Your characterization somewhat fits his summary, narrowly in that some are offered an opportunity.

I'd encourage everyone to listen to that podcast embedded above.

He's a serious researcher, since the 70s.

Redstone said:

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Your characterization somewhat fits his summary, narrowly in that some are offered an opportunity.

I'd encourage everyone to listen to that podcast embedded above.

He's a serious researcher, since the 70s.

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I have read his book. He is excellent. He believes God allows man through His free will to reject God and thus choose hell.

I can agree with that. Scripture is clear that God wants to save everybody.

The ultimate question is cries God allow our free will to trump His desire?

Even if we were to take the "Bible-based" logician's method of argument, instead of the Catholic / Orthodox view of a profound mystery as we appeal to God's mercy -

The answer to your question could still be yes, because the creator of sovereignty, even Sovereignty Itself, the Reason and Order of all creation, cannot be caught in contradiction by the very nature of His being (or, Being).

He is far "outside" of all such considerations.

Redstone said:

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Even if we were to take the "Bible-based" logician's method of argument, instead of the Catholic / Orthodox view of a profound mystery as we appeal to God's mercy -

The answer to your question could still be yes, because the creator of sovereignty, even Sovereignty Itself, the Reason and Order of all creation, cannot be caught in contradiction by the very nature of His being (or, Being).

He is far "outside" of all such considerations.

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Agree. And I think you enjoy the book in my op.

Serotonin said:

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Quote:

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The ultimate question is cries God allow our free will to trump His desire?

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The answer is yes.

If I desire to marry someone but she doesn't want to marry me, is it right to force her to marry me against her will? Is that a true relationship / true love?

For love to be real it has to be freely given and freely received.

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And I can agree with that. I can not agree with God pre ordaining people He created to hell.

While Paul rarely wrote in terms of "Heaven" or "Hell", he did certainly write in terms of "Life" vs. "Death".

Romans 6:23 is the obvious verse regarding this point. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Eternal life is a gift from God through faith in Jesus.

How can there a way to the too eternal life with the Father apart from Jesus? Can you point to a biblical reference of a purifying fire for the unrepentant sinner and then ultimately being united with God in eternal life?

John 14:6: Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Serotonin said:

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Quote:

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The ultimate question is cries God allow our free will to trump His desire

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For love to be real it has to be freely given and freely received.

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I would be careful to define love by your flawed, human faculties. We are not able to fully capture what love truly means to the infinitely holy God.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Serotonin said:

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Quote:

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The ultimate question is cries God allow our free will to trump His desire

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For love to be real it has to be freely given and freely received.

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I would be careful to define love by your flawed, human faculties. We are not able to fully capture what love truly means to the infinitely holy God.

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And I would add we need to be careful how mere men describe God's wrath.

Pignorant said:

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While Paul rarely wrote in terms of "Heaven" or "Hell", he did certainly write in terms of "Life" vs. "Death".

Romans 6:23 is the obvious verse regarding this point. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Eternal life is a gift from God through faith in Jesus.

How can there a way to the too eternal life with the Father apart from Jesus? Can you point to a biblical reference of a purifying fire for the unrepentant sinner and then ultimately being united with God in eternal life?

John 14:6: Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

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I agree with everything you posted.

Did Jesus say He was the way, truth, and life only for the elect? Or any particular group? What if that statement is inclusive rather than exclusive?

Do you agree Scripture clearly states that Godmdesires to save all men?

And do you believe, like I do, that God is sovereign?

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Serotonin said:

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Quote:

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The ultimate question is cries God allow our free will to trump His desire

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For love to be real it has to be freely given and freely received.

---

I would be careful to define love by your flawed, human faculties. We are not able to fully capture what love truly means to the infinitely holy God.

---

And I would add we need to be careful how mere men describe God's wrath.

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Or fire. Or eternal. Or punishment in Matthew 25 46.

I believe what Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 2:3-4: For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God desiring that all men be saved is not the same as God saving all men. When you reject the truth about Christ then you eliminate any path to be in everlasting life with the Father.

Where is there a verse that points toward reconciliation with the Father even if you reject the Son?

