace such that they always do God's will and that makes them perfectly free because true freedom is not merely the ability to choose whatever one desires without constraint, but rather the capacity to choose the good, to act in accordance with God's will, and to align oneself with the truth of one's nature as created by God. In that sense angels are perfectly free creatures.

---

The only way I buy this is if all angles are human. After all, an angel is just a messenger from God. It would not be wrong to call all of the prophets angels, as their entire job was delivering messages from God. Could God use supernatural entities as messengers? Sure he could. IIRC though, every instance of an angel seen in the Bible outside of a vision appeared as human. So I guess in that case angels would have free will as long as they are human.

I don't buy that supernatural entities have free will. Man was made in God's image, and God's existence is defined more than anything by His irresistible Will. Therefore, man being the image of God means that man has limited will. It's not like we're patterned after his physical form as God the Father doesn't have one. Nowhere do we see supernatural entities incontrovertibly sinning against God, which is what would prove they had free will

---

So are you and 94chem saying that God made Satan because he wanted sin and evil to enter into the world? Satan rebelled and instigated the fall of mankind. If God made him with no will, it means he was created with this express purpose in mind. This is a step even Calvin would not take, even if his view of monergistic salvation required it.

---

In short, yes. Free will requires an alternative, and that alternative is sin. It does nothing to give men will but not give them the opportunity or motivation to choose any differently than God's Will. It's the same reason that God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden in the first place. If God never wanted sin to be possible, it would have been easy to just not put the Tree there

94chem said:

---

Straight from the Bible is where I get it. When I read the Genesis story, the first question I ask is what it teaches us about God. This is how every verse of the Bible should be read. We see that he is perfect and holy. He creates with his will, and for his pleasure. When God is the central focus, the question of the Fall - whether it be angels or men - is not about HOW, but rather WHY. Because: God's will is the only perfect (free) will in the universe. To suggest otherwise is never even contemplated in scripture.

Now, if you want to say that angels are already in the eternal state, and therefore incapable of sin, go ahead. But no being capable of sin can remain sinless.

Whether Jesus was capable of sin is another issue, I suppose. I do not believe he was, because God's will cannot be in conflict with itself. Rather, he got to experience what this world does to people who obey God perfectly.

---

So in other words, that's your subjective opinion based on how you personally interpret and understand the scriptures that were canonized by the church Christ established? Angelology of the church of 94chem.

That's fine you do you.

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

The Banned said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

94chem said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

They may have limited knowledge, however, what they know, they know perfectly.

---

Which is also why there is no possibility of redemption for those who said "non servium" to God and why the other angels were immediately confirmed in grace and welcomed into the beatific vision.

---

I don't understand all of those words you just used, but the reason all of the angels aren't fallen is because they no longer have a will. There's only one perfect will. Every other will is in rebellion.

---

The angels still possess free will, just as they did at the moment of their creation. However, it is essential to understand the nature of their will. At their creation, angels were endowed with free will and faced a fundamental choice to either serve God or reject Him. This choice was definitive and irrevocable. Those who chose to serve God became the heavenly angels, while those who rejected Him became the fallen angels, led by Satan.

After this initial choice, the will of each angel became fixed. Heavenly angels are confirmed in grace and continually choose to serve and worship God. Their wills are aligned perfectly with God's will, and they do not sin. Angels' choices are always in harmony with God's plan for creation.

So the angels (as opposed to the fallen angels) have free will and NEVER rebelled against God. They are confirmed in grace such that they always do God's will and that makes them perfectly free because true freedom is not merely the ability to choose whatever one desires without constraint, but rather the capacity to choose the good, to act in accordance with God's will, and to align oneself with the truth of one's nature as created by God. In that sense angels are perfectly free creatures.

---

The only way I buy this is if all angles are human. After all, an angel is just a messenger from God. It would not be wrong to call all of the prophets angels, as their entire job was delivering messages from God. Could God use supernatural entities as messengers? Sure he could. IIRC though, every instance of an angel seen in the Bible outside of a vision appeared as human. So I guess in that case angels would have free will as long as they are human.

I don't buy that supernatural entities have free will. Man was made in God's image, and God's existence is defined more than anything by His irresistible Will. Therefore, man being the image of God means that man has limited will. It's not like we're patterned after his physical form as God the Father doesn't have one. Nowhere do we see supernatural entities incontrovertibly sinning against God, which is what would prove they had free will

---

So are you and 94chem saying that God made Satan because he wanted sin and evil to enter into the world? Satan rebelled and instigated the fall of mankind. If God made him with no will, it means he was created with this express purpose in mind. This is a step even Calvin would not take, even if his view of monergistic salvation required it.

---

In short, yes. Free will requires an alternative, and that alternative is sin. It does nothing to give men will but not give them the opportunity or motivation to choose any differently than God's Will. It's the same reason that God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden in the first place. If God never wanted sin to be possible, it would have been easy to just not put the Tree there

---

The Christian understanding of evil is much like the way blindness does not add something to the eye but deprives it of a good, so it is with evil generally. This view was utterly contrary to pagan theories, which presumed either two principles spirit is good while matter is evil or two deities a god of good and a god of evil at constant war. The Christian view, by contrast, maintains that all God has made is originally good, and evil is a shadow phenomenon, arising as a privation or corruption or twisting of this original goodness.

The reason God gave us free will is so that we could freely choose to love him. Authentic love must be freely expressed.

But I don't know how this is relevant to what happened with the angels. They are spirit beings, created by God and given sufficient knowledge to make a fully informed, singular choice to either love God or not love God. Humans were/are given a different choice.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

The Banned said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

94chem said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

They may have limited knowledge, however, what they know, they know perfectly.

---

Which is also why there is no possibility of redemption for those who said "non servium" to God and why the other angels were immediately confirmed in grace and welcomed into the beatific vision.

