Thoughts?

Such a thing assumes foreknowledge caused his betrayal. There are any number of examples where that's not the case (e.g. I know the sun is going to rise tomorrow but I won't cause the event, at least not to my knowledge). Additionally, I believe God exists outside of the confines of time, thus making the concept of cause and effect moot.

Judas acted on his own free will. I think we do get it wrong in our painting of what happened as a betrayal - Judas used Christ for his own personal gain. I think it plays out over and over again when you see people enriching themselves at God's expense.

Remember, God is infinite in time and space.

We have to be patient and see what is going to happen, God doesn't. God is already there, in the future, he knows what will happen because he is already there, at the place where it has already happened. It's not that he caused it to happen, he just knows what his creation, man, each one of us, has decided and where it leads us.

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e.g. I know the sun is going to rise tomorrow but I won't cause the event, at least not to my knowledge

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You do not know that sun will rise. You think it will and expect it to, but you do not control it completely like an omnipotent allknowing god would. If you define your idea of a god as being omnipotent and allknowing then that deity is responsible everything and the deity desires everything to happen exactly as it does. Simple Logic.

That's dumb. God gives us all free will. Judas had free will, and blew it. We are not God's automaton robots. Just because God can see the future and knew what Judas was going to do, doesn't mean he caused it.

So god knew what was going to happen and he didn't intervene?

By not stopping christ's execution, isn't god also responsible for the death of his son/himself?

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So god knew what was going to happen and he didn't intervene?

By not stopping christ's execution, isn't god also responsible for the death of his son/himself?

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Nice troll there.

Perhaps the sacrifice of his son was for a greater purpose.

So god knew what was going to happen and he didn't intervene?

By not stopping christ's execution, isn't god also responsible for the death of his son/himself?
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Jesus knew He was gonna be crucified/killed before it all happened

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So god knew what was going to happen and he didn't intervene?

By not stopping christ's execution, isn't god also responsible for the death of his son/himself?

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Man is responsible for killing his creator. God allowed it to happen so that man could be saved. In other words, Jesus died on the cross for you and me. He paid the penalty for your sins. And that is something you should both thank and praise God for every day of your life. The alternative is hell.

Part of the miracle that is the crucifixion and resurrection is that Jesus did it of his own free will.

And my knowledge of the sun rising isn't necessarily any different from any other type of foreknowledge if it is shown I'm right. And sure enough the sun rose just like I told you it would.

When Texas Land & Cattle restaurant puts a ribeye steak in front of me, they know that I will eat it, with gusto. The fact that they know that doesn't mean that they caused that to happen. I do it of my own free will.

Let's try to remember the true definition of free will. We all make choices, but free will is the ability to make UNCAUSED choices.
Think about that for awhile.

What do you mean by uncaused?

Do you really believe that God "forces" you against your inner desires?

Does God influence you? Perhaps. But have you ever felt the decisions you were making were not your own choice? I have felt suggestions but not coercion.

No man's inner desires are good.

The scriptures seak no such thing as free will.
In fact, they even tell us we do not choose God on our own. He must first drag us to Him.

Sorry, should say speak, not seak.

I don't think so boss

As for Judas, I think he gets a bad rap as far as how most people look at him. He lived with Christ for approximately 3 years. He certainly did know Christ was who He said he was.
You have to remember, Judas probably did not fully understand the full plan, even though Christ told him over again. (that He must die and be resurrected)What Judas wanted was an overthrow, which he knew Christ could accomplish. He saw several miracles first-hand.
I truly believe what Judas was trying to do was force the issue in how he wanted things to play out. Of course, that wasn't going to happen.
I know the King James uses the word 'betray', but the Hebrew word actually translates 'to hand over'. Maybe it was a betrayal, maybe it wasn't.
Just something to think about.

Also, there is the issue of the 30 pieces of silver. In those days it was the law that it be paid for information. Did Judas really do it for the money? In my mind, very doubtful.

Back to free will, another subject topic on this page looks at Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

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The scriptures seak no such thing as free will.

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Wrong - They most certainly do speak of free will.

