dermdoc said:
Is the suspicion that God is not good"
Oswald Chambers
Our pastor talked about that quote this past Sunday and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
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All men seek happiness. This is without exception. Whatever different means they employ, they all tend to this end. The cause of some going to war, and of others avoiding it, is the same desire in both, attended with different views. The will never takes the least step but to this object. This is the motive of every action of every man, even of those who hang themselves. Blaise Pascal
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So yes, all sin, starting with the original sin, starts from a place of not trusting God, which I think is synonymous with being suspicious of God's goodness.
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we have been trying to rebuild and reconstruct and reconcile that relationship ever since
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he immediately began his plan of salvation to bring us back into communion with him
10andBOUNCE said:
Appreciate your thoughts on this.Quote:
we have been trying to rebuild and reconstruct and reconcile that relationship ever since
I'd interject that it is God who first pursued (and always first pursues)...Adam and Eve hid in the garden and God called out seeking. In his mercy, it was God who clothed them in their shame (Gen 3:21).
>Definitely. I would never suggest otherwise, just as it is God's 100% unmerited gift of grace that initially saves us and brings us back into that communal relationship with the Trinity.Quote:
he immediately began his plan of salvation to bring us back into communion with him
God's redemptive plan has always been; God didn't have to pivot once Adam screwed up. It was an eternal, intra-trinitarian agreement (covenant), made by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit before time began.
> I think that is right. I was referring to the "Protoevangelium" in Genesis 3:15, which can also be thought of as the "first gospel" or "first good news." In this passage, God speaks to the serpent after the fall of Adam and Eve, saying:
"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; they will strike at your head, while you strike at their heel."
I understand this verse as the first hint of the Gospel message and the promise of salvation.
I would add that your point seems to also be a good entrance into the discussion about how salvation is not only being saved from the consequences of sin but saved FOR a relationship with the Trinity. This is the precipice of an old debate in the Catholic world about the counter-factual situation of whether the Incarnation would still have occurred if sin had never entered the world. It's neither here nor there, but my personal belief is aligned with Scotus and the Franciscans that it would have but that's a bigger discussion for a different time. I think the Incarnation would still have been necessary to bring us into the fullness of the community God intended for us from the beginning even if sin never enters the world. The Incarnation is required to marry divinity and humanity such that God's love can be shared with us as was intended from the beginning. That is something that is necessary regardless of sin. When sin enters, the Incarnation serves to not only allow for the fulfillment of God's plan for communion with us but it also takes on the additional purpose of being able to atone for sin and heal the rupture of the relationship between creation and the Trinity. Where sin abounds grace abounds even more.
So all that to say yes. I agree with you.
Luke 22: 29-30
and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
2 Timothy 1:8-10
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel
Ephesians 1:4-10
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth in him.
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"And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."
Ever seen marble turned into a net? 🤯Francesco Queirolo spent 7 years (1754) carving Il Disinganno-an angel freeing a man from sin’s web. All one block of marble, no tricks. Still on display in Naples’ Cappella Sansevero. pic.twitter.com/6EfgkI9ftG
— LeoDaVinciWave (@LeoDaVinciWave) September 2, 2025
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BIBLICAL MEANING
According to the Museo Capella Sansevero ("Sansevero Chapel Museum") the net symbolizes sin. As the angel sets the man free, he rids him of his wrongdoings and introduces him to the Bible, which rests at his feet. In order to emphasize the idea of liberation, Queirolo adorned the open pages of the book with a Latin passage that reads: "I will break thy chain, the chain of the darkness and long night of which thou art a slave so that thou might not be condemned with this world."
SECULAR SYMBOLISM
In addition to religious undertones, the sculpture incorporates secular symbols. For example, the flame on the angel's head represents human intellect, while the globe signifies worldly passions. These elements coincide with Raimondo's dedication to his father, which explores the idea of "human fragility, which cannot know great virtues without vice."
According to the museum, the sculpture also appears to denote aspects of freemasonry, a fraternal organization. The Bible, for example, serves a dual purpose, as an open book is one of the three "great lights" of Masonry. Similarly, the concept of light and darkexplored by the aforementioned biblical passage"appears to be a clear reference to Masonic initiation, where those being initiated would enter wearing a ritual blindfold to open their eyes to the new light of the Truth."
10andBOUNCE said:
Trying to think through this quote; though I suppose I ought not to overthink it.
Trying to weave in the idea of pride since Scripture alludes to it being the root of evil. I suppose the very "suspicion" of God not being good in every area of our lives would give us reason to either believe, think, or act like we know better.
dermdoc said:10andBOUNCE said:
Trying to think through this quote; though I suppose I ought not to overthink it.
Trying to weave in the idea of pride since Scripture alludes to it being the root of evil. I suppose the very "suspicion" of God not being good in every area of our lives would give us reason to either believe, think, or act like we know better.
I agree.
dermdoc said:
This fits in with one of my favorite Scriptures
Habakkuk 3 17-19
Though the fig tree does not bud
And there are no grapes on the vine
Though the olive crop fails
And the fields produce no food
Though there are no sheep in the pen
And no cattle in the stalls
Yet I will rejoice in the Lord
I will be joyful in God my Savior.