---

I don't understand all of those words you just used, but the reason all of the angels aren't fallen is because they no longer have a will. There's only one perfect will. Every other will is in rebellion.

---

The angels still possess free will, just as they did at the moment of their creation. However, it is essential to understand the nature of their will. At their creation, angels were endowed with free will and faced a fundamental choice to either serve God or reject Him. This choice was definitive and irrevocable. Those who chose to serve God became the heavenly angels, while those who rejected Him became the fallen angels, led by Satan.

After this initial choice, the will of each angel became fixed. Heavenly angels are confirmed in grace and continually choose to serve and worship God. Their wills are aligned perfectly with God's will, and they do not sin. Angels' choices are always in harmony with God's plan for creation.

So the angels (as opposed to the fallen angels) have free will and NEVER rebelled against God. They are confirmed in grace such that they always do God's will and that makes them perfectly free because true freedom is not merely the ability to choose whatever one desires without constraint, but rather the capacity to choose the good, to act in accordance with God's will, and to align oneself with the truth of one's nature as created by God. In that sense angels are perfectly free creatures.

---

The only way I buy this is if all angles are human. After all, an angel is just a messenger from God. It would not be wrong to call all of the prophets angels, as their entire job was delivering messages from God. Could God use supernatural entities as messengers? Sure he could. IIRC though, every instance of an angel seen in the Bible outside of a vision appeared as human. So I guess in that case angels would have free will as long as they are human.

I don't buy that supernatural entities have free will. Man was made in God's image, and God's existence is defined more than anything by His irresistible Will. Therefore, man being the image of God means that man has limited will. It's not like we're patterned after his physical form as God the Father doesn't have one. Nowhere do we see supernatural entities incontrovertibly sinning against God, which is what would prove they had free will

---

So are you and 94chem saying that God made Satan because he wanted sin and evil to enter into the world? Satan rebelled and instigated the fall of mankind. If God made him with no will, it means he was created with this express purpose in mind. This is a step even Calvin would not take, even if his view of monergistic salvation required it.

---

In short, yes. Free will requires an alternative, and that alternative is sin. It does nothing to give men will but not give them the opportunity or motivation to choose any differently than God's Will. It's the same reason that God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden in the first place. If God never wanted sin to be possible, it would have been easy to just not put the Tree there

---

The Christian understanding of evil is much like the way blindness does not add something to the eye but deprives it of a good, so it is with evil generally. This view was utterly contrary to pagan theories, which presumed either two principles spirit is good while matter is evil or two deities a god of good and a god of evil at constant war. The Christian view, by contrast, maintains that all God has made is originally good, and evil is a shadow phenomenon, arising as a privation or corruption or twisting of this original goodness.

The reason God gave us free will is so that we could freely choose to love him. Authentic love must be freely expressed.

But I don't know how this is relevant to what happened with the angels. They are spirit beings, created by God and given sufficient knowledge to make a fully informed, singular choice to either love God or not love God. Humans were/are given a different choice.

---

I agree with all but the last paragraph. We have free will so that we can chose to love God or not. Not loving God is the same as sin. I don't understand why you don't think that is the choice we are given? In my reading, that's the whole point of our existence. To either love God or to sin. Either way, God is glorified because He loves us whether we love Him or not. If we love Him back, then love increases and this is good. If we sin, then God loves us anyway and His love makes this good too.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

94chem said:

---

Straight from the Bible is where I get it. When I read the Genesis story, the first question I ask is what it teaches us about God. This is how every verse of the Bible should be read. We see that he is perfect and holy. He creates with his will, and for his pleasure. When God is the central focus, the question of the Fall - whether it be angels or men - is not about HOW, but rather WHY. Because: God's will is the only perfect (free) will in the universe. To suggest otherwise is never even contemplated in scripture.

Now, if you want to say that angels are already in the eternal state, and therefore incapable of sin, go ahead. But no being capable of sin can remain sinless.

Whether Jesus was capable of sin is another issue, I suppose. I do not believe he was, because God's will cannot be in conflict with itself. Rather, he got to experience what this world does to people who obey God perfectly.

---

So in other words, that's your subjective opinion based on how you personally interpret and understand the scriptures that were canonized by the church Christ established? Angelology of the church of 94chem.

That's fine you do you.

---

You may be glib, but you have to know, that at the most basic level, I will never be able to agree with you that Mary was sinless. There are phenomenal Roman Catholic theologians, such as Aquinas, Luther, and Ben Meyer. But they, like myself or anyone else, got stuff wrong. The Reformation is just some well-needed change clothed in catastrophic heresy to you, I reckon. But to me, it's the freedom not only to err, but to also fix errors. The true Christ is present in both traditions.

The Banned said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

94chem said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

They may have limited knowledge, however, what they know, they know perfectly.

---

Which is also why there is no possibility of redemption for those who said "non servium" to God and why the other angels were immediately confirmed in grace and welcomed into the beatific vision.

---

I don't understand all of those words you just used, but the reason all of the angels aren't fallen is because they no longer have a will. There's only one perfect will. Every other will is in rebellion.

---

The angels still possess free will, just as they did at the moment of their creation. However, it is essential to understand the nature of their will. At their creation, angels were endowed with free will and faced a fundamental choice to either serve God or reject Him. This choice was definitive and irrevocable. Those who chose to serve God became the heavenly angels, while those who rejected Him became the fallen angels, led by Satan.

After this initial choice, the will of each angel became fixed. Heavenly angels are confirmed in grace and continually choose to serve and worship God. Their wills are aligned perfectly with God's will, and they do not sin. Angels' choices are always in harmony with God's plan for creation.

So the angels (as opposed to the fallen angels) have free will and NEVER rebelled against God. They are confirmed in grace such that they always do God's will and that makes them perfectly free because true freedom is not merely the ability to choose whatever one desires without constraint, but rather the capacity to choose the good, to act in accordance with God's will, and to align oneself with the truth of one's nature as created by God. In that sense angels are perfectly free creatures.