Pignorant said:

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I believe what Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 2:3-4: For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God desiring that all men be saved is not the same as God saving all men. When you reject the truth about Christ then you eliminate any path to be in everlasting life with the Father.

Where is there a verse that points toward reconciliation with the Father even if you reject the Son?

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Do you believe everyone gets a chance to reject or accept Jesus?

Derm, I have a genuine question. I apologize if it has already been asked. I know you're big on history and the thoughts of the Church Fathers. What do you generally make of these quotes that seem to affirm a large amount of the Fathers believe in eternal hell, and not annihilationism?

"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]). -St. Justin Martyr

"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21). -St. Justin Martyr

"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]). -Bishop of Smyrna

"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]). -St. Ireneaus


"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]). -Tertullian

"...The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]). -St. Cyprian

"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed..." (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]). -St. Cyril of Jerusalem

Apologies in advance for the large volume here, just wanted to give multiple different Fathers' opinions.

dermdoc said:

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Pignorant said:

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I believe what Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 2:3-4: For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God desiring that all men be saved is not the same as God saving all men. When you reject the truth about Christ then you eliminate any path to be in everlasting life with the Father.

Where is there a verse that points toward reconciliation with the Father even if you reject the Son?

---

Do you believe everyone gets a chance to reject or accept Jesus?

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I'm thinking everyone has a chance…imho…

I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh [John 6:51].

If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority [John 7:17].

Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death [John 8:51].

88Warrior said:

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dermdoc said:

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Pignorant said:

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I believe what Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 2:3-4: For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God desiring that all men be saved is not the same as God saving all men. When you reject the truth about Christ then you eliminate any path to be in everlasting life with the Father.

Where is there a verse that points toward reconciliation with the Father even if you reject the Son?

---

Do you believe everyone gets a chance to reject or accept Jesus?

---

I'm thinking everyone has a chance…imho…

I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh [John 6:51].

If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority [John 7:17].

Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death [John 8:51].

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Amen.

TeddyAg0422 said:

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Derm, I have a genuine question. I apologize if it has already been asked. I know you're big on history and the thoughts of the Church Fathers. What do you generally make of these quotes that seem to affirm a large amount of the Fathers believe in eternal hell, and not annihilationism?

"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]). -St. Justin Martyr

"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21). -St. Justin Martyr

"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]). -Bishop of Smyrna

"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]). -St. Ireneaus


"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]). -Tertullian

"...The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]). -St. Cyprian

"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed..." (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]). -St. Cyril of Jerusalem

Apologies in advance for the large volume here, just wanted to give multiple different Fathers' opinions.

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With all due respect, I can post quotes from fathers who believed in ultimate reconciliation and annihilationism. So to me, that is pointless.

I can tell you that of the six early schools only one endorsed ECT hell.

ECT hell and the whole judicial vs ontological salvation was basically a product of Augustine. Sure there other church fathers who supported ECT hell but there was always supporters of both annihilationism and universal reconciliation.

And even Augustine said that there were many universal reconciliation supporters and did not condemn them.

I am not trying to make anyone agree with me. All I am doing is stating my beliefs after pretty extensive studies
I will say I do not think anyone's view on hell affects their salvation. If it does than some saints are in trouble.

And since I have believed this I have incredible peace and no fear. Bibles in my waiting room, Max Lucado tracts, pray with 10-20 patients daily, and share my testimony freely. Never did that when I was an ECT believer )if I ever really was).

And like I said, you do not have to agree with me.

Fair enough. Good deal

There were and will be again strong efforts for union within the liturgical, Sacramental, and Apostolic (Catholic / Orthodox) Churches. There including plans to head to Nicea area again in modern Turkey.

This is a dream, but my point is that someone interested in this topic should search for overlap of views. They exist. As does a lot of argument and disagreement.

So my point is twofold: the Bible, which is not the "word of God," because Logos Incarnate is, does not have "clarity" on this matter. Humility should reign on the topic alongside a lot of prayer and penance.

Second, it is proper to consider the subjective experiences of those Christians who seriously turned their life around after an NDE. I believe many were commanded to relay their experiences, which include a LOT of very detailed torment.

Specific recommendation:
Brian Melvin
Search:
lizard breath hell nde

I do not put any weight on a near death experience. The scriptures are enough and the source of truth. I do not think hell is refining - I think it is defining. I think the scriptures teach of a literal place of separation of the unbelievers from the triune God. I think believers are called to spread the good news until He returns. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways are higher than ours.

Agilaw said:

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I do not put any weight on a near death experience. The scriptures are enough and the source of truth. I do not think hell is refining - I think it is defining. I think the scriptures teach of a literal place of separation of the unbelievers from the triune God. I think believers are called to spread the good news until He returns. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways are higher than ours.

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Do you believe God gives every person a chance to accept or reject Jesus as Savior?

And the Good News is we are not going to whatever hell is. Praise the Lord!

Worth the read from the book

There are 2 criticisms of Western Apostolic Christianity during this time that stuck with me:

Bentley Hart's view of the Vulgate in his NT translation, and Protestant Tim Alberino correctly decrying Enoch - meaning those BC written portions verified by the Dead Sea Scrolls - being excluded from the canon.

Those first 4 centuries of debate were pretty furious, including St. Peter v. St Paul (who probably kicked some disciples off his trips!)

Redstone said:

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There are 2 criticisms of Western Apostolic Christianity during this time that stuck with me:

Bentley Hart's view of the Vulgate in his NT translation, and Protestant Tim Alberino correctly decrying Enoch - meaning those BC written portions verified by the Dead Sea Scrolls - being excluded from the canon.

Those first 4 centuries of debate were pretty furious, including St. Peter v. St Paul (who probably kicked some disciples off his trips!)

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David Bentley Hart is a genius. And his NT may be the most accurate translation ever written. He knows his Greek. I wish Augustine had known his Greek better. We would be at a totally different place with Western theology in my opinion.

Derm - you can see from my previous posts that I'm not reformed/Calvinist. Far from it. I believe Jesus died for all - not just the elect. I believe 1st Timothy - God desires that all people be saved. I also believe "whosoever will". I believe the great commission is what believers should be about.

Agilaw said:

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Derm - you can see from my previous posts that I'm not reformed/Calvinist. Far from it. I believe Jesus died for all - not just the elect. I believe 1st Timothy - God desires that all people be saved. I also believe "whosoever will". I believe the great commission is what believers should be about.

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Sorry I did not know for sure. Good to know.

Agilaw said:

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Derm - you can see from my previous posts that I'm not reformed/Calvinist. Far from it. I believe Jesus died for all - not just the elect. I believe 1st Timothy - God desires that all people be saved. I also believe "whosoever will". I believe the great commission is what believers should be about.

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Scripture clearly teaches election. The question is on what basis.

I'm working my way through "Thirty Steps to Heaven: The Ladder of Divine Ascent for All Walks of Life" and came to step 6 which covers the remembrance of death, and there's a line I thought you'd appreciate.

Quote:

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If we love God--if our life has been lived for Him--then God is our joy. If we do not want God, then His eternal presence and loving embrace are hell.

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Election to what?

Its Texas Aggies, dammit said:

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Agilaw said:

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Derm - you can see from my previous posts that I'm not reformed/Calvinist. Far from it. I believe Jesus died for all - not just the elect. I believe 1st Timothy - God desires that all people be saved. I also believe "whosoever will". I believe the great commission is what believers should be about.

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Scripture clearly teaches election. The question is on what basis.

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It also teaches God desires all to be saved.

PacifistAg said:

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I'm working my way through "Thirty Steps to Heaven: The Ladder of Divine Ascent for All Walks of Life" and came to step 6 which covers the remembrance of death, and there's a live I thought you'd appreciate.

Quote:

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If we love God--if our life has been lived for Him--then God is our joy. If we do not want God, then His eternal presence and loving embrace are hell.

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Love that. Thank you.

Felt like this new video from Gavin Ortlund is relevant to this thread.

Thanks for that. I disagree with him, especially on his claims of what the early church believed, but he was reasonable and smart. He is Reformed so he has his biases also.

Would love to see he and David Bentley Hart debate.

Thanks again.