footballfan-- A fourth reason is that 12 people are dead! They are dead! Is that not enough reason in itself?!? They are never coming back. And, unlike some people, I will never believe that any of those 12 thought that they might die up on that stack. I guess you can't volunteer to fix that one now can you?

Some have compared Bonfire to accidents. I think that comparing this to traffic accidents or airline crashes is comparing apples to oranges. Risking your life on an airplane and risking it while building a tower of logs are at two opposite ends of the spectrum. When an airline crashes, they find out what happened, fix the problem and everyone flies again in the hopes that it won't happen again. When Bonfire fell, we found out what happened, and found that fixing the problem was too costly and dangerous.

However, the tunnel vision mentioned in the Bonfire report has caused many people to throw all the facts out the window and make a judgement based purely on emotion. That kind of thinking is was got us into this mess in the first place.

I rest my case. If that doesn't convince you then I just don't think you are a rational human being.

[This message has been edited by AGGIE03 (edited 2/5/2002).]

Based on the comments on this board I do fear for our next generation of aggies.

Good luck in your future.

Aggie03 - 1st - We are going to have an off campus bonfire this November. The folks running the show have already contacted me and I committed to them to cover whatever costs necessary. Fortunately coming up with money is not as difficult for me as 99% of the people. I've worked smart and I've been fortunate. You get Bowen to change his mind and I'll show up and hand him a $2.5 million check. If you're not up to the task, I invite you to come out next November and enjoy one of A&M's greatest traditions --- Bonfire!

2nd - Safety. It's very important. When I was building bonfire in 1978, 1979, 1980 and 1981, I thought safety was very important. I helped build 4 bonfires and if we hadn't lit them, they would still be standing on the corp drill field today (might piss the corp off, but they would be there) and you would need a tank to knock them over. My bro-in-law built bonfires pre 1968 when they were twice as tall (110 feet)! Building a bonfire is not rocket science. Well maybe for kids of today it is? The SAT scores are higher today, so alledgedly you guys are smarter. 1999 was a tradgedy. A tradgedy brought on by poor construction. If you don't cut your logs flat and stand them up true and you don't wire them properly, your chances of it falling (if not before you light it, then shortly after you light it) increase significantly. And no I cannot bring those 12 good people back. I wish I could. But if mankind had given up whenever 12 people had died, then we would already be extinct. I can't guarantee that Bonfire will always be safe. If you want eternal guarantees of safety, then your life is going to be very limited!!! I will stack up the safety record of Bonfire against automobiles, sports, occupations like the oil patch, etc. People will continue to fly (your example) and there will be more airline crashes; GUARANTEED. So why do we allow flights?? Same with cars, people playing sports, many hazardous occupations, etc....... So why do we all do activites that we know have guaranteed danger, injury and death in them????

Obviously Bonfire doesn't mean enough to you for you to accept the risk and the costs. But for me and many other Aggies, IT DOES! People accept the risks and cost for things that want to do. Be it driving a car, flying in an airplane, working in a skyscraper, playing football, smoking cigarettes, drinking alcohol, eating sweets and fatty foods, and a million more examples. WHY? WHY? WHY do we humans do it when it's well documented the injuries and deaths that these things cause us?? Maybe it's because we love that activity or food, etc. We feel that it's worth the risk. I'll guarantee you that you take risks everyday. For you Bonfire isn't worth the risks. For me and many others, it is.

Lastly - "Image" It is important. Are we quitters? Will we give up everytime tradgedy slaps us in the face? We have built bonfires for over 60 years before 1999. 1999 was a tradgedy, but we will learn from it and we will not quit, We will rebuild!

Maybe kids today aren't bright enough to build a 55 footer? (I believe ya'll are) But we will find a size that you kids can build. We will (like good parents) become more involved and help you wherever you need it. We will get together each year during the week of Thanksgiving and burn our Bonfire and say our Aggie yells and sing our Aggie songs. Why? Because as Aggies that is what we love to do!

Gig'em and God Bless You.
Jeff Hamilton '82

AGGIE03 - as far as getting one saftey firl out of 600... BOWEN was the one that set the standards for the saftey firms. Plus, we did get some Saftey Firms to reply, but Bowen decided they did not meet HIS qualifications and were unworthy. No one knows what these qualifications were, or what the proposal was that was sent to the firms, but I'm willing to bet that it did not lok favorable in any light to begin with. Bowen has been biasing everything towards anti-bonfire since the beginning, and that's a fact.