---

The only way I buy this is if all angles are human. After all, an angel is just a messenger from God. It would not be wrong to call all of the prophets angels, as their entire job was delivering messages from God. Could God use supernatural entities as messengers? Sure he could. IIRC though, every instance of an angel seen in the Bible outside of a vision appeared as human. So I guess in that case angels would have free will as long as they are human.

I don't buy that supernatural entities have free will. Man was made in God's image, and God's existence is defined more than anything by His irresistible Will. Therefore, man being the image of God means that man has limited will. It's not like we're patterned after his physical form as God the Father doesn't have one. Nowhere do we see supernatural entities incontrovertibly sinning against God, which is what would prove they had free will

---

So are you and 94chem saying that God made Satan because he wanted sin and evil to enter into the world? Satan rebelled and instigated the fall of mankind. If God made him with no will, it means he was created with this express purpose in mind. This is a step even Calvin would not take, even if his view of monergistic salvation required it.

---

Are you saying that Satan is THE cause of sin in the world? Not sure St. James would agree with that. Or M. Night Shyamalan.

I do find it odd that those who outright object to the allegorical possibility of the Genesis story don't typically address the topic of what this abject evil demon is doing in the middle of a perfect garden. But I digress...

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

The Banned said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

94chem said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

They may have limited knowledge, however, what they know, they know perfectly.

---

Which is also why there is no possibility of redemption for those who said "non servium" to God and why the other angels were immediately confirmed in grace and welcomed into the beatific vision.

---

I don't understand all of those words you just used, but the reason all of the angels aren't fallen is because they no longer have a will. There's only one perfect will. Every other will is in rebellion.

---

The angels still possess free will, just as they did at the moment of their creation. However, it is essential to understand the nature of their will. At their creation, angels were endowed with free will and faced a fundamental choice to either serve God or reject Him. This choice was definitive and irrevocable. Those who chose to serve God became the heavenly angels, while those who rejected Him became the fallen angels, led by Satan.

After this initial choice, the will of each angel became fixed. Heavenly angels are confirmed in grace and continually choose to serve and worship God. Their wills are aligned perfectly with God's will, and they do not sin. Angels' choices are always in harmony with God's plan for creation.

So the angels (as opposed to the fallen angels) have free will and NEVER rebelled against God. They are confirmed in grace such that they always do God's will and that makes them perfectly free because true freedom is not merely the ability to choose whatever one desires without constraint, but rather the capacity to choose the good, to act in accordance with God's will, and to align oneself with the truth of one's nature as created by God. In that sense angels are perfectly free creatures.

---

The only way I buy this is if all angles are human. After all, an angel is just a messenger from God. It would not be wrong to call all of the prophets angels, as their entire job was delivering messages from God. Could God use supernatural entities as messengers? Sure he could. IIRC though, every instance of an angel seen in the Bible outside of a vision appeared as human. So I guess in that case angels would have free will as long as they are human.

I don't buy that supernatural entities have free will. Man was made in God's image, and God's existence is defined more than anything by His irresistible Will. Therefore, man being the image of God means that man has limited will. It's not like we're patterned after his physical form as God the Father doesn't have one. Nowhere do we see supernatural entities incontrovertibly sinning against God, which is what would prove they had free will

---

So are you and 94chem saying that God made Satan because he wanted sin and evil to enter into the world? Satan rebelled and instigated the fall of mankind. If God made him with no will, it means he was created with this express purpose in mind. This is a step even Calvin would not take, even if his view of monergistic salvation required it.

---

In short, yes. Free will requires an alternative, and that alternative is sin. It does nothing to give men will but not give them the opportunity or motivation to choose any differently than God's Will. It's the same reason that God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden in the first place. If God never wanted sin to be possible, it would have been easy to just not put the Tree there

---

The Christian understanding of evil is much like the way blindness does not add something to the eye but deprives it of a good, so it is with evil generally. This view was utterly contrary to pagan theories, which presumed either two principles spirit is good while matter is evil or two deities a god of good and a god of evil at constant war. The Christian view, by contrast, maintains that all God has made is originally good, and evil is a shadow phenomenon, arising as a privation or corruption or twisting of this original goodness.

The reason God gave us free will is so that we could freely choose to love him. Authentic love must be freely expressed.

But I don't know how this is relevant to what happened with the angels. They are spirit beings, created by God and given sufficient knowledge to make a fully informed, singular choice to either love God or not love God. Humans were/are given a different choice.

---

I agree with all but the last paragraph. We have free will so that we can chose to love God or not. Not loving God is the same as sin. I don't understand why you don't think that is the choice we are given? In my reading, that's the whole point of our existence. To either love God or to sin. Either way, God is glorified because He loves us whether we love Him or not. If we love Him back, then love increases and this is good. If we sin, then God loves us anyway and His love makes this good too.

---

I think we might be talking past each other. I think what you are saying is right as far as it goes.

94chem said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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94chem said:

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Straight from the Bible is where I get it. When I read the Genesis story, the first question I ask is what it teaches us about God. This is how every verse of the Bible should be read. We see that he is perfect and holy. He creates with his will, and for his pleasure. When God is the central focus, the question of the Fall - whether it be angels or men - is not about HOW, but rather WHY. Because: God's will is the only perfect (free) will in the universe. To suggest otherwise is never even contemplated in scripture.

Now, if you want to say that angels are already in the eternal state, and therefore incapable of sin, go ahead. But no being capable of sin can remain sinless.

Whether Jesus was capable of sin is another issue, I suppose. I do not believe he was, because God's will cannot be in conflict with itself. Rather, he got to experience what this world does to people who obey God perfectly.

---

So in other words, that's your subjective opinion based on how you personally interpret and understand the scriptures that were canonized by the church Christ established? Angelology of the church of 94chem.

