CrackerJackAg said:

---

Bart,

Yeah…. American Evangelical Protestantism has never healed anyone. I know some people are hardwired to their beliefs, but geez….

1. The Investigation of American Evangelicals
When major American faith healers have been subjected to scientific scrutiny, the "verifiable" evidence always vanishes.

Kathryn Kuhlman:

As noted previously, physician William Nolen tracked 23 specific cases of "miraculous healing" from her services. He found zero evidence of organic cure; some patients with spinal cancer had temporarily felt better due to the massive adrenaline and endorphin rush of the stage, only to suffer spinal collapses later when they stopped using their braces.

Peter Popoff & Benny Hinn:
Investigative teams and medical professionals have repeatedly challenged modern televangelists to provide medical records for their stage miracles. When investigators have followed up on individuals "healed" of cancer or blindness at these crusades, they invariably found that the individuals either still had the disease, had been misdiagnosed initially, or died shortly thereafter from abandoning their treatments.

The American Cancer Society explicitly states that available scientific evidence does not support claims that faith healing can cure physical ailments.

2. What Is Verifiable?
(The Placebo and Functional Effect)
While faith healers do not regrow limbs or reverse advanced structural tissue damage, they do achieve verifiable changes in how a patient feels. Science explains these verified shifts through specific mechanisms:
Functional vs. Organic Illness: Medical science draws a sharp line between organic diseases (like a destroyed optic nerve or a tumor) and functional symptoms (such as psychogenic blindness, hysterical paralysis, or chronic pain caused by muscle tension). Intense emotional atmospheres, religious fervor, and acute psychological suggestion can instantly alleviate functional, stress-induced symptoms.
The Neurochemical Rush: Standing on a stage in front of thousands of singing people triggers a massive surge of adrenaline, cortisol, and endorphins. This neurochemical cocktail acts as a powerful temporary painkiller, allowing a person with severe arthritis to briefly run across a stageeven though their joints remain fundamentally damaged.

3. The Contrast: Roman Catholic "Miracles"

If you are looking for religious healings that have actually passed strict medical screening, you have to look outside American Evangelicalism to the Roman Catholic Church.
Unlike evangelical crusadeswhich rely on immediate, high-emotion stage proclamationsthe Catholic Church utilizes a highly rigid, years-long bureaucratic process to vet miracles for the canonization of saints.

The Lourdes Medical Bureau: In Lourdes, France, a permanent medical bureau composed of dozens of secular doctors, professors, and specialists examines claims of miraculous healings.

Strict Criteria: To be certified as "medically unexplained," a cure must be:

1 Instantaneous.

2 Complete and permanent.

3 Formally diagnosed prior to the healing using objective metrics (X-rays, biopsies, blood panels).

4 Incapable of being explained by any known medical treatment the patient received.

Out of over 7,000 healing claims submitted at Lourdes since 1858, the medical bureau has rejected the vast majority, certifying only 70 cases as truly "medically inexplicable" (such as the sudden, structural regeneration of a shattered pelvic bone or the immediate clearing of advanced tuberculosis).

Even then, the scientific community labels these rare events as "spontaneous remissions"extraordinary anomalies that happen at a baseline statistical rate globally, regardless of religionrather than definitive proof of the supernatural.

Summary

If an American televangelist claims a miracle, your skepticism is 100% correct. They have never successfully documented a single structural cure under rigorous scientific observation. When "healing" happens in these settings, it is a verified triumph of psychology and human neurochemistry over the body's perception of pain, not a biological rewriting of disease.

---

dermdoc said:

---

CrackerJackAg said:

---

Bart,

Yeah…. American Evangelical Protestantism has never healed anyone. I know some people are hardwired to their beliefs, but geez….

1. The Investigation of American Evangelicals
When major American faith healers have been subjected to scientific scrutiny, the "verifiable" evidence always vanishes.

Kathryn Kuhlman:

As noted previously, physician William Nolen tracked 23 specific cases of "miraculous healing" from her services. He found zero evidence of organic cure; some patients with spinal cancer had temporarily felt better due to the massive adrenaline and endorphin rush of the stage, only to suffer spinal collapses later when they stopped using their braces.

Peter Popoff & Benny Hinn:
Investigative teams and medical professionals have repeatedly challenged modern televangelists to provide medical records for their stage miracles. When investigators have followed up on individuals "healed" of cancer or blindness at these crusades, they invariably found that the individuals either still had the disease, had been misdiagnosed initially, or died shortly thereafter from abandoning their treatments.

The American Cancer Society explicitly states that available scientific evidence does not support claims that faith healing can cure physical ailments.