2 Corinthians 8:3: For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own free will,

Philemon 1:14: but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.

I'm a little uncomfortable with the notion that God has "free will" - I'm not sure that God has free will like we do. If free will is the ability to make choices without constraints (thanks wikipedia! - and im not sure we have that), then I don't think that God has that. I would say that God has freedom, but God's freedom is the freedom to be who God is - to act according to God's being. So if God is love according to John, then God has the freedom to act loving. If God isn't hatred, then God doesn't have the freedom to act hateful. We are children of God made in God's image but we don't always have the freedom to be that in a world of sin.

I'm also uncomfortable with God being omnipotent or omniscient (or any of the classic omni traits). It seems like those are labels we have placed on God through Greek philosophy rather than learning it from the Scriptures. It's easy to read Scripture through the lens of Greek philosophy and see those things, but I'm not sure that it's really what Scripture is saying. If the greatest revelation of God is Jesus, then can we really give all these "omni" traits to God? Was Jesus omniscient as a baby? Was Jesus omnipresent when he asks "who touched my cloak?" Was Jesus omnipotent as a weak dying man on a cross? If Jesus was fully human, how was he any of these "omni" traits? To be all-knowing or all-powerful means you aren't human.

I'm not sure that I buy into it, but I would be interested to hear what others have to say.

Good questions. Jesus was fully man and fully God at the same time (the hypostatic union). He even said that He (being God) did not know the exact time of the end of the world (Mark 13:32). At other times, He appeared able to read people's minds and their thoughts (Luke 6:8). The only thing I can come up with is that He could turn on and turn off His God power at will, like when He was transfigured. I could be wrong on this, though. Just my personal opinion.

That's not what those two verses say...they speak no such thing as free will. Willingly does not equal free will.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The disciples thought at first that they had free will. They never dreamed they would deny Christ...they did.

Romans 8:20 Because the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope

Probably 99 out of 100 Christians believe we have a free will, but the wisdom of man is but foolishness to God.

We are no more than clay in the potter's hands.
Whatever good things we may do, God MUST get the glory, not us.

Didn't Jeasus warn them so they could change their ways. Peter will deny me, and one would betray?

Jesus told them what WOULD happen.
Even having heard in advance, they still did what He said they would do.
Of course Christ was not "giving them a chance" to do differently.

I will have to find an interesting article that I read recently. Essentially, the premise was that God was not limited by the dimension of time. He is past, present, and future. I am probably not doing it justice, will find it...

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I will have to find an interesting article that I read recently. Essentially, the premise was that God was not limited by the dimension of time. He is past, present, and future. I am probably not doing it justice, will find it...

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Kind of like...

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Remember, God is infinite in time and space.

We have to be patient and wait see what is going to happen, God doesn't. God is already there, in the future, he knows what will happen because he is already there

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If you define your idea of a god as being omnipotent and allknowing then that deity is responsible everything and the deity desires everything to happen exactly as it does. Simple Logic.

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Actually, it's "false" logic.

Having the ability to control is quite different than choosing to use that ability. Also, causing an outcome is different than having desired the resulting outcome.

craigernaught...I know the King James says God made man in His own image, but I just wanted to clarify that a better translation should read more like "in the process of making man in His own image".

I'm watching the Chosen. I've always struggled with the idea that Judas is damned. It just seems so unfair. Was he damned because he could not repent due to his suicide? Are we only allowed to repent while we are in the flesh?

Side note:

I took a pretty significant detour from Christ the last few years. I studied eastern religions and philosophy. I still try to meditate and follow the general teachings, but I could never get over the idea of non-soul and no creator. Jesus kept calling me back…even when I denied him.

Unlike Judas, I am so fortunate that God didn't take me before I could learn the errors of my way.

Queso1 said:

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I'm watching the Chosen. I've always struggled with the idea that Judas is damned. It just seems so unfair. Was he damned because he could not repent due to his suicide? Are we only allowed to repent while we are in the flesh?

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Matt. 27:3 Then when Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus was condemned, he changed his mind and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders.

Seems like he repented to me.