That's fine you do you.

---

You may be glib, but you have to know, that at the most basic level, I will never be able to agree with you that Mary was sinless. There are phenomenal Roman Catholic theologians, such as Aquinas, Luther, and Ben Meyer. But they, like myself or anyone else, got stuff wrong. The Reformation is just some well-needed change clothed in catastrophic heresy to you, I reckon. But to me, it's the freedom not only to err, but to also fix errors. The true Christ is present in both traditions.

---

I'm not trying to be glib. I apologize for that. I'm only saying "that's just like your opinion man." (Ref Big Lebowski). My position is that the true Christ is present in his church, which is his mystical body and the pillar/bulwark and foundation of the truth.

Further to that point, I don't think the Church has ever formally taught or established a doctrine on angelology, although I might be mistaken and am happy to be corrected. I think most of what the Church says about angels is what it took from Aquinas.

Well he is the Angelic Doctor.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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The Banned said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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94chem said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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PabloSerna said:

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They may have limited knowledge, however, what they know, they know perfectly.

---

Which is also why there is no possibility of redemption for those who said "non servium" to God and why the other angels were immediately confirmed in grace and welcomed into the beatific vision.

---

I don't understand all of those words you just used, but the reason all of the angels aren't fallen is because they no longer have a will. There's only one perfect will. Every other will is in rebellion.

---

The angels still possess free will, just as they did at the moment of their creation. However, it is essential to understand the nature of their will. At their creation, angels were endowed with free will and faced a fundamental choice to either serve God or reject Him. This choice was definitive and irrevocable. Those who chose to serve God became the heavenly angels, while those who rejected Him became the fallen angels, led by Satan.

After this initial choice, the will of each angel became fixed. Heavenly angels are confirmed in grace and continually choose to serve and worship God. Their wills are aligned perfectly with God's will, and they do not sin. Angels' choices are always in harmony with God's plan for creation.

So the angels (as opposed to the fallen angels) have free will and NEVER rebelled against God. They are confirmed in grace such that they always do God's will and that makes them perfectly free because true freedom is not merely the ability to choose whatever one desires without constraint, but rather the capacity to choose the good, to act in accordance with God's will, and to align oneself with the truth of one's nature as created by God. In that sense angels are perfectly free creatures.

---

The only way I buy this is if all angles are human. After all, an angel is just a messenger from God. It would not be wrong to call all of the prophets angels, as their entire job was delivering messages from God. Could God use supernatural entities as messengers? Sure he could. IIRC though, every instance of an angel seen in the Bible outside of a vision appeared as human. So I guess in that case angels would have free will as long as they are human.

I don't buy that supernatural entities have free will. Man was made in God's image, and God's existence is defined more than anything by His irresistible Will. Therefore, man being the image of God means that man has limited will. It's not like we're patterned after his physical form as God the Father doesn't have one. Nowhere do we see supernatural entities incontrovertibly sinning against God, which is what would prove they had free will

---

So are you and 94chem saying that God made Satan because he wanted sin and evil to enter into the world? Satan rebelled and instigated the fall of mankind. If God made him with no will, it means he was created with this express purpose in mind. This is a step even Calvin would not take, even if his view of monergistic salvation required it.

---

In short, yes. Free will requires an alternative, and that alternative is sin. It does nothing to give men will but not give them the opportunity or motivation to choose any differently than God's Will. It's the same reason that God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden in the first place. If God never wanted sin to be possible, it would have been easy to just not put the Tree there

---

God creating Satan as an agent of sin in order to introduce sin makes God the creator of sin. God literally causes the sin to happen. And all things God creates is "good", so now sin is "good". I don't know a single reformer who was willing to go this far, but I will applaud you for getting to the logical conclusion that even Calvin was uncomfortable accepting. You're really, REALLY far afield of traditional Christian teaching.

ETA: there is a world of difference between God allowing for sin to be chosen, and God making an inherently sinful creature to lure others into sin.

94chem said:

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The Banned said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

94chem said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

They may have limited knowledge, however, what they know, they know perfectly.

---

Which is also why there is no possibility of redemption for those who said "non servium" to God and why the other angels were immediately confirmed in grace and welcomed into the beatific vision.

---

I don't understand all of those words you just used, but the reason all of the angels aren't fallen is because they no longer have a will. There's only one perfect will. Every other will is in rebellion.

---

The angels still possess free will, just as they did at the moment of their creation. However, it is essential to understand the nature of their will. At their creation, angels were endowed with free will and faced a fundamental choice to either serve God or reject Him. This choice was definitive and irrevocable. Those who chose to serve God became the heavenly angels, while those who rejected Him became the fallen angels, led by Satan.

After this initial choice, the will of each angel became fixed. Heavenly angels are confirmed in grace and continually choose to serve and worship God. Their wills are aligned perfectly with God's will, and they do not sin. Angels' choices are always in harmony with God's plan for creation.

So the angels (as opposed to the fallen angels) have free will and NEVER rebelled against God. They are confirmed in grace such that they always do God's will and that makes them perfectly free because true freedom is not merely the ability to choose whatever one desires without constraint, but rather the capacity to choose the good, to act in accordance with God's will, and to align oneself with the truth of one's nature as created by God. In that sense angels are perfectly free creatures.

---

The only way I buy this is if all angles are human. After all, an angel is just a messenger from God. It would not be wrong to call all of the prophets angels, as their entire job was delivering messages from God. Could God use supernatural entities as messengers? Sure he could. IIRC though, every instance of an angel seen in the Bible outside of a vision appeared as human. So I guess in that case angels would have free will as long as they are human.