2. What Is Verifiable?
(The Placebo and Functional Effect)
While faith healers do not regrow limbs or reverse advanced structural tissue damage, they do achieve verifiable changes in how a patient feels. Science explains these verified shifts through specific mechanisms:
Functional vs. Organic Illness: Medical science draws a sharp line between organic diseases (like a destroyed optic nerve or a tumor) and functional symptoms (such as psychogenic blindness, hysterical paralysis, or chronic pain caused by muscle tension). Intense emotional atmospheres, religious fervor, and acute psychological suggestion can instantly alleviate functional, stress-induced symptoms.
The Neurochemical Rush: Standing on a stage in front of thousands of singing people triggers a massive surge of adrenaline, cortisol, and endorphins. This neurochemical cocktail acts as a powerful temporary painkiller, allowing a person with severe arthritis to briefly run across a stageeven though their joints remain fundamentally damaged.

3. The Contrast: Roman Catholic "Miracles"

If you are looking for religious healings that have actually passed strict medical screening, you have to look outside American Evangelicalism to the Roman Catholic Church.
Unlike evangelical crusadeswhich rely on immediate, high-emotion stage proclamationsthe Catholic Church utilizes a highly rigid, years-long bureaucratic process to vet miracles for the canonization of saints.

The Lourdes Medical Bureau: In Lourdes, France, a permanent medical bureau composed of dozens of secular doctors, professors, and specialists examines claims of miraculous healings.

Strict Criteria: To be certified as "medically unexplained," a cure must be:

1 Instantaneous.

2 Complete and permanent.

3 Formally diagnosed prior to the healing using objective metrics (X-rays, biopsies, blood panels).

4 Incapable of being explained by any known medical treatment the patient received.

Out of over 7,000 healing claims submitted at Lourdes since 1858, the medical bureau has rejected the vast majority, certifying only 70 cases as truly "medically inexplicable" (such as the sudden, structural regeneration of a shattered pelvic bone or the immediate clearing of advanced tuberculosis).

Even then, the scientific community labels these rare events as "spontaneous remissions"extraordinary anomalies that happen at a baseline statistical rate globally, regardless of religionrather than definitive proof of the supernatural.

Summary

If an American televangelist claims a miracle, your skepticism is 100% correct. They have never successfully documented a single structural cure under rigorous scientific observation. When "healing" happens in these settings, it is a verified triumph of psychology and human neurochemistry over the body's perception of pain, not a biological rewriting of disease.

---

Thanks for that. She's a kook in my opinion. God can heal, faith healers can not and are just humans.

---

CrackerJackAg said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

CrackerJackAg said:

---

Bart,

Yeah…. American Evangelical Protestantism has never healed anyone. I know some people are hardwired to their beliefs, but geez….

1. The Investigation of American Evangelicals
When major American faith healers have been subjected to scientific scrutiny, the "verifiable" evidence always vanishes.

Kathryn Kuhlman:

As noted previously, physician William Nolen tracked 23 specific cases of "miraculous healing" from her services. He found zero evidence of organic cure; some patients with spinal cancer had temporarily felt better due to the massive adrenaline and endorphin rush of the stage, only to suffer spinal collapses later when they stopped using their braces.

Peter Popoff & Benny Hinn:
Investigative teams and medical professionals have repeatedly challenged modern televangelists to provide medical records for their stage miracles. When investigators have followed up on individuals "healed" of cancer or blindness at these crusades, they invariably found that the individuals either still had the disease, had been misdiagnosed initially, or died shortly thereafter from abandoning their treatments.

The American Cancer Society explicitly states that available scientific evidence does not support claims that faith healing can cure physical ailments.

2. What Is Verifiable?
(The Placebo and Functional Effect)
While faith healers do not regrow limbs or reverse advanced structural tissue damage, they do achieve verifiable changes in how a patient feels. Science explains these verified shifts through specific mechanisms:
Functional vs. Organic Illness: Medical science draws a sharp line between organic diseases (like a destroyed optic nerve or a tumor) and functional symptoms (such as psychogenic blindness, hysterical paralysis, or chronic pain caused by muscle tension). Intense emotional atmospheres, religious fervor, and acute psychological suggestion can instantly alleviate functional, stress-induced symptoms.
The Neurochemical Rush: Standing on a stage in front of thousands of singing people triggers a massive surge of adrenaline, cortisol, and endorphins. This neurochemical cocktail acts as a powerful temporary painkiller, allowing a person with severe arthritis to briefly run across a stageeven though their joints remain fundamentally damaged.

3. The Contrast: Roman Catholic "Miracles"

If you are looking for religious healings that have actually passed strict medical screening, you have to look outside American Evangelicalism to the Roman Catholic Church.
Unlike evangelical crusadeswhich rely on immediate, high-emotion stage proclamationsthe Catholic Church utilizes a highly rigid, years-long bureaucratic process to vet miracles for the canonization of saints.

The Lourdes Medical Bureau: In Lourdes, France, a permanent medical bureau composed of dozens of secular doctors, professors, and specialists examines claims of miraculous healings.

Strict Criteria: To be certified as "medically unexplained," a cure must be:

1 Instantaneous.

2 Complete and permanent.

3 Formally diagnosed prior to the healing using objective metrics (X-rays, biopsies, blood panels).

4 Incapable of being explained by any known medical treatment the patient received.

Out of over 7,000 healing claims submitted at Lourdes since 1858, the medical bureau has rejected the vast majority, certifying only 70 cases as truly "medically inexplicable" (such as the sudden, structural regeneration of a shattered pelvic bone or the immediate clearing of advanced tuberculosis).