Build The Hell Outta OFF-CAMPUS Bonfire

- JOEY Dobbs
Class of 2002
Off Campus Student Senator

footballfan.--I guess that's where we will have to agree to disagree. Even if you can secure the money and claim a bonfire to be safe, I will never believe it is worth that much money or risking someone's life to build it. I'm sure for many that makes me less of an Aggie, but I know I bleed maroon, and I guess that's all that matters.

I have seen this day coming for two years and why no one else has is beyond me. I know none of our 12 angels wants their name in the column to ban Bonfire BUT none of their parents wanted to plan funerals either! These were lives lost to Tradition? Is that so important that we forget the traditions these 12 and their families will miss...class rings, boots, graduations,weddings, grandchildren automatically gone forever. Aggies should be able to GET OVER Bonfire and come up with something better to unify the campus and entice freshmen into the Family. My problem is directly related to the spineless way RAY BOWEN has sidestepped the issue from responsibility to releasing his decision in bits and pieces and now leaves the ultimate vote to the incoming President. He and his inept underlings have blown every chance for a positive from a tragedy and he is not finished in dividing the student body. He should have spoken up as soon as the last burial took place and stated there would not be another Bonfire in his lifetime because of the tremendous loss we all felt. PERIOD. He has yet to take any responsibility in any form, or by any action.

I have seen this day coming for two years and why no one else has is beyond me. I know none of our 12 angels wants their name in the column to ban Bonfire BUT none of their parents wanted to plan funerals either! These were lives lost to Tradition? Is that so important that we forget the traditions these 12 and their families will miss...class rings, boots, graduations,weddings, grandchildren automatically gone forever. Aggies should be able to GET OVER Bonfire and come up with something better to unify the campus and entice freshmen into the Family. My problem is directly related to the spineless way RAY BOWEN has sidestepped the issue from responsibility to releasing his decision in bits and pieces and now leaves the ultimate vote to the incoming President. He and his inept underlings have blown every chance for a positive from a tragedy and he is not finished in dividing the student body. He should have spoken up as soon as the last burial took place and stated there would not be another Bonfire in his lifetime because of the tremendous loss we all felt. PERIOD. He has yet to take any responsibility in any form, or by any action.

Mom:

I have to agree with you totally. Although I agree with Dr. Bowen's decision, I think it could have been handled better.

He has been quoted as saying that his first thought upon hearing about the collapse was to never have a Bonfire on campus. He should have stated his intentions then. Maybe then all this division and fighting for the past couple of years could have been avoided. Sure, everyone would have been upset, but that would have been better than falsely raising everyone's hopes and then pulling the rug out.

Hey footballfan. Nice post.

-Will D., '92

www.aorbonfire.com

I support President Bowen's decision all the way. If my name were listed on every lawsuit coming up, I would be very hesitant to support something that would only add my name to future lawsuits because I said it was ok to build it. The bonfire was an accident waiting to happen and unfortunately for the 12 Aggies, it did happen. Doesn't anyone wonder why engineering companies won't undertake the task of building it. It's called liability and the lawyers are just waiting out there for an Aggie to break his thumb in the construction so they can sue for unlimited damages. Again, I support Bowen and wish him the best fortune in the future.

horse s**t

quote:

---

It's called liability and the lawyers are just waiting out there for an Aggie to break his thumb in the construction so they can sue for unlimited damages.

---

Ever hear of a LLC?

What DO you believe in AGGIE03?

Do tell. I'm dying to hear what ultra-safe, fiscally-responsible, lawyer-proof activities really float your boat.



[This message has been edited by 96AgGrad (edited 2/6/2002).]

96AgGrad--There's a lot of things I believe in, but I can tell by your message that you really don't care what I believe in. You just want to ridicule me for not agreeing with your opinion. I can talk 'til I'm blue in the face but I'll never convince you of my opinion so this is my last post on this thread because I really should be concentrating on my finance test on Friday.

I was quite serious actually. I'd really like to know what activities in your life bring you joy and still live up to the standards you've outlined so clearly in this thread for Bonfire. If you'd rather avoid the question that's fine though. Short of living in a cave, nothing does.

Good luck on your test.

The best decision Dr. Bowen could make would be to resign immediately and enter politics as a democrat. I hear Hillary needs some help.

"But there’s a spirit can ne’er be told ...
It’s the spirit of Aggieland."

Speaking of safety and liability issues...

Automobile racing has been going on since the first time two crossed paths. There have been racing drivers killed, but did it kill the sport? No. It got safer and is more competitive than it ever was.

In the mid 1950's,a French driver in a Mercedes Benz lost control at Le Mans, the car literally flying into the crowd, its magnesium body burning, killing over 80 people. Was the race at Le Mans canceled? No, spectator safety improved, and they still run the annual 24 hour race.

These were accidents.

During the Munich Olympics, Israeli athletes were taken hostage and murdered. The Olympics were postponed ONE day.

Things go on. Life continues. Bowen has thrown out the baby with the bath water. He has effectively killed Bonfire.

A solution has been offered. Go back to the beginning. Have every student bring one stick, branch, pallet, whatever, something which will burn. Put them on a pile, or in a pit, top it with the outhouse. Watch it burn while singing the War Hymn and the Spirit. Listen to the Yell Leaders' stories. Start off with something simple. Gain the admin's trust again. It can return.

"There's nothing worn under the kilt...It's all in perfect working order."

Essayons,

Flaggie
FTAB '69

[This message has been edited by flaggie (edited 2/7/2002).]

After reading these bords for a couple of days I thought I should post my thoughts. I apologize for the long post.

First off, logically I agree with the decision to cancel this bonfire, but emotionally I am split on the issue.

I'll go with emotionally first. Personally I loved bonfire, i thought it was a huge part of the tradition here(but not the only important one). To see it cancelled this year really pissed me off. But it also would never be the same for me. After it collapsed at 5 to 6 in the morning both my roommate's and mine's parents called wondering if we were ok(we did work on it that year). They both sounded so relieved (naturally) when we were ok. We went up to the site at like 6 and stayed there praying for about 3 or 4 hrs. I remember the emergency workers pulling people out of the stack...it is forever burned in my memory. I remember thinking at that moment that no human life is worth this(at least bonfire continued in this way). I think if so of the people posting on this board would have been there and seen bodies pulled then their opinions may differ.

Now Logically, I knew at that moment that bonfire would never be the same or never happen again. 12 people died in a university sponsered event. Texas A&M University is a state runned business(whether u like it or not) and the admin have to run it as such. They have to worry about such things as liability, safety concerns and image whether or not we think they out way the tradition. Bonfire would have to be privately funded...the taypayers of texas would not and rightly so want to cover the $1 to 2.5 million. NO safety consultant searched out for bonfire could afford or would pay the insurance required for them to work on bonfire. After 9/11 the insurance market has been much tighter. Exsince my dad is CEO of the largest medical insurance firm in TX and we have talked about this) each time a docter screws up and someone is killed their insurance goes up A LOT, just as insurance for bonfire after 12 people were killed would go up A LOT. Also lawyers would be licking their chops at getting ready to sue in case of a accident. Also image, as a business Texas A&M has to be concerned, they have to make sure bonfire would be as safe as possible and it would hurt the businees as such if this happened again(god willing it won't). Now u may not like some of the above(hell i don't), but this is the way the world is these days and i say people that blindly say i want bonfire back because i want it u have "tunnell vision"

Now to counter argue a few points and I'll be out of yall's hair. for those of u that say all these over events have accidents in them and continue may not consider the percentages involved(which whether u like it or not is what allows the other things to continue). In about 100 bonfires 12(13 really) have died, compared to he 100 million or so people that drive per day and the millions that fly per day. If the every time 100 people stepped into a car and plane 12 people died or if at 100 sporting events 12 people died then things would change. face it the 12 people in 100 bonfires is a vastly higher percentage then these other things. Next people are saying they would privately fund bonfire. Few things to consider: 1) people that donated would be liabiable if something happened( not excluding the land owner(it could be on campus if it was privately funded) where it was held--basically everyone involved 2) safe is still a issue--must hire a consultant, there u run into the problem of hiring one 3) getting workers, i would bet a fraction of the number of people that helped before would help in a private bonfire. I would not for my own reasons. 4) my opinion...don't u think that 1-2.5 million per year could be better used...like helping the hungry, schlorships for people o come hear, charities, a bonfire memorial, etc.

All that being said, I would love bonfire to return in some form, but changes need to be made(significant changes) for me to approve. We are Aggies we should be able to think of some way for the bonfire tradition to continue in a safe and in a form that makes everyone(well at least most people) happy. I would not support a off campus bonfire...it seems to me as disrespect to the people that died and a way of instant gracification for those involved.

sorry for any grammaical error that people seem so fond of pointing out...i am desylexic with a writing compehension disorder.

Mike Boyd Class of 01

Your logic is a bit off.

It's not 13 out of 100 that were lost. It's 13 deaths out of (100 bonfires) x (thousands of workers) x (hundreds or thousands of opportunities for a fatal accident). If you were somehow able to determine the figures for this calculation, I'd be willing to bet it compares quite favorably to automobiles or any other form of transportation.

Comparing ratios seems fairly irrelevant to me. If they're important to you, at least make it an apples and apples comparison.




[This message has been edited by 96AgGrad (edited 2/7/2002).]

I have numbers for u on that, to make u happy(I didn't feel like writing all of it out but ok I will. Facts your chances of dying on a single airline flight is about 1 to 12.4 million. There are about 41000 deadly car accidents per year....about 112 per day. 122 divided by the 100s of millions(150 for the sake of agrument)that drive--PER DAY I mind. and that is a tiny percentage...like, .00000075% or something like that. And mutiple the amount people that have flown and drivenin the past hundred years and u are talking about billions at least.
Now to bonfire say 100 bonfires time maybe average of 5000 people per year(giving u a high number too-probably averaged over 100 years it hasn't been that many). I think u get its about 1000 or 10000 times better chances to die. And mutiple the amount people that have flown and drivenin the past hundred years and u are talking about billions at least


This wasn't even the main part of my argument, if bonfire can be made safe then I am all for it.

Excellent rebuttal Aggie22279! I really had to think about it for a while. I don't mean to discount the rest of your argument. I simply hate to see statistics misused to make a point, intentional or not.

I still maintain that bonfire has historically been safer than driving on average over the last 100 years, perhaps by a factor of 2:1 or more.

(This will spiral off the main thread's topic, so if you dislike statistics or off-topic posts, read no further. The engineer in me just couldn't resist a good challenge. In the end it doesn't mean all that much, but it was fun for me )

Aggie22279's figures are good approximations of today's car safety statistics. However, they are not an accurate representation of the safety record of cars over the 100 years in question.

Granted, it would be fair to say that today's automobiles are much safer compared to Bonfire's total history. However, if we could pick and choose our timeframes so easily, it would be just as easy to say Bonfire was much safer than the history of the auto until the recent tragedy.

Just goes to show how statistics can be made to say just about anything. ANYway.......

Assumptions
----------------------------------
Timeframe:
Autos: 1900-2000
Bonfire: 100 yrs

Time/year:
Bonfire: 8 weeks/yr
Autos: 52 weeks/yr

Total people over the 100 yr span:
Bonfire: 5,000 people/yr x 100 yrs = 500,000 people

Autos: 7,533,380,000 registered cars (which should approximate and slightly exceed the number of drivers for each year. Compiled from U.S. DoT data).

Total Fatalities/100 yr span:
Bonfire: 13 fatalities
Autos: 3,099,232 fatalities (U.S. DoT data)

Calculations
-----------------------------------
Auto fatality rate over the last 100 years:
3,099,232 total fatalities/6.5 (to average the same 8 wk/yr span as Bonfire) = 476,805 fatalities

(476,805 deaths/7,533,380,000 "people") = .000063 or 6.3 deaths per 100,000 people.

Bonfire fatality rate over the last 100 years:
(13 deaths/500,000 people) = .000026 or 2.6 deaths per 100,000 people.

If every one of my assumptions were true, Bonfire would be 2.4 times safer (They aren't, but maybe they're in the ballpark. I tried to give the benefit of the doubt to the auto scenario, so hopefully my answer is conservative)


Sources:

Automobile information 1900 to 1995: http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/summary95

Automobile information 1995 to 2000:
http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/



[This message has been edited by 96AgGrad (edited 2/7/2002).]

I stand corrected on that...good stats. I stand corrected on cars, but the airplane stat is off FAA website(1 in 12.4 million) I guess my whole point was that people are saying we should quit this and quit that because people die, but they don't take other considerations into account. Money(the industry gets and gives) and neccessity are two i can think of off the top of my head why car and planes are still used.

SAFTEY. SAFTEY. SAFTEY.

you are all throwing out quotes and calculations about what is safer or riskier. The fact is, a huge project like Bonfire will always have great risk involved. That is one of the reasons that made it so great. Through great risk come great bonds and unity and much more. No one was ever forced to work on bonfire at gunpoint, they were (mostly) volunteers. I do not believe that anyone truely thought that something like Bonfire was risk-proof.

NOTE: This does not solve the problem with insurance companies and Saftely Consultants.

My point here is that with cars, planes, sky-diving, and much more, we as humans have to weigh the benefits versus the risks. We make the CHOICE to risk it with dangerus activities every day.

Bonfire will never be 100% safe, and it shouldn't be. I believe that we should minimize the risk of huge catastrophies like 1999, and there are many other things to lessen the risk that could be done. But Bonfire was not just a fire, it was bonds created through shared termoil because of long days in the heat chopping down trees, loading trucks, and stacking logs. It was personal triumph through unified teamwork. But above all it was pleasure knowing that you did something that no other school can do, something tough, hard, dangerous, and amazing.

Build the hell outta OFF-CAMPUS Bonfire,
- Joey Dobbs '02

Sorry that stats thing got a little out of hand, if u read my first post that wasn't even the main part of my post.

Mike Boyd Class 01

This all goes back to Bowen. Instead of asking the questions about safety & insurance, etc., he set parameters that he knew would doom any future Bonfire on his watch. It has been stated that all of the safety engineers bailed on the job. Did we consult them first & ask them what was their opinions & solutions? NO. Bowen said it's got to be this-now make it fit. Well don't blame them, I'd bail out too.
Secondly,the excuse is cost. I've looked at the breakdown & it appears that many of those items are 1)bureaucratic add-ons which don't need to be there 2) added costs due to Bowen's overly strict parameters & 3) one time items (i.e. concrete pad) which would not have to be paid every year. So in fact the cost would go down, not up. Finally we've already seen some ready to pay the bill from their own pocket. My opinion on that is, what people want to spend their money on is their business, as long as it's legal. If they want to pay for Bonfire more power to 'em. If I had that kind of money I'd make the same offer. If I had Bill Gates type money, I'd buy 'em for what they're worth & sell 'em for what they think they're worth & make a profit & still have Bonfire.
There is no reason or excuse on this earth for not allowing people to do their jobs, come up with a safe, cost effective, and legal Bonfire which would satisfy those criteria & us Ol Ags as well. Bowen chose the easy way out, plan to fail, fail & pass it on to someone else.

[This message has been edited by TNAg76 (edited 2/8/2002).]

Bowen is spineless, no doubt about it. He has badly mishandled the injured students and their families. They deserve much compensation. But, he is facing incredible lawsuits, and was just CYA.

Lawsuits are necessary, but not after waivers are signed realizing the full impact of danger involved in events. Follow the money, and you'll see why Bowen did this.

I have no real issues with ending bonfire; after all, it would be just another excuse for someone to say "pay up".

Ok yeah I wasn't going to post again, but here's an interesting tidbit....

Because of the way the University views risk management now, I don't think they could ever make a Bonfire safe enough for the University to approve it.

I am going to a Delta Gamma semi-formal this weekend in Bryan. Because of the "risks" involved in everyone driving to Bryan and back, we have to meet at the DG house and take a bus to downtown. I am not kiddding!! That is how far the University has gone with risk management. It borders on ridiculous. If the University thinks it's that risky to drive to Bryan, imagine what it thinks the risks of Bonfire are.

I do agree that some stuff has gone way to far and do agree that we can find a way to have a "safe" bonfire. The reason the university has to be careful is that there are stupid people in the world that will do something stupid and want to blame it on someone else. It sucks, but that is the way the world is. Also just because u sign a waiver doesn't mean u can't sue someone.

Let me first say this: I am not trying to turn this into a religous discussion.

Mom '03 and the rest of you who are guilty of this: Don't call the 12 ANGELS. I assure they were not angels in life (no one is), nor are they angels in death. I know most people don't realize there could be antyhing offensive about calling them that. However I think I speak for my family (definitely myself) when I say it is offensive to our religious beliefs for you to use that word in reference to anyone who has died. We do not believe that is what we become when we die, so please do not call my family member that just because she is in Heaven. Thank you for respecting our beliefs.

Sort of like getting captured in battle automatically makes you a war hero. That one's always bugged me.

[This message has been edited by 96AgGrad (edited 2/8/2002).]

Geo:

quote:

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Mom '03 and the rest of you who are guilty of this: Don't call the 12 ANGELS.

---

Why is it offensive to you when other people are "doctrinally challenged" ?

My family has been putting up with this misguided (however well intentioned) terminology for nearly 2 and a half years. It's about all I can take of it and I would just like for it to quit.

And if you hear someone say they "gave their lives for Bonfire," please correct them. No one voluntarily died for Bonfire. They did not have a choice. A tragic accident TOOK their lives. Okay, I am done venting now, please excuse my deviation from the topic.

[This message has been edited by GeoAggie03 (edited 2/8/2002).]

GEO AGGIE, you take whatever doctrine you feel comfortable with and keep it as your own. But Jamie Hand is an angel! All of the students involved were normal and human but to their parents they were and are and will forever be angels. I don't know how old you are but you aren't old enough to tell me that MY children aren't gifts from MY God and he and I view them as Angels.

Might as well step into the fray. I have only made a couple of Bonfires since I graduated, mainly because they weren't as meaningful to me as they were when I was there. Why? Because I didn't help BUILD them. I spent 4 years in the Corps and built the hell outta four of them. The point I am trying to make is this: The best part of Bonfire isn't in the burning, it is in the building. The students at A&M now won't be able to experience this and that is a sad fact. But on the positive side, it seems to me that any group that can pull together in just a week or so getting 70,000+ football fans color coordinated on three decks of Kyle Field ought to be able to come up with a viable plan for Bonfire. How about it Army?

I don’t know exactly what the bent of Dr. Bowen’s agenda on the Bonfire, since I am out on the west coast. But a few things I would like to say.
As for litigation, remember that most of the lawyers in the state of Texas are tsips. They probably have been sitting around (sipping tea ) planning their law suits of Texas A&M and any prominent Aggies participating in Bonfire or future Bonfires.

As for off-campus Bonfire, there is no reason that it would degrade the tradition. After all, the wood is gathered off campus. When I was attending Texas A&M back in the `60s, everyone lived on campus, with very few exceptions. I thought that when students were allowed to live off campus it would dissipate the spirit of the student body. But apparently that has not been the case. So why not just move the Bonfire off campus and establish a separate entity to govern, fund, and administrate it. Then the University would not have the (tsip) litigation hanging over its head.

In today’s political climate, I can’t see how any public administrator could propose the Bonfire as a taxpayer sponsored function. Politics couldn’t disband it before the `99 accident but can’t support it afterwards.

I believe the Bonfire has strong significance as a process of bonding Aggies together, as well as a tradition which bonds present Aggie students to the former Aggie students (and those adopted into the Aggie family, i.e. wives and would-have-been Aggies). There are a number of “bonding processes” like “Ropes” which have been developed as a means of bonding teams together, and they all require physical danger and physical exertion. But NONE can compare to the Aggie Bonfire experience .

As for the “12 Angels” comments, While I agree with GEO AGGIE that it is a “theologically inaccurate” reference, confusing the “created humans who we hope are in the presence of God” with the “created spirit beings, who never had physical bodies, who are in the presence of God”. But since this is not the “Religion & Philosophy” board, I will allow poetic license.

I am in agreement with Rebbasser:

quote:

---

But on the positive side, it seems to me that any group that can pull together in just a week or so getting 70,000+ football fans color coordinated on three decks of Kyle Field ought to be able to come up with a viable plan for Bonfire. How about it Army?

---

How about it Army?