College Station FF's Association Push for Civil Service and Collective Bargaining

4,038 Views | 35 Replies | Last: 2 days ago by SAC4311
camera_alerts101
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I would like the citizens of College Station to be aware of a labor and compensation initiative being pursued by the College Station Fire Department Firefighter's Association, which is a labor union; they do not represent the fire department as a whole.

Recently, this firefighters' union, again, who do not represent the entire department, has pushed the agenda, with in conjunction with the International Firefighters Association to push for civil service and collective bargaining. Please do your research before signing any petition or voting for any propositions regarding this. It is not supported by my city leadership nor the many department members.

The fire department union is pushing for civil service and collective bargaining, which will in the long run raise taxes and push funds away from the fire department operations and possible other city operations to the future funding of litigation. This history can be found in researching the Houston Fire Department and the years of litigation and arbitration, causing the firefighters to be not compensated for years by not reaching an agreement. This can cause distention in the fire department, leading to bad attitudes and less stellar service for the citizens. This is not what College Station Fire Department stands for, and this initiative will ultimately damage everything this city has worked and paid for.

The firefighters will lose excessive compensation due to the framework that the city must stay within per civil service guidelines. All hiring, promotions, pay, etc. will not be within control of the city and the firefighters will now have to fight for what is already being afforded for them concerning pay and benefits. Each firefighter stands to lose 15k-25k in compensation between this year's pay raises and incentive pays.

The fire department labor union took a vote of a small percentage of members to research becoming civil service and exploring collective bargaining without bringing the full details to light. Keep in mind, there is a large number of department members who are not union members and have no voice and no vote.
Once the vote was completed, the union fully charged the initiative with most of the voting membership, not understanding that the vote was turned from a fact-finding mission to a full charge forward with approximately 80k being spent hiring a consulting company to charge the effort. This effort starts with having a petition signed, once the required signatures are verified, it will be placed on November's ballot.

This initiative will raise taxes, defund city departments due to on-going litigation, and cut salaries of fire department members significantly. College Station Police Department explored the option and ultimately decided against it. The College Station Fire Department has been well taken care of over the last few years, salaries have been raised, incentive pay has been increased, schedule has been changed, staffing has increased but a few gamblers with voices are willing to destroy the entire department's upward trajectory because they feel the firefighters should be paid more.

There has been no transparency by the firefighter's union to the full department members (union members or non-union members) and doings have been behind closed doors. This initiative affects the entire department and city management. I would encourage you to reach out to city and fire department leadership before signing a petition or casting a vote.
EFR
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"Each firefighter stands to lose 15-25k in compensation"?
Are you implying the city plans to retaliate by cutting pay?
Possibly a bit of research before posting would be helpful. Civil service laws in no way limit how much you can pay an employee. It does however require the employee be paid for certain things.
SAC4311
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Why would Civil Service mean a cut in pay for the firefighters? Can you provide any specifics?Also didn't HFD just get significant pay raises and contract improvements and they've been Civil Service for years?

This all seems to be speculation at best and propaganda at worst. If the Firefighter's Association is pushing for this it stands to reason that it would benefit the firefighters, not hurt them.
Grmpy
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Hate unions. If you don't like the pay or job, just go work somewhere else. Turnover would force raises if in fact raises are needed.
Rapier108
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Public sector unions.
"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." - Sir Winston Churchill
camera_alerts101
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From my understanding, certification pay (paramedic pay for firefighters through Chiefs, plus advanced TCFP firefighter and degree pay) would be eliminated due to not falling within the framework of civil service. Yes, they could bargain for it later, but why when the city already offers it as an incentive. The incentive pays for an average firefighter over 30 years of employment with an average 11% return from the market clear around 1.3 million in return.
EFR
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They would be IF the city chose to. Again, civil service does not limit pay.

Additionally, how on Earth did you arrive at the statement below?

This initiative will raise taxes, defund city departments due to on-going litigation, and cut salaries of fire department members significantly.
SAC4311
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Which part of civil service would force the city to eliminate any certification pays that you are talking about? Several Civil Service departments offer certification pay, why can they have it but CSFD can't?