Even then, the scientific community labels these rare events as "spontaneous remissions"extraordinary anomalies that happen at a baseline statistical rate globally, regardless of religionrather than definitive proof of the supernatural.

Summary

If an American televangelist claims a miracle, your skepticism is 100% correct. They have never successfully documented a single structural cure under rigorous scientific observation. When "healing" happens in these settings, it is a verified triumph of psychology and human neurochemistry over the body's perception of pain, not a biological rewriting of disease.

---

Thanks for that. She's a kook in my opinion. God can heal, faith healers can not and are just humans.

---

I agree. Prayer and fasting and faith.

Orthodox and Catholic Saints have verifiably healed people. People can make of that what they will or ignore it as they choose.

I think the folly of the American evangelical movement, in this realm, is despite their "me and my Bible" mentality there seems to be a great deal of excitement and fervor and cult followings around personalities and people rather than God.

Honestly, I think that's how the entire reformation started.

---

Frok said:

---

The reformation started on a movement toward correct theology so I disagree that is how the movement started. But I'm protestant so of course that's my stance.

The revival movement in the 20th century can be tough for me to process. Yes I want to believe that the Holy Spirit can do things like in Acts, but I think all these people were just great showman who could stir your emotions. I presume they did it for money or fame but maybe some thought they were genuine prophets.

---

Quote:

---

I think the folly of the American evangelical movement, in this realm, is despite their "me and my Bible" mentality there seems to be a great deal of excitement and fervor and cult followings around personalities and people rather than God.

---

KingofHazor said:

---

Quote:

---

I think the folly of the American evangelical movement, in this realm, is despite their "me and my Bible" mentality there seems to be a great deal of excitement and fervor and cult followings around personalities and people rather than God.

---

Couldn't resist taking a dig at evangelicals?

Why does every RCC and seemingly most EOs on here get more worked up about Protestants than non-believers?

And, by the way, almost all evangelicals also think that she and most other faith healers are kooks.

---

Frok said:

---

The reformation started on a movement toward correct theology so I disagree that is how the movement started. But I'm protestant so of course that's my stance.

The revival movement in the 20th century can be tough for me to process. Yes I want to believe that the Holy Spirit can do things like in Acts, but I think all these people were just great showman who could stir your emotions. I presume they did it for money or fame but maybe some thought they were genuine prophets.

---

CrackerJackAg said:

---

Frok said:

---

The reformation started on a movement toward correct theology so I disagree that is how the movement started. But I'm protestant so of course that's my stance.

The revival movement in the 20th century can be tough for me to process. Yes I want to believe that the Holy Spirit can do things like in Acts, but I think all these people were just great showman who could stir your emotions. I presume they did it for money or fame but maybe some thought they were genuine prophets.

---

I do believe that you believe it was a correction of Theology.

The protestant reformation was the result of the first schism When the Roman Catholic Church separated and the reformation was an even worse attempt to correct an error. The American Protestant is the third generation and culmination of the first bad fruits.

The bad news is, we aren't even near the bottom in this country of where that's going to lead.

I don't tend to think that the God of the first couple millennia resembles what many American Protestants perceive him to be.

NOT ALL but many Protestants make God what they want him to be instead of what he is. They pray for the blessings they desire rather than what God wants them to be.

Prosperity Churches and the hopes of your tithes turning into a ten banger.

You're the one that brought up incorrect theologies, and all of that so I'm just given a quick reply.

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

CrackerJackAg said:

---

Frok said:

---

The reformation started on a movement toward correct theology so I disagree that is how the movement started. But I'm protestant so of course that's my stance.

The revival movement in the 20th century can be tough for me to process. Yes I want to believe that the Holy Spirit can do things like in Acts, but I think all these people were just great showman who could stir your emotions. I presume they did it for money or fame but maybe some thought they were genuine prophets.

---

I do believe that you believe it was a correction of Theology.

The protestant reformation was the result of the first schism When the Roman Catholic Church separated and the reformation was an even worse attempt to correct an error. The American Protestant is the third generation and culmination of the first bad fruits.

The bad news is, we aren't even near the bottom in this country of where that's going to lead.

I don't tend to think that the God of the first couple millennia resembles what many American Protestants perceive him to be.

NOT ALL but many Protestants make God what they want him to be instead of what he is. They pray for the blessings they desire rather than what God wants them to be.

Prosperity Churches and the hopes of your tithes turning into a ten banger.

You're the one that brought up incorrect theologies, and all of that so I'm just given a quick reply.

---

I'm a Protestant and I probably agree with you. But I don't think bad doctrine and false ideas of who God is is limited to Protestantism. The road is narrow, after all.

On another note, I'll never understand people who try to come up with a date for the end times.

---