Great response Coker. I concur.

Sorry Scott, I didn't mean to make it seem like I was trying to turn this into a "girls responsibilities were taken away simply because they're girls" because I know that's not true. I have a pretty good idea why the change occured, and more or less, I suppose I can understand why that occured.

I agree with NSG's assesment of the situation as well. I think that it's unfair, and if the organization as a whole takes on that attitude, it could be in for a rough ride. But as long as there are older folks who can see without the blinders on up at the top whose best interests are in the organization and not some boyish absurdity that they're more capable than women, then I think that is an excellent thing.

Your consideration of a female predecessor is admirable no doubt. But much like it is in the NFL and MLB, until a "minority" is actually chosen for the job, then it's all just "coachspeak", if you will. I believe you would be capable of seeing what's best for the organization, my concern is that many of the guys out there simply wouldn't respect a girl as a leader just because she's a girl. I need only to refer to Slim's original post before he edited it due to sexism.

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my concern is that many of the guys out there simply wouldn't respect a girl as a leader just because she's a girl.

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If she was truly qualified...it wouldn't make a difference.

you also have to understand, and this has shown up here and there the past couple of years, that leadership (male or female) will not automatically get respect...

[This message has been edited by TexasRebel (edited 4/21/2007 2:55p).]

Girls can't be Reds cause they swing an axe like a girl, duh. The moment they swing, they lose all oportunity for advancement.

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If she was truly qualified...it wouldn't make a difference.

you also have to understand, and this has shown up here and there the past couple of years, that leadership (male or female) will not automatically get respect...

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True and not true.

There is research out there (if you want the articles, I will gladly point you to them) that in patriarchal societies and male-dominated groups, women have consistently been overlooked because of their femininity... and those who aren't feminine are discounted because they're abnormal.

Define "qualified" (rhetorically, I mean -- you don't have to justify this to me). What one person deems to be qualified might be unqualified in someone else's book.

My point is that women face a lot of struggles in an organization with the culture similar Bonfire because masculine values prevail over feminine values... Women are subservient by nature in such a culture - and those who defy "nature" are abnormal. People tend to magnify those abnormalities and most of the time, hold such abnormalities against the deviant.

I'm giving you this from my research on the manner in which gender affects leadership and power... I'm not making it up. I'd LOVE to see a respected woman in a Redpot, but I'll believe it when I see it.

As far as the leadership/respect issue... groups have predetermined levels of acceptable behavior. Generally, people must conform to those norms to be broadly respected. It has to do with legitimacy, which is another can'o'worms.

you sound so educated maybe i should go to grad school...

[This message has been edited by WH08PsyJayci (edited 4/23/2007 7:44p).]

Coming from a 'worthless middle-aged' guy, I figure the top qualities they're looking for in 'leadership' would be:
1. Able to assess & mitigate risk/risky behavior: i.e. is able to spot people being dumb and making them stop whatever it is they were doing.
2. Capable of presenting & acting in a professional manner for fund raising & donation purposes as well as the continual bargaining for land for cut & stack sites. Also included in 'professional manner' includes the ability to put aside personal issues and able to work in a high-stress environment without causing added stress to colleagues.
3. Able to manage groups of people to work as efficiently, safely, and quickly as possible
4. Proper communication skills (verbal & electronic communication)
5. Finally, an above fantastic work ethic. Even if all the other qualities are shown in some manner or another but the work ethic isn't there, I'd probably venture to say that the person is completely unqualified. There is a lot of work done behind the scenes that most people have no idea goes on and without the work ethic things will end up not getting done which is completely unacceptable.




[This message has been edited by Predmid (edited 4/23/2007 10:23p).]

passion, knowledge, and experience of/for Bonfire, and the ability to offer something very uniquely helpful are key.

Or just have a tremendous rack... like Sue did.


Ok, now read it again like you don't know who Sue is... I'M A RAGING SEXIST.

P.S. Sue is totally a sloot.

I love Sue... and his rack!





