10andBOUNCE said:

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I would say our elder group fits the description given in Titus 1. So I am in a legitimate church?

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I'm going take a wild guess that your elders were not installed and ordained by a bishop, so they wouldn't quite match the description here. Paul installs and ordains Titus. By ordination, he received the power and authority to pick elders (aka presbyters or priests). Apostle to apostolic successor (Bishop Titus) to the elder/priest to be installed in all towns in order to make sure that correct doctrine is taught. Bishop Titus ordained other bishops, who ordained bishops and on and on we go until we hit 2025.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Zobel said:

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Can you provide where St Paul says that the scriptures are exhaustive or a manual for church ecclesiastical structure?

They weren't written in, delivered into, or passed down in a vacuum.

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I think we both know I am not going to be able to provide anything to you. These discussions have happened already.

So can we at least agree the scripture does not outline much of anything regarding the idea of "apostolic succession?" I think we all see and affirm the passages presented here are good and true, but they hardly give much (if any) credence to a church being invalid if the bishop/presbyter/elder/pastor was not selected how the RCC and EO church interprets apostolic succession.

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If you're going to revolutionize church ecclesiology in a way that changes everything about the way it has been understood for the entire history of it by all Christians before then, then you have the burden of proof that all those guys were wrong.

no, i don't agree with that.

we see the idea of succession in the Levitical priesthood. the mechanism of succession is different (hereditary limitation) but the reasons for succession are scriptural (for example, Deuteronomy 33:10; Malachi 2:7) and the fact that specific people are consecrated and ordained is scriptural. the office is passed down, including the vestments, which serve as both a symbol of office and a kind of anonymizing of the high priest for continuity. this principle is preserved in the NT, but the mechanism of succession is no longer hereditary, because the priesthood is not of the levitical order, but of Christ (who was not a levite). the pattern that continues is that there is ordination (and the principles in the form of ordination of priests in the Torah are maintained in the Orthodox Church) for a continuous succession of priests to maintain worship, teaching, and mediation to preserve order.

this is the presumption the scriptures are written into. where the NT is silent, the status quo of the Torah, the way of life given by Jesus Christ to his faithful people, is maintained. the right question is not "is there anything against succession" but instead "did the apostles negate or change succession"?

even so - there IS evidence in the NT for apostolic succession. The Apostles speak of filling the episcope, the bishopric of Judas with another. The Lord gives the authority of the priesthood - teaching, binding and loosing, forgiveness of sins - to the apostles. This is not a personal authority given to them as individuals, but to them as officiants within the church. they in turn extend this as office and exercise this authority, and they pass on these responsibilities or share them - for example by ordaining deacons (we will turn this responsibility over to them).

St Paul instructs St Timothy and St Titus to appoint bishops explicitly to guard the deposit of faith - which as we have seen is the role of the priesthood. 2 Tim 2:2 points to succession again, that teachers should be taught who in turn can teach others, the chain of teaching authority.

the role of elders mirrors the structure of the levitical duties - teaching, governing, shepherding, all tasks of priests in the OT. the appointment of elders to set things in order (Titus 1:5) shows this ongoing action and structure.

just as the levites taught and offered sacrifices and were tied to an altar, priests teach the gospel and offer the eucharist and are tied to an altar. just as the levitical office passes beyond death (Heