The innocent Palestinians we should weap for.

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AGC
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 9:57a, 3/13/25
AG
Sapper Redux said:
AGC said:
Sapper Redux said:
AGC said:
Sapper Redux said:
Quo Vadis? said:
BonfireNerd04 said:
I am a person who admires Judaism, but too lazy to convert.


What does that mean?


Converting to Judaism is a process that takes years of intense study supervised by a rabbi who agrees to support the person.


"Intense" is relative to the rabbi, and reform (as you know) has all types of rabbis.


Your hatred of Reform Judaism is repeatedly noted.


I have a relative that converted. I've got some insight you might not appreciate but nonetheless is true.


Cool. You've got one relative. There aren't very many people that convert to Judaism and of those, very few do conversions that don't meet a minimum standard. If they don't, those conversions are likely to not be recognized by anyone outside of that one synagogue. That goes for Reform congregations, Conservative, and certainly Orthodox. If they didn't go through study, have a formal Mikvah ceremony, a formal Beit Din of 3 rabbis, a Brit Milah or hatafat dam brit (if male), they won't be recognized as properly converted.


I'm well aware, and I know what they've gone through. They recommended some books to me along the way too. Some here in this thread and forum might find it useful, it would probably reshape some of the responses:

https://www.amazon.com/Words-That-Hurt-Heal-Revised/dp/0062896377
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swimmerbabe11
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10:15a, 3/13/25
I always wish that just for this board we had tags where we labeled our denom so I could stop trying to remember everyone's beliefs. like Derms could say "loves everybody, hates calvinism" and mine could be "Lutheran (LCMS never ELCA) etc. I hate being like "did I forget that this guy is Jewish?" or "oh hey, he became Catholic and I didn't notice"
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747Ag
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 10:17a, 3/13/25
AG
swimmerbabe11 said:
I always wish that just for this board we had tags where we labeled our denom so I could stop trying to remember everyone's beliefs. like Derms could say "loves everybody, hates calvinism" and mine could be "Lutheran (LCMS never ELCA) etc. I hate being like "did I forget that this guy is Jewish?" or "oh hey, he became Catholic and I didn't notice"
You're not alone. Often confused myself about other posters myself. And Orthodox posters getting called Catholic multiple times over.
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 10:24a, 3/13/25
AG
swimmerbabe11 said:
I always wish that just for this board we had tags where we labeled our denom so I could stop trying to remember everyone's beliefs. like Derms could say "loves everybody, hates calvinism" and mine could be "Lutheran (LCMS never ELCA) etc. I hate being like "did I forget that this guy is Jewish?" or "oh hey, he became Catholic and I didn't notice"


Do we have to make a separate one for non-denom, or can we force them to say Baptist?
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kurt vonnegut
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10:27a, 3/13/25
AG
Can my tag just be this:

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Quo Vadis?
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 1:55p, 3/13/25
Sapper Redux said:
Quo Vadis? said:
BonfireNerd04 said:
Quote:
"A gentile who studies Torah is liable for death"

Sanhedrin 59a

The prohibition refers to in-depth study of Jewish law that is specific to Jews. A non-Jew following not required of them (such as Shabbat observance) is seen as improper (unless they're in the process of converting to Judaism or otherwise have a good reason for it).

Note that the very same passage says that a gentile who studies the Seven Laws of Noah "is considered like a High Priest".

And also that there is not a single recorded historical instance of a Jewish court actually killing a non-Jew for studying the wrong parts of the Torah. Jews generally treats the death penalty like the state of California does: Something that a lot of people theoretically deserve, but hardly anybody actually gets. The modern State of Israel (albeit a secular state and not a theocracy) has only put two criminals to death in its entire history.

Relevant Q&A on judaism.stackexchange.com.

Quote:
"If the ox of a Jew gores the ox of a canaanite there is no liability, but if an ox of a canaanite gores the ox of a Jew, he pays full damages"
Bava Kamma 37b

This is another one of those rules that applies when Jews and non-Jews have separate legal systems.

Quote:
"The offspring of a gentile is like that of a beast"
Yevamot 98a. At least, that's the closest thing I could find. "The offspring of a male gentile is considered no more related to him than the offspring of donkeys and horses."

The context is a discussion of the laws regarding inheritance, incest, intermarriage, paternity, and other family law stuff. A practical application is if a non-Jewish man has children and later converts to Judaism. In Jewish law, his non-Jewish children are not automatically considered his heirs.

And let's face it, there are cultures existing today where paternity is often in question, and where people breed "like animals".

It's not saying that the offspring of a gentile is like a beast in terms of lacking human rights and dignity.

BTW, how come you didn't cite any of your quotes?


I didn't see the need to cite them, are they in the Torah or not?

Also, I had thought you were Christian, are you Jewish as well?


In a couple cases you've quoted something not in the Talmud but attributed to the Talmud by antisemitic memes propagated by Neo-Nazis. So where did you get your quotes?


Some book by Henry Ford. On Google where do you think?
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Quo Vadis?
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In reply to 747Ag • 1:56p, 3/13/25
747Ag said:
swimmerbabe11 said:
I always wish that just for this board we had tags where we labeled our denom so I could stop trying to remember everyone's beliefs. like Derms could say "loves everybody, hates calvinism" and mine could be "Lutheran (LCMS never ELCA) etc. I hate being like "did I forget that this guy is Jewish?" or "oh hey, he became Catholic and I didn't notice"
You're not alone. Often confused myself about other posters myself. And Orthodox posters getting called Catholic multiple times over.


I want one that says "MUH REMNANT" and has links to prophecies from Maria Divine Mercy and Medjugorje trutherism
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Quo Vadis? • 1:57p, 3/13/25
Quo Vadis? said:
Sapper Redux said:
Quo Vadis? said:
BonfireNerd04 said:
Quote:
"A gentile who studies Torah is liable for death"

Sanhedrin 59a

The prohibition refers to in-depth study of Jewish law that is specific to Jews. A non-Jew following not required of them (such as Shabbat observance) is seen as improper (unless they're in the process of converting to Judaism or otherwise have a good reason for it).

Note that the very same passage says that a gentile who studies the Seven Laws of Noah "is considered like a High Priest".

And also that there is not a single recorded historical instance of a Jewish court actually killing a non-Jew for studying the wrong parts of the Torah. Jews generally treats the death penalty like the state of California does: Something that a lot of people theoretically deserve, but hardly anybody actually gets. The modern State of Israel (albeit a secular state and not a theocracy) has only put two criminals to death in its entire history.

Relevant Q&A on judaism.stackexchange.com.

Quote:
"If the ox of a Jew gores the ox of a canaanite there is no liability, but if an ox of a canaanite gores the ox of a Jew, he pays full damages"
Bava Kamma 37b

This is another one of those rules that applies when Jews and non-Jews have separate legal systems.

Quote:
"The offspring of a gentile is like that of a beast"
Yevamot 98a. At least, that's the closest thing I could find. "The offspring of a male gentile is considered no more related to him than the offspring of donkeys and horses."

The context is a discussion of the laws regarding inheritance, incest, intermarriage, paternity, and other family law stuff. A practical application is if a non-Jewish man has children and later converts to Judaism. In Jewish law, his non-Jewish children are not automatically considered his heirs.

And let's face it, there are cultures existing today where paternity is often in question, and where people breed "like animals".

It's not saying that the offspring of a gentile is like a beast in terms of lacking human rights and dignity.

BTW, how come you didn't cite any of your quotes?


I didn't see the need to cite them, are they in the Torah or not?

Also, I had thought you were Christian, are you Jewish as well?


In a couple cases you've quoted something not in the Talmud but attributed to the Talmud by antisemitic memes propagated by Neo-Nazis. So where did you get your quotes?


Some book by Henry Ford. On Google where do you think?


So you're quoting a known antisemite who was feted by Adolf Hitler?
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Quo Vadis?
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 2:12p, 3/13/25
Sapper Redux said:
Quo Vadis? said:
Sapper Redux said:
Quo Vadis? said:
BonfireNerd04 said:
Quote:
"A gentile who studies Torah is liable for death"

Sanhedrin 59a

The prohibition refers to in-depth study of Jewish law that is specific to Jews. A non-Jew following not required of them (such as Shabbat observance) is seen as improper (unless they're in the process of converting to Judaism or otherwise have a good reason for it).

Note that the very same passage says that a gentile who studies the Seven Laws of Noah "is considered like a High Priest".

And also that there is not a single recorded historical instance of a Jewish court actually killing a non-Jew for studying the wrong parts of the Torah. Jews generally treats the death penalty like the state of California does: Something that a lot of people theoretically deserve, but hardly anybody actually gets. The modern State of Israel (albeit a secular state and not a theocracy) has only put two criminals to death in its entire history.

Relevant Q&A on judaism.stackexchange.com.

Quote:
"If the ox of a Jew gores the ox of a canaanite there is no liability, but if an ox of a canaanite gores the ox of a Jew, he pays full damages"
Bava Kamma 37b

This is another one of those rules that applies when Jews and non-Jews have separate legal systems.

Quote:
"The offspring of a gentile is like that of a beast"
Yevamot 98a. At least, that's the closest thing I could find. "The offspring of a male gentile is considered no more related to him than the offspring of donkeys and horses."

The context is a discussion of the laws regarding inheritance, incest, intermarriage, paternity, and other family law stuff. A practical application is if a non-Jewish man has children and later converts to Judaism. In Jewish law, his non-Jewish children are not automatically considered his heirs.

And let's face it, there are cultures existing today where paternity is often in question, and where people breed "like animals".

It's not saying that the offspring of a gentile is like a beast in terms of lacking human rights and dignity.

BTW, how come you didn't cite any of your quotes?


I didn't see the need to cite them, are they in the Torah or not?

Also, I had thought you were Christian, are you Jewish as well?


In a couple cases you've quoted something not in the Talmud but attributed to the Talmud by antisemitic memes propagated by Neo-Nazis. So where did you get your quotes?


Some book by Henry Ford. On Google where do you think?


So you're quoting a known antisemite who was feted by Adolf Hitler?


Good lord the sarcasm went screaming over your peanut shaped head
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Quo Vadis? • 2:27p, 3/13/25
Quo Vadis? said:
Sapper Redux said:
Quo Vadis? said:
Sapper Redux said:
Quo Vadis? said:
BonfireNerd04 said:
Quote:
"A gentile who studies Torah is liable for death"

Sanhedrin 59a

The prohibition refers to in-depth study of Jewish law that is specific to Jews. A non-Jew following not required of them (such as Shabbat observance) is seen as improper (unless they're in the process of converting to Judaism or otherwise have a good reason for it).

Note that the very same passage says that a gentile who studies the Seven Laws of Noah "is considered like a High Priest".

And also that there is not a single recorded historical instance of a Jewish court actually killing a non-Jew for studying the wrong parts of the Torah. Jews generally treats the death penalty like the state of California does: Something that a lot of people theoretically deserve, but hardly anybody actually gets. The modern State of Israel (albeit a secular state and not a theocracy) has only put two criminals to death in its entire history.

Relevant Q&A on judaism.stackexchange.com.

Quote:
"If the ox of a Jew gores the ox of a canaanite there is no liability, but if an ox of a canaanite gores the ox of a Jew, he pays full damages"
Bava Kamma 37b

This is another one of those rules that applies when Jews and non-Jews have separate legal systems.

Quote:
"The offspring of a gentile is like that of a beast"
Yevamot 98a. At least, that's the closest thing I could find. "The offspring of a male gentile is considered no more related to him than the offspring of donkeys and horses."

The context is a discussion of the laws regarding inheritance, incest, intermarriage, paternity, and other family law stuff. A practical application is if a non-Jewish man has children and later converts to Judaism. In Jewish law, his non-Jewish children are not automatically considered his heirs.

And let's face it, there are cultures existing today where paternity is often in question, and where people breed "like animals".

It's not saying that the offspring of a gentile is like a beast in terms of lacking human rights and dignity.

BTW, how come you didn't cite any of your quotes?


I didn't see the need to cite them, are they in the Torah or not?

Also, I had thought you were Christian, are you Jewish as well?


In a couple cases you've quoted something not in the Talmud but attributed to the Talmud by antisemitic memes propagated by Neo-Nazis. So where did you get your quotes?


Some book by Henry Ford. On Google where do you think?


So you're quoting a known antisemite who was feted by Adolf Hitler?


Good lord the sarcasm went screaming over your peanut shaped head


Sorry, the quoting of antisemitic memes makes your claim extremely plausible, GNLS.
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CrackerJackAg
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In reply to jkag89 • 10:42a, 3/16/25
AG
jkag89 said:
Are we not all made in the image of our Creator? What you are attempting to do here is to dehumanize an entire population to justify any reaction. We as people of God are called to be better.


I've never understood this mentality.

God hates some people and loves others.

God called for the extermination, germicide and defeat of entire nations.

This "be better…God loves everyone" take just isn't true.

I'm not calling for any of that, as I'm not God, but let's not pretend the scripture doesn't call for the Jews to claim their land (and presumably fight for and hold) through extremely violent means.

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swimmerbabe11
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In reply to CrackerJackAg • 10:53a, 3/16/25
see, you are in need of a Calvinist tag
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Macarthur
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In reply to CrackerJackAg • 10:58a, 3/16/25
CrackerJackAg said:
jkag89 said:
Are we not all made in the image of our Creator? What you are attempting to do here is to dehumanize an entire population to justify any reaction. We as people of God are called to be better.


I've never understood this mentality.

God hates some people and loves others.

God called for the extermination, germicide and defeat of entire nations.

This "be better…God loves everyone" take just isn't true.

I'm not calling for any of that, as I'm not God, but let's not pretend the scripture doesn't call for the Jews to claim their land (and presumably fight for and hold) through extremely violent means.

at least your honest about it.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to CrackerJackAg • 11:43a, 3/16/25
CrackerJackAg said:
jkag89 said:
Are we not all made in the image of our Creator? What you are attempting to do here is to dehumanize an entire population to justify any reaction. We as people of God are called to be better.


I've never understood this mentality.

God hates some people and loves others.

God called for the extermination, germicide and defeat of entire nations.

This "be better…God loves everyone" take just isn't true.

I'm not calling for any of that, as I'm not God, but let's not pretend the scripture doesn't call for the Jews to claim their land (and presumably fight for and hold) through extremely violent means.



There's a passage in the Midrash where God tells the angels to stop rejoicing when the Israelites cross the Reed Sea as he mourns for the destruction of the Egyptians, who are just as much his creation as Moses.
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CrackerJackAg
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 12:29p, 3/16/25
AG
swimmerbabe11 said:
see, you are in need of a Calvinist tag


Absolutely not. Thems fighting words…

Maybe someone would be kind enough to explain to me I am wrong. The Bible and texts say "he hated". I do not necessarily believe that he did not hate them for a reason and potentially one of their own choosing.

I don't think it was pre-determined.
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CrackerJackAg
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In reply to Macarthur • 12:30p, 3/16/25
AG
Macarthur said:
CrackerJackAg said:
jkag89 said:
Are we not all made in the image of our Creator? What you are attempting to do here is to dehumanize an entire population to justify any reaction. We as people of God are called to be better.


I've never understood this mentality.

God hates some people and loves others.

God called for the extermination, germicide and defeat of entire nations.

This "be better…God loves everyone" take just isn't true.

I'm not calling for any of that, as I'm not God, but let's not pretend the scripture doesn't call for the Jews to claim their land (and presumably fight for and hold) through extremely violent means.

at least your honest about it.


I also don't believe that the Old Testament covenant and mandate applies to Isreal today. So there…

I am more anti barbarism than pro Jewish.
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Zobel
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In reply to CrackerJackAg • 7:47p, 3/16/25
AG
First, God loves every single person more than you can possibly imagine.

That is not at odds with His justice; His justice is merciful and His mercy is just. The conclusion to "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy" is that He has shown mercy to everyone, because not a single person deserved it.

We should take very seriously St Paul's words that he was the chief of sinners...and apply that to ourselves. If He can love me, the chief of sinners, on what grounds can I say He hates someone else?

God loves everyone.

Second - the scriptures say nothing about the Jews claiming their land. The Jews are not Israel. And the scriptures say that all of the promises about the land were fulfilled:

"Thus the Lord gave to Israel all the land that he swore to give to their fathers. And they took possession of it, and they settled there. And the Lord gave them rest on every side just as he had sworn to their fathers. Not one of all their enemies had withstood them, for the Lord had given all their enemies into their hands. Not one word of all the good promises that the Lord had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass."

"You are the Lord, the God who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and gave him the name Abraham. You found his heart faithful before you, and made with him the covenant to give to his offspring the land of the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Amorite, the Perizzite, the Jebusite, and the Girga****e. And you have kept your promise, for you are righteous."

"So he brought his people out with joy,
his chosen ones with singing.
And he gave them the lands of the nations,
and they took possession of the fruit of the peoples' toil,
that they might keep his statutes
and observe his laws."




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ramblin_ag02
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In reply to CrackerJackAg • 9:22a, 3/17/25
AG
CrackerJackAg said:
jkag89 said:
Are we not all made in the image of our Creator? What you are attempting to do here is to dehumanize an entire population to justify any reaction. We as people of God are called to be better.


I've never understood this mentality.

God hates some people and loves others.

God called for the extermination, germicide and defeat of entire nations.

This "be better…God loves everyone" take just isn't true.

I'm not calling for any of that, as I'm not God, but let's not pretend the scripture doesn't call for the Jews to claim their land (and presumably fight for and hold) through extremely violent means.

I don't think I could come up with more anti-Christian statements if I tried
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traxter
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5:53p, 3/20/25
No hostages in the West Bank




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CrackerJackAg
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 10:35a, 3/21/25
AG
ramblin_ag02 said:
CrackerJackAg said:
jkag89 said:
Are we not all made in the image of our Creator? What you are attempting to do here is to dehumanize an entire population to justify any reaction. We as people of God are called to be better.


I've never understood this mentality.

God hates some people and loves others.

God called for the extermination, germicide and defeat of entire nations.

This "be better…God loves everyone" take just isn't true.

I'm not calling for any of that, as I'm not God, but let's not pretend the scripture doesn't call for the Jews to claim their land (and presumably fight for and hold) through extremely violent means.

I don't think I could come up with more anti-Christian statements if I tried


You are correct that I did not properly word my statement

I should have said that scripture suggest that God hates sin and unrighteousness, but loves sinners and desires their repentance and salvation.

Then I run into this:

In my effort to take a survey on the character of Esau, I seem to be running into more difficulties in unveiling why the All-Loving God had to declare hatred for Esau right from the womb when he had done no evil.

10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or badin order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of thim who calls 12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (Romans 9:10-13 ESV)
Malachi used some extremely violent words to aggravate the "hate" in saying:

2 "I have loved you," says the Lord. But you say, "How have you loved us?" "Is not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the Lord. "Yet I have loved Jacob 3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert." 4 If Edom says, "We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins," the Lord of hosts says, "They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called 'the wicked country,' and 'the people with whom the Lord is angry forever.'" (Malachi 1:2-4 ESV).
It seems strange to hear Malachi using extremely violent words to express this hate by widespread destruction of Esau in not expecting them to ever stand as a nation. The Lord does not even regard their capacity to rebuild as wishful thinking, but instead works out his hatred for Edom by promising to destroy whatever progress they make.

Why was the Lord so angry with Esau and tagged Edom "the people with whom the Lord is angry forever?"
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Zobel
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In reply to CrackerJackAg • 11:15a, 3/21/25
AG
Because of what the Edomites did - they betrayed Judah and participated in the Babylonian conquest (described in Obadiah).

St Paul is very consistent and frequent in talking about how the Promises flow through the heir. The heir inherits everything and then shares with his brothers. So Isaac is the son of the promise and not Ishmael, Jacob and not Esau...all the way down to David (Judah) and not Saul (Benjamin) or through Joseph (Ephraim) even though Ephraim was clearly blessed and the largest tribe etc. In the end the promises flow to the sole heir, who is Christ.

The way others participate in those blessings is by connection to the heir through faithfulness. Being unfaithful gets you cut off. So, Israel (Ephraim) is cut off from Judah, Edom is cut off from Judah, and then I think we could say on some level the Judaeans get cut off from Christ.

Since Christ is the sole heir, the unique seed, He inherits everything -- ALL the promises to Abraham. The land was the sign of the promise, and was fulfilled in the time of Joshua. The ultimate fulfilment of that promise is the life of the age to come. By being joined to Him, we are co-heirs to the promise because we become His brethren

For example:
"it is not the children of the flesh who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring"
"if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."
"if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ--if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him"
"the mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are fellow heirs, fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus."


This is to say, being born -- your blood -- is not what makes you an heir of the promises of Abraham, but faithfulness. "The promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world was not given through the law, but through the righteousness that comes by faith."

The flipside as I said above is that if the promise comes through faith, being disinherited then comes through faithlessness, and not just faithlessness in general but faithlessness to the heir. Ultimately that means to Christ, who is the sole heir, "the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, 'And to offsprings,' referring to many, but referring to one, 'And to your offspring,' who is Christ."


So all that being said. Esau was reconciled to Jacob, and so he did inherit a portion of the promises. He became a nation, Edom. When Moses flees Egypt he goes to Midian (which are from Esau) and finds people worshipping God. The Israelites come out of Egypt God tells them the Edomites are their brethren, and they can't take any of their land because they are their brothers.

The Edomites were loved and inherited for Esau's sake - who is consistently shown in Genesis to be arguably a better person than Jacob! - but hated for their sin and faithlessness to God's people Israel. The passage in Malachi explicitly is about Edom and Israel the nations, not Jacob and Esau the people, therefore to assume St Paul is talking about God hating Esau while quoting Malachi suggests he is misusing scripture - a bad hermeneutic approach.
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ramblin_ag02
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In reply to CrackerJackAg • 11:19a, 3/21/25
AG
Quote:
Why was the Lord so angry with Esau and tagged Edom "the people with whom the Lord is angry forever?"
The most common interpretation is that this is referring the nation of Edom following their betrayal of the nation of Israel. It is common in the Bible to refer to entire nations by the names of their patriarchs. "Israel" for example or "Judah" could refer to a patriarch or the nation they founded. Context usually makes this easy to determine, but not always. Prophecy, visions, and psalms make telling the difference difficult.

The nation of Edom was considered a brother nation to Israel until the Babylonian invasion. They had a pact to work together to fight the Babylonians, but the Edomites reneged on that. Not only did they refuse to help the Israelites defend themselves, but they also joined with the Babylonians and invaded Israel at the same time. God had empowered the Babylonians to punish Israel, but clearly He didn't have the same plans for the Edomites. Therefore, God expressed his hatred for their nation.

As an aside, it is common in Jewish parlance to refer to Christians as Edomites, a brother nation with a common heritage that should be allies. However, there is mistrust and hostility due to unprovoked violence by the other nation
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 5:50p, 3/21/25
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swimmerbabe11 said:
I always wish that just for this board we had tags where we labeled our denom so I could stop trying to remember everyone's beliefs. like Derms could say "loves everybody, hates calvinism" and mine could be "Lutheran (LCMS never ELCA) etc. I hate being like "did I forget that this guy is Jewish?" or "oh hey, he became Catholic and I didn't notice"
Love it. Country went to hell (not ECT of course) when we lost nicknames.

And our former baseball coach is a curse.

I know I am not Jesus and our former coach is not Judas but he came out to my house, I helped him find land for his sweet young thing and her horses, texted back and forth regularly, etc.

And it was all lies.
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