I know it's hard to see what I'm saying, especially when you're so deeply involved. But do try to understand. There is validity in it.

There are situations where women look like they are eliciting authority outside of their domain in cultures similar to that of Bonfire... even if they're granted such authority (I'm speaking from first-hand experience as a Green now -- i.e. Moses-Green conflict in '04 among MANY other examples).

That's all I'm saying -- there's tasks associated with upper leadership deemed inappropriate for females. Even if a woman can do it, she might not be respected for doing so UNLESS leadership works from all angles to break down such preconcieved notions.

As far as the fundraising/presenting the face of Bonfire... that won't fly to some die-hard Old Ags. Some of the big money out there wants it to be the way it was in their day (mainly old codgers stuck in their ways -- and this doesn't represent ALL of Old Army). Again, it takes a concerted effort for a woman to succeed in such a position.

Oh and Jayci -- grad skool make me fill dumb 4 a whyle. I happi you see me edumacated.

No really, it has kicked my arse but I feel better for it (similar to the way Bonfire can do ya)!

The fundraising "face of Bonfire" is an extremely valid point I hadn't thought of. I mean, I am sure there are groups that might donate in light of there being a female red, but there are far more that would NOT donate BECAUSE of a female red. This is a fundraising issue throughout all of the A&M network. Comparable to a female yell leader, some ol' farts would shet a golden brick over that. (which in a way is fundraising, lol... I digress) Plus you have limited time to "win them over" or generally earn any respect.

Now, inside the woods, I think there is potential for a different situation. The longevity of Bonfire yields to a turning of the tides if you will. The first weekend or two might be... err.. will be hell (some will just be passive aggressive), but eventually and through some "legendary feat" (ex. some feat of strength, a public display, or legendary folk-like tale about someone. Case in point, my lekner kidz knew about and respected... dear I say, feared Token before they met him, just from stories they heard from other crews or old guys. When he met them, he challenged one and lived up to it. They love him now.) and some hard work, respect will come around. I still personally think it might work, but as previously stated with lots of tension and vast difficulty. The point being that this is the type of person who is going to break that boundary. Someone who CAN take it, deal with it directly, remain focused on the whole of bonfire despite the animosity, and at the end of the day have done a solid day's work, themselves and having exacted it from the bonfire entirety.


Honestly though, for the sake of the organization, I hope it is a few years down the road (pending a litigation breakthrough... that changes EVERYTHING) because as opposed to what some people on here may think, Student Bonfire is still in its infantile, or at least adolescent, stage. A movement such as this runs the potential to divide the organization, breaking or stopping progressive momentum. Some crews are only a few years removed from their very own fire, and the outward public perception has been deplorable at times recently. With a little time and progression, Student Bonfire will one day be able to withstand that sort of internal controversy.

I tend to agree with you SnoBall... even if a female Redpot probably would better handle the change (though she'd probably not be effective for the reasons you listed -- needing the support of the organization but not getting it because of other, equally and more important issue).

I was thinking about this question last night, which is really lame, but...

would a girl actually take the position if offered it, anyway? i can't think of a single girl that i know that would.

would you be able to blame her for not taking it given the amount of **** she would have to endure and the lack of respect she would be given?

ellemeno, I heard throught eh grapevine that the girls' authority out there is being diminished almost daily, why would "upper" leadership be any different?

it's probably through the necessity of the position, rather than the actual presence of female leaders. and if you're talking about green pots, then no, i definitely feel that they are not considered "upper" leadership. Maybe in previous years, but it doesn't seem to be that way this year in particular.

and as far as a girl having to endure the initial lack of respect and all the extra weight of breaking in a new thing, i wouldn't blame anyone for turning that down. trailblazing may be admirable, but it's definitely not easy. And as a 20 something year old female, attending a university with many facets of difficulty, i would not imagine bringing a challenge like that upon myself if i were in that situation.

what does that say about an organization if it would be so hard for a female to break into a leadership position? We're not talking about a black female muslim candidate for president here, we're talking about a girl in ASB.

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what does that say about an organization if it would be so hard for a female to break into a leadership position? We're not talking about a black female muslim candidate for president here, we're talking about a girl in ASB.

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Well, there's never been a female president of the united states, Up until 6 months ago, there had never been a female speaker of the house and there has been only 4 women newly elected to the senate since ASB's inception. What does that say about the American people/the Government of the United States?

I find it entirely unlikely that it is the fault of the organization that there has been no women brown/red pots. Which bring us back to most everyone's main point:

There will definitely be a female upper leader when one shows their worth out at cut/stack/etc as a competent, wiling, and tough enough candidate to do what is required for such positions.

given the current state of diminishing female leadership in ASB, I don't see that is the direction being taken.

I'm a know-nothing 'old' grunt laborer. Take my words with grains of salt. I should hope that female leadership isn't being eliminated/overlooked unfairly.

[This message has been edited by Predmid (edited 5/17/2007 6:32p).]

do some asking around and make your own call

I don't think it's being eliminated altogether, I think that the responsibilities are diminishing though. And I don't think that it's due to the incapabilities of the girls, rather the red pot staff just got much bigger and they aren't needed to do the things that they normally do because there's enough reds to do it all instead.

I once read in a history or government book...or something like that...that this systems of checks and balances thing is pretty effective and works pretty well. Anybody know anything about that?

You could go to the board meeting elec..oh wait. You haven't been a participant for 3 years. Never mind. You don't get a vote.

2, and it's good to know that those not on the board don't have an opinion.

You and your attitude are precisely what's wrong with bonfire.

And what attitude is that?

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And what attitude is that?

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-->telling people that bc they haven't been involved in a couple years that they don't matter and don't have an opinion.

it's closed minded and arrogant. and that's why people are turned off to bonfire. because of things like that.

anybody should be able to criticize the organization. square actually has a decent perspective into the organization...after all, he does live with a green pot.

not only that, he was involved for 3 years, once by proxy of the dorm and the others was his actual participation. if seeing the organization at work firsthand isn't room enough to criticize, then i think that you need to be knocked off of your horse and open your ears because the fact of the matter is, the organization is not perfect, and as it grows better every year, it still has quite a ways to go.

[This message has been edited by Ellemenoquo (edited 5/19/2007 2:03p).]

well said. It could even be argued that an objective point of view may sometimes be one of the best to consider. Looking at things from within an organization can cause extreme bias and I think that's a big issue within bonfire...and has been for a long long time.

It's not fair to say that all bonfire people are arrogant in their own way, but some are, that can't really be argued. And pred, you're one of them, especially when making comments like that.

PS. Terry your dues were paid in case you wanted to come out and tape yellow leaves to your pot.

[This message has been edited by WH08PsyJayci (edited 5/20/2007 7:21p).]

That would be one hell of a coup...sounds awfully familiar to me. And didn't I leave the woods that day with about 7 other people? Strange...!

So wait, all I have to do is pay a few bucks and I can stage another mutiny?

I'd like to know how pred would feel about answering directly to a female, same for the rst of you, excluding Jayci. How would you all handle taking your problems and issues to and receiving direction from a girl, both out in the woods and elsewhere.

And Slim, I advise you, like you've already been advised by your peers, to keep mum on this issue since we already know what you think about women's ability to lead.

Square-

You just described... "being married".

[This message has been edited by Redass2oo2 (edited 5/20/2007 11:58p).]

hahahahaha awesome

I have absolutely no issues with taking orders from women. I don't know where you get that impression.

What I do have issues with is following orders from unqualified leadership, man or woman.

I never implied that you had an issue with it. However, based on my conversations with that Green I live with, as well as Slim's previous remarks, girls aren't very well respected out there and their leadership is certainly undermined by guys. So I think this is a valid question. And I may be going out on a limb here, and I could be wrong, but I don't think you would handle having a female superior all too well.

Might you also know something about unqualified leadership? You said something about having a problem taking direction from unqualified leaders, of whom were you speaking of?