Wouldn't taking any pay away be a choice of the city anyway? If the money goes away before civil service then that would just seem like the city retaliating.
2020
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saturn135 said:

From my understanding, certification pay (paramedic pay for firefighters through Chiefs, plus advanced TCFP firefighter and degree pay) would be eliminated due to not falling within the framework of civil service. Yes, they could bargain for it later, but why when the city already offers it as an incentive. The incentive pays for an average firefighter over 30 years of employment with an average 11% return from the market clear around 1.3 million in return.


I'd love to see the math on this please.
SAC4311
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I've asked the OP twice and got crickets. They haven't presented any real data, statutes, facts, or proven numbers to back up their claim.

Likelihood this is post by someone from City Hall for propaganda.
NTXGuy
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So sad to see hyperbole and scare tactics.

There are approximately 150 line personnel across three shifts. Admin, etc are not eligible to be in the Association. Of the 150, 135 are dues paying members of the Association. A poll was sent to all members asking for or against Civil Service and of those that responded, 85% were for Civil Service. This is verifiable and easy to document.

As for the scare tactics, civil service / collective bargaining can be a net gain for the tax paying citizens. Being able to recruit paramedics vs train them, retaining those hired and trained, retaining experienced paramedics - these all are benefits for the citizens. Paying them a competitive wage stops them from leaving. The city . department spends 270k a year to train 7 paramedics a year. Instead of offering incentives to encourage them stay, they implement draconian contracts to try to prevent leaving .Allowing line personnel to have some say in the way the department operates is a benefit to the citizens.

Threatening employees, pulling away a raise as punishment for the legal right to organize, and campaigning against it while on shift using city resources are all violations of Texas Ethics Commission, Campaign Laws and Section 101.052 of the Texas Labor Code. Personally, I think this is the real issue here.
NTXGuy
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Forgot to add 2 important things.

1. Civil Service contracts can be written to include all of the things such as certification pay. If you follow job postings in Texas, there doesn't seem to be a single department that does NOT have certification pay. This is extremely normal and expected. This is a scare tactic to cause internal division.

2. The final ballot measure, for binding arbitration, is to avoid any long, expensive court battles that have been seen in other places. Two parties cannot agree? Binding Arbitration uses a 3rd party mediator to settle the dispute without costly legal battles and court delays.
FamousAgg
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Bryan is civil service and they get certification pay
Fishy
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[Divulging personal information about posters on this website is strictly prohibited. -Staff]
camera_alerts101
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Good detective work, but I'm disappointed you hid behind a rookie post with a new profile just to post this. Those who strongly believe in their values and long term goals and stand up against bully techniques, don't hide.
EFR
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Now that you are back, will you be addressing the blatant misinformation in your first post?
Specifically when you stated that only a small percentage of the fire department voted on it as well as please explain how anyone would lose 15-20k due to civil service passing.
camera_alerts101
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What is your question?
EFR
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How will this "defund departments and raise taxes"?
SAC4311
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Have any questions even been answered by the OP or is this post just about misdirection and misinformation?

Especially after the KBTX article came out this just seems like COCS Cronyism.
EFR
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Hopefully civil service would help put an end to the cronyism.
camera_alerts101
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There are approximately 180 CSFD firefighters this would effect, my understanding is that approximately 140 are union members that had a vote. According to the majority of the union membership, there was not a full disclosure of information regarding the pursue of civil service and collective bargaining. Only 70 members voted, resulting in a 60 members for and 10 against. So,10 of the 70 for the action of the civil service and collective bargaining are against. The full membership is not being represented. The full membership is being allowed to vote by the Fire Chief and City management to show transparency, regardless of Texas Law, approximately, 100 personnel line personnel have not had a say in this issue