I don't buy that supernatural entities have free will. Man was made in God's image, and God's existence is defined more than anything by His irresistible Will. Therefore, man being the image of God means that man has limited will. It's not like we're patterned after his physical form as God the Father doesn't have one. Nowhere do we see supernatural entities incontrovertibly sinning against God, which is what would prove they had free will

---

So are you and 94chem saying that God made Satan because he wanted sin and evil to enter into the world? Satan rebelled and instigated the fall of mankind. If God made him with no will, it means he was created with this express purpose in mind. This is a step even Calvin would not take, even if his view of monergistic salvation required it.

---

Are you saying that Satan is THE cause of sin in the world? Not sure St. James would agree with that. Or M. Night Shyamalan.

I do find it odd that those who outright object to the allegorical possibility of the Genesis story don't typically address the topic of what this abject evil demon is doing in the middle of a perfect garden. But I digress...

---

Satan is evil. God created him that way. That means God created evil. Or do you not believe Satan is evil?

I guess we could say God didn't technically create sin in this situation if Adam and Eve were truly free to make a choice and the devil wasn't, but I don't see that as any better than God being the creator of evil.

The Banned said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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The Banned said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

94chem said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

They may have limited knowledge, however, what they know, they know perfectly.

---

Which is also why there is no possibility of redemption for those who said "non servium" to God and why the other angels were immediately confirmed in grace and welcomed into the beatific vision.

---

I don't understand all of those words you just used, but the reason all of the angels aren't fallen is because they no longer have a will. There's only one perfect will. Every other will is in rebellion.

---

The angels still possess free will, just as they did at the moment of their creation. However, it is essential to understand the nature of their will. At their creation, angels were endowed with free will and faced a fundamental choice to either serve God or reject Him. This choice was definitive and irrevocable. Those who chose to serve God became the heavenly angels, while those who rejected Him became the fallen angels, led by Satan.

After this initial choice, the will of each angel became fixed. Heavenly angels are confirmed in grace and continually choose to serve and worship God. Their wills are aligned perfectly with God's will, and they do not sin. Angels' choices are always in harmony with God's plan for creation.

So the angels (as opposed to the fallen angels) have free will and NEVER rebelled against God. They are confirmed in grace such that they always do God's will and that makes them perfectly free because true freedom is not merely the ability to choose whatever one desires without constraint, but rather the capacity to choose the good, to act in accordance with God's will, and to align oneself with the truth of one's nature as created by God. In that sense angels are perfectly free creatures.

---

The only way I buy this is if all angles are human. After all, an angel is just a messenger from God. It would not be wrong to call all of the prophets angels, as their entire job was delivering messages from God. Could God use supernatural entities as messengers? Sure he could. IIRC though, every instance of an angel seen in the Bible outside of a vision appeared as human. So I guess in that case angels would have free will as long as they are human.

I don't buy that supernatural entities have free will. Man was made in God's image, and God's existence is defined more than anything by His irresistible Will. Therefore, man being the image of God means that man has limited will. It's not like we're patterned after his physical form as God the Father doesn't have one. Nowhere do we see supernatural entities incontrovertibly sinning against God, which is what would prove they had free will

---

So are you and 94chem saying that God made Satan because he wanted sin and evil to enter into the world? Satan rebelled and instigated the fall of mankind. If God made him with no will, it means he was created with this express purpose in mind. This is a step even Calvin would not take, even if his view of monergistic salvation required it.

---

In short, yes. Free will requires an alternative, and that alternative is sin. It does nothing to give men will but not give them the opportunity or motivation to choose any differently than God's Will. It's the same reason that God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden in the first place. If God never wanted sin to be possible, it would have been easy to just not put the Tree there

---

God creating Satan as an agent of sin in order to introduce sin makes God the creator of sin. God literally causes the sin to happen. And all things God creates is "good", so now sin is "good". I don't know a single reformer who was willing to go this far, but I will applaud you for getting to the logical conclusion that even Calvin was uncomfortable accepting. You're really, REALLY far afield of traditional Christian teaching.

---

I'm not too worried about it. Nothing can happen without God's permission. If sin exists, then it is because God made an existence where sin is possible. But I'm not a Calvinist. I believe in free will, and sin is the other side of that coin. Only the existence of sin gives us the ability to have free will. Otherwise, we are just following God's Will like everything else in creation from atoms to asteroids to chimpazees. God giving us freedom creates the potential for sin. You can't have one without the other.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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The Banned said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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The Banned said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

94chem said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

They may have limited knowledge, however, what they know, they know perfectly.

---

Which is also why there is no possibility of redemption for those who said "non servium" to God and why the other angels were immediately confirmed in grace and welcomed into the beatific vision.

---

I don't understand all of those words you just used, but the reason all of the angels aren't fallen is because they no longer have a will. There's only one perfect will. Every other will is in rebellion.

---

The angels still possess free will, just as they did at the moment of their creation. However, it is essential to understand the nature of their will. At their creation, angels were endowed with free will and faced a fundamental choice to either serve God or reject Him. This choice was definitive and irrevocable. Those who chose to serve God became the heavenly angels, while those who rejected Him became the fallen angels, led by Satan.

After this initial choice, the will of each angel became fixed. Heavenly angels are confirmed in grace and continually choose to serve and worship God. Their wills are aligned perfectly with God's will, and they do not sin. Angels' choices are always in harmony with God's plan for creation.

So the angels (as opposed to the fallen angels) have free will and NEVER rebelled against God. They are confirmed in grace such that they always do God's will and that makes them perfectly free because true freedom is not merely the ability to choose whatever one desires without constraint, but rather the capacity to choose the good, to act in accordance with God's will, and to align oneself with the truth of one's nature as created by God. In that sense angels are perfectly free creatures.

---

The only way I buy this is if all angles are human. After all, an angel is just a messenger from God. It would not be wrong to call all of the prophets angels, as their entire job was delivering messages from God. Could God use supernatural entities as messengers? Sure he could. IIRC though, every instance of an angel seen in the Bible outside of a vision appeared as human. So I guess in that case angels would have free will as long as they are human.