The loss in pay comes from the the certification-(paramedic and firefighter) incentives, paramedic assignment pays, these can now be negotiated and not automatically retained. Everything is negotiated at his point.
Stupe
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S
Why didn't the full membership vote?
camera_alerts101
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The city will not be in control of the budget when it comes to the fire department upon implementation of civil service and collective bargaining. All wages and compensations will be at the result of the city and union negations. Any arbitration cost between the FF union and the city will fall upon the tax payers.
camera_alerts101
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Only the membership was allowed to vote, most did not, due to not being active or not understanding the full intentions. The vote to pursue this initiative did not represent the full 180 membership by any means. The Fire Chief is allowing for a full fire department vote disclosure that I hope you take in to consideration before casting your vote. Please do your homework before voting, that's all I ask.
EFR
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Does the "vote" being proposed for the whole department carry any weight? I have heard it doesn't, and is in fact being used as a way to gather names of who is for or against as members will be required to pu their names on it.
camera_alerts101
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The vote does not carry any legal weight but does show the community where the majority of the FD stands.
Bretylium
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[Posters may give their opinions on this forum in a respectful manner and posts that are disrespectful or insulting will be removed. -Staff]
SAC4311
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camera_alerts101 said:

The loss in pay comes from the the certification-(paramedic and firefighter) incentives, paramedic assignment pays, these can now be negotiated and not automatically retained. Everything is negotiated at his point.


So civil service does not require any drop in pay or benefits to the firefighters. Meaning that any loss in pay will be brought on entirely by the city. Sounds like retaliation to me.
Gunner0740
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Meaning that the city can now arbitrate how much they pay vs what benefits they offer. Basically, everything will now be a negotiation. We'll give this if you give that. My understanding is that the first thing the FD will lose is all
of their vacation and sick leave, which they will have to build back up under civil service. Furthermore, I've seen some talk about firing people being just as easy under civil service as now. That's inaccurate. Now every firing can be arbitrated. Think SAPD officer who got caught giving out fecal matter sandwiches to homeless people; got fired, arbitrations stepped in and he got his job back, got caught doing it again, finally fired.
SAC4311
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So the city will take away existing vacation hours in negotiation? Why would they do that if they want what's best for the employees?
Bretylium
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SAC4311 said:

So the city will take away existing vacation hours in negotiation? Why would they do that if they want what's best for the employees?


It's called retaliation and there's plenty of established case law pertaining to this exact issue in Texas. Not to doxx the above poster but he should know that in his line of work. A little research goes a long way. #TheMoreYouKnow
Bretylium
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camera_alerts101 said:

The city will not be in control of the budget when it comes to the fire department upon implementation of civil service and collective bargaining. All wages and compensations will be at the result of the city and union negations. Any arbitration cost between the FF union and the city will fall upon the tax payers.


I respect & appreciate your concern for the fiscal safety of taxpaying citizens such as myself. To that end I am curious of your thoughts on the lawsuit settlement that will now cost Houston taxpayers $1.5 billion, with $660 million of that in backpay to firefighters.

The assistant chief involved in that entire ordeal went on to become THE chief at college station.
Should that be a concern for us taxpayers who believe in fiscal responsibility?

Are the threats of retaliation something that could burden us with unnecessary costs? Costs that come in addition to the numerous city missteps and blunders detailed in this board's threads for some time now. Macys & the ballparks quickly come to mind….but those dead horses have probably been beaten enough. Is the city actually doing what's right in the eyes of the law? My spidey-sense is tingling hearing some of these claims in regards to what the state says is legal.
Gunner0740
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They have the ability to do so bc of arbitration. From the point that civil service goes into effect, everything is up for negotiation. "Want more pay? Cool. We're willing to do that but we're cutting the rate at which you earn vacation. Do you agree" type of thing.
Gunner0740
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In the civil service model they don't call it retaliation. They call it arbitration. And everything the fire department wants or doesn't want is dealt with through that process. Period. That's how civil service works
Bretylium
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Gunner0740 said:

In the civil service model they don't call it retaliation. They call it arbitration. And everything the fire department wants or doesn't want is dealt with through that process. Period. That's how civil service works



Correct, having worked for a municipality with civil service, collective bargaining, and binding arbitration, I understand this well. The retaliation bit is the revocation of those cert pays before the changeover as a means of coercing folks to not be in favor. The threats of removing those certification and assignment pays as well as the removal of earned vacation time meets exactly that definition.

When talking about bargaining a contract, everything is on the table. Hence the "bargaining" bit. I'm referring to actions taking place now, before any contract negotiations. Before a vote. The misinformation is strong, explains the situation with your own department. Similar coercion tactics at an accelerated pace from what I hear before they even had a vote.
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