I don't buy that supernatural entities have free will. Man was made in God's image, and God's existence is defined more than anything by His irresistible Will. Therefore, man being the image of God means that man has limited will. It's not like we're patterned after his physical form as God the Father doesn't have one. Nowhere do we see supernatural entities incontrovertibly sinning against God, which is what would prove they had free will

---

So are you and 94chem saying that God made Satan because he wanted sin and evil to enter into the world? Satan rebelled and instigated the fall of mankind. If God made him with no will, it means he was created with this express purpose in mind. This is a step even Calvin would not take, even if his view of monergistic salvation required it.

---

In short, yes. Free will requires an alternative, and that alternative is sin. It does nothing to give men will but not give them the opportunity or motivation to choose any differently than God's Will. It's the same reason that God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden in the first place. If God never wanted sin to be possible, it would have been easy to just not put the Tree there

---

God creating Satan as an agent of sin in order to introduce sin makes God the creator of sin. God literally causes the sin to happen. And all things God creates is "good", so now sin is "good". I don't know a single reformer who was willing to go this far, but I will applaud you for getting to the logical conclusion that even Calvin was uncomfortable accepting. You're really, REALLY far afield of traditional Christian teaching.

---

I'm not too worried about it. Nothing can happen without God's permission. If sin exists, then it is because God made an existence where sin is possible. But I'm not a Calvinist. I believe in free will, and sin is the other side of that coin. Only the existence of sin gives us the ability to have free will. Otherwise, we are just following God's Will like everything else in creation from atoms to asteroids to chimpazees. God giving us freedom creates the potential for sin. You can't have one without the other.

---

Understood. You said "only the existence of sin gives us free will." Is that actually what you're saying? If so, what happens in your opinion, if the angels didn't choose rebellion and then Adam and Eve didn't fall?

The Banned said:

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94chem said:

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The Banned said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

94chem said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

They may have limited knowledge, however, what they know, they know perfectly.

---

Which is also why there is no possibility of redemption for those who said "non servium" to God and why the other angels were immediately confirmed in grace and welcomed into the beatific vision.

---

I don't understand all of those words you just used, but the reason all of the angels aren't fallen is because they no longer have a will. There's only one perfect will. Every other will is in rebellion.

---

The angels still possess free will, just as they did at the moment of their creation. However, it is essential to understand the nature of their will. At their creation, angels were endowed with free will and faced a fundamental choice to either serve God or reject Him. This choice was definitive and irrevocable. Those who chose to serve God became the heavenly angels, while those who rejected Him became the fallen angels, led by Satan.

After this initial choice, the will of each angel became fixed. Heavenly angels are confirmed in grace and continually choose to serve and worship God. Their wills are aligned perfectly with God's will, and they do not sin. Angels' choices are always in harmony with God's plan for creation.

So the angels (as opposed to the fallen angels) have free will and NEVER rebelled against God. They are confirmed in grace such that they always do God's will and that makes them perfectly free because true freedom is not merely the ability to choose whatever one desires without constraint, but rather the capacity to choose the good, to act in accordance with God's will, and to align oneself with the truth of one's nature as created by God. In that sense angels are perfectly free creatures.

---

The only way I buy this is if all angles are human. After all, an angel is just a messenger from God. It would not be wrong to call all of the prophets angels, as their entire job was delivering messages from God. Could God use supernatural entities as messengers? Sure he could. IIRC though, every instance of an angel seen in the Bible outside of a vision appeared as human. So I guess in that case angels would have free will as long as they are human.

I don't buy that supernatural entities have free will. Man was made in God's image, and God's existence is defined more than anything by His irresistible Will. Therefore, man being the image of God means that man has limited will. It's not like we're patterned after his physical form as God the Father doesn't have one. Nowhere do we see supernatural entities incontrovertibly sinning against God, which is what would prove they had free will

---

So are you and 94chem saying that God made Satan because he wanted sin and evil to enter into the world? Satan rebelled and instigated the fall of mankind. If God made him with no will, it means he was created with this express purpose in mind. This is a step even Calvin would not take, even if his view of monergistic salvation required it.

---

Are you saying that Satan is THE cause of sin in the world? Not sure St. James would agree with that. Or M. Night Shyamalan.

I do find it odd that those who outright object to the allegorical possibility of the Genesis story don't typically address the topic of what this abject evil demon is doing in the middle of a perfect garden. But I digress...

---

Satan is evil. God created him that way. That means God created evil. Or do you not believe Satan is evil?

I guess we could say God didn't technically create sin in this situation if Adam and Eve were truly free to make a choice and the devil wasn't, but I don't see that as any better than God being the creator of evil.

---

I'm not saying he was created evil. I'm saying he was created with a will. Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 seem to address how he chose to use it.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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The Banned said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

The Banned said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

94chem said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

They may have limited knowledge, however, what they know, they know perfectly.

---

Which is also why there is no possibility of redemption for those who said "non servium" to God and why the other angels were immediately confirmed in grace and welcomed into the beatific vision.

---

I don't understand all of those words you just used, but the reason all of the angels aren't fallen is because they no longer have a will. There's only one perfect will. Every other will is in rebellion.

---

The angels still possess free will, just as they did at the moment of their creation. However, it is essential to understand the nature of their will. At their creation, angels were endowed with free will and faced a fundamental choice to either serve God or reject Him. This choice was definitive and irrevocable. Those who chose to serve God became the heavenly angels, while those who rejected Him became the fallen angels, led by Satan.

After this initial choice, the will of each angel became fixed. Heavenly angels are confirmed in grace and continually choose to serve and worship God. Their wills are aligned perfectly with God's will, and they do not sin. Angels' choices are always in harmony with God's plan for creation.

So the angels (as opposed to the fallen angels) have free will and NEVER rebelled against God. They are confirmed in grace such that they always do God's will and that makes them perfectly free because true freedom is not merely the ability to choose whatever one desires without constraint, but rather the capacity to choose the good, to act in accordance with God's will, and to align oneself with the truth of one's nature as created by God. In that sense angels are perfectly free creatures.

---

The only way I buy this is if all angles are human. After all, an angel is just a messenger from God. It would not be wrong to call all of the prophets angels, as their entire job was delivering messages from God. Could God use supernatural entities as messengers? Sure he could. IIRC though, every instance of an angel seen in the Bible outside of a vision appeared as human. So I guess in that case angels would have free will as long as they are human.

I don't buy that supernatural entities have free will. Man was made in God's image, and God's existence is defined more than anything by His irresistible Will. Therefore, man being the image of God means that man has limited will. It's not like we're patterned after his physical form as God the Father doesn't have one. Nowhere do we see supernatural entities incontrovertibly sinning against God, which is what would prove they had free will

---

So are you and 94chem saying that God made Satan because he wanted sin and evil to enter into the world? Satan rebelled and instigated the fall of mankind. If God made him with no will, it means he was created with this express purpose in mind. This is a step even Calvin would not take, even if his view of monergistic salvation required it.

---

In short, yes. Free will requires an alternative, and that alternative is sin. It does nothing to give men will but not give them the opportunity or motivation to choose any differently than God's Will. It's the same reason that God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden in the first place. If God never wanted sin to be possible, it would have been easy to just not put the Tree there

---

God creating Satan as an agent of sin in order to introduce sin makes God the creator of sin. God literally causes the sin to happen. And all things God creates is "good", so now sin is "good". I don't know a single reformer who was willing to go this far, but I will applaud you for getting to the logical conclusion that even Calvin was uncomfortable accepting. You're really, REALLY far afield of traditional Christian teaching.

---

I'm not too worried about it. Nothing can happen without God's permission. If sin exists, then it is because God made an existence where sin is possible. But I'm not a Calvinist. I believe in free will, and sin is the other side of that coin. Only the existence of sin gives us the ability to have free will. Otherwise, we are just following God's Will like everything else in creation from atoms to asteroids to chimpazees. God giving us freedom creates the potential for sin. You can't have one without the other.

---

Understood. You said "only the existence of sin gives us free will." Is that actually what you're saying? If so, what happens in your opinion, if the angels didn't choose rebellion and then Adam and Eve didn't fall?

---

I think I mispoke. I'd saw the potential of sin allows for free will. As stated above, I don't think spiritual, supernatural angels have free will so I can't comment on their rebellion or lack thereof. As far as speculation about Adam and Eve, that breaks my head to think about.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

The Banned said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

The Banned said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

94chem said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

They may have limited knowledge, however, what they know, they know perfectly.

---

Which is also why there is no possibility of redemption for those who said "non servium" to God and why the other angels were immediately confirmed in grace and welcomed into the beatific vision.

---

I don't understand all of those words you just used, but the reason all of the angels aren't fallen is because they no longer have a will. There's only one perfect will. Every other will is in rebellion.

---

The angels still possess free will, just as they did at the moment of their creation. However, it is essential to understand the nature of their will. At their creation, angels were endowed with free will and faced a fundamental choice to either serve God or reject Him. This choice was definitive and irrevocable. Those who chose to serve God became the heavenly angels, while those who rejected Him became the fallen angels, led by Satan.

After this initial choice, the will of each angel became fixed. Heavenly angels are confirmed in grace and continually choose to serve and worship God. Their wills are aligned perfectly with God's will, and they do not sin. Angels' choices are always in harmony with God's plan for creation.

So the angels (as opposed to the fallen angels) have free will and NEVER rebelled against God. They are confirmed in grace such that they always do God's will and that makes them perfectly free because true freedom is not merely the ability to choose whatever one desires without constraint, but rather the capacity to choose the good, to act in accordance with God's will, and to align oneself with the truth of one's nature as created by God. In that sense angels are perfectly free creatures.

---

The only way I buy this is if all angles are human. After all, an angel is just a messenger from God. It would not be wrong to call all of the prophets angels, as their entire job was delivering messages from God. Could God use supernatural entities as messengers? Sure he could. IIRC though, every instance of an angel seen in the Bible outside of a vision appeared as human. So I guess in that case angels would have free will as long as they are human.

I don't buy that supernatural entities have free will. Man was made in God's image, and God's existence is defined more than anything by His irresistible Will. Therefore, man being the image of God means that man has limited will. It's not like we're patterned after his physical form as God the Father doesn't have one. Nowhere do we see supernatural entities incontrovertibly sinning against God, which is what would prove they had free will

---

So are you and 94chem saying that God made Satan because he wanted sin and evil to enter into the world? Satan rebelled and instigated the fall of mankind. If God made him with no will, it means he was created with this express purpose in mind. This is a step even Calvin would not take, even if his view of monergistic salvation required it.

---

In short, yes. Free will requires an alternative, and that alternative is sin. It does nothing to give men will but not give them the opportunity or motivation to choose any differently than God's Will. It's the same reason that God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden in the first place. If God never wanted sin to be possible, it would have been easy to just not put the Tree there

---

God creating Satan as an agent of sin in order to introduce sin makes God the creator of sin. God literally causes the sin to happen. And all things God creates is "good", so now sin is "good". I don't know a single reformer who was willing to go this far, but I will applaud you for getting to the logical conclusion that even Calvin was uncomfortable accepting. You're really, REALLY far afield of traditional Christian teaching.

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I'm not too worried about it. Nothing can happen without God's permission. If sin exists, then it is because God made an existence where sin is possible. But I'm not a Calvinist. I believe in free will, and sin is the other side of that coin. Only the existence of sin gives us the ability to have free will. Otherwise, we are just following God's Will like everything else in creation from atoms to asteroids to chimpazees. God giving us freedom creates the potential for sin. You can't have one without the other.

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Understood. You said "only the existence of sin gives us free will." Is that actually what you're saying? If so, what happens in your opinion, if the angels didn't choose rebellion and then Adam and Eve didn't fall?

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I think I mispoke. I'd saw the potential of sin allows for free will. As stated above, I don't think spiritual, supernatural angels have free will so I can't comment on their rebellion or lack thereof. As far as speculation about Adam and Eve, that breaks my head to think about.

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That's what I thought you probably meant. Thanks for clarifying. I agree. It's really about the ability to choose to love or not love. Authentic love must be freely given and received. God is love and he created us for relationship with him, who is love. We have to be able to freely reject him if we are to freely love him.

Following up on my post above as to whether the Church has a doctrine of angels, I was mistaken (not unusual).

From Truthly (Catholic AI app):

The Catholic Church has doctrinal teachings on angels, which are affirmed in Scripture and Tradition. These teachings provide insight into the nature and role of angels within the divine plan:

1. **Creation and Nature**: The Church teaches that angels are purely spiritual beings created by God. As creatures of pure spirit, they are immortal, have intellect and will, and surpass human knowledge and power, yet they remain creatures of God (Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC], 330).

2. **Role and Mission**: Angels serve as messengers and servants of God, carrying out His will and assisting in the governance of creation. Scripture recounts numerous instances where angels deliver messages, offer protection, and execute divine judgments (e.g., Genesis 19, Luke 1:26-38, Matthew 1:20).

3. **Hierarchy and Choirs**: Tradition holds that there is a hierarchy among angels, often depicted as nine choirs or orders, including seraphim, cherubim, thrones, dominions, virtues, powers, principalities, archangels, and angels. Each choir serves specific roles within God's providence.

4. **Guardian Angels**: The Church teaches the existence of guardian angels, assigned to individuals for their protection and guidance. As mentioned in Matthew 18:10, they constantly behold the face of God, interceding on our behalf.

5. **Fallen Angels**: The Church acknowledges the existence of fallen angels, led by Satan, who rebelled against God and were cast out of heaven. These angels work against God's plans, but their power is limited and ultimately subject to God's authority (CCC 391-395).

6. **Angelic Revelation**: Angels participate in the unfolding of salvation history, as seen in significant events like the Annunciation and the Resurrection. Their presence underscores God's continued interaction with the world.

The Church's teachings on angels invite us to recognize and appreciate their role in God's plan, encouraging us to seek their intercession and protection in our spiritual journey.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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The Banned said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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The Banned said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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94chem said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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PabloSerna said:

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They may have limited knowledge, however, what they know, they know perfectly.

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Which is also why there is no possibility of redemption for those who said "non servium" to God and why the other angels were immediately confirmed in grace and welcomed into the beatific vision.

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I don't understand all of those words you just used, but the reason all of the angels aren't fallen is because they no longer have a will. There's only one perfect will. Every other will is in rebellion.

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The angels still possess free will, just as they did at the moment of their creation. However, it is essential to understand the nature of their will. At their creation, angels were endowed with free will and faced a fundamental choice to either serve God or reject Him. This choice was definitive and irrevocable. Those who chose to serve God became the heavenly angels, while those who rejected Him became the fallen angels, led by Satan.

After this initial choice, the will of each angel became fixed. Heavenly angels are confirmed in grace and continually choose to serve and worship God. Their wills are aligned perfectly with God's will, and they do not sin. Angels' choices are always in harmony with God's plan for creation.

So the angels (as opposed to the fallen angels) have free will and NEVER rebelled against God. They are confirmed in grace such that they always do God's will and that makes them perfectly free because true freedom is not merely the ability to choose whatever one desires without constraint, but rather the capacity to choose the good, to act in accordance with God's will, and to align oneself with the truth of one's nature as created by God. In that sense angels are perfectly free creatures.

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The only way I buy this is if all angles are human. After all, an angel is just a messenger from God. It would not be wrong to call all of the prophets angels, as their entire job was delivering messages from God. Could God use supernatural entities as messengers? Sure he could. IIRC though, every instance of an angel seen in the Bible outside of a vision appeared as human. So I guess in that case angels would have free will as long as they are human.

I don't buy that supernatural entities have free will. Man was made in God's image, and God's existence is defined more than anything by His irresistible Will. Therefore, man being the image of God means that man has limited will. It's not like we're patterned after his physical form as God the Father doesn't have one. Nowhere do we see supernatural entities incontrovertibly sinning against God, which is what would prove they had free will

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So are you and 94chem saying that God made Satan because he wanted sin and evil to enter into the world? Satan rebelled and instigated the fall of mankind. If God made him with no will, it means he was created with this express purpose in mind. This is a step even Calvin would not take, even if his view of monergistic salvation required it.

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In short, yes. Free will requires an alternative, and that alternative is sin. It does nothing to give men will but not give them the opportunity or motivation to choose any differently than God's Will. It's the same reason that God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden in the first place. If God never wanted sin to be possible, it would have been easy to just not put the Tree there

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God creating Satan as an agent of sin in order to introduce sin makes God the creator of sin. God literally causes the sin to happen. And all things God creates is "good", so now sin is "good". I don't know a single reformer who was willing to go this far, but I will applaud you for getting to the logical conclusion that even Calvin was uncomfortable accepting. You're really, REALLY far afield of traditional Christian teaching.

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I'm not too worried about it. Nothing can happen without God's permission. If sin exists, then it is because God made an existence where sin is possible. But I'm not a Calvinist. I believe in free will, and sin is the other side of that coin. Only the existence of sin gives us the ability to have free will. Otherwise, we are just following God's Will like everything else in creation from atoms to asteroids to chimpazees. God giving us freedom creates the potential for sin. You can't have one without the other.

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BUt you said the angels didn't have a free will, which means Satan is only doing what he was created to do, which was to inroduce sin in to the world... Or do you believe angels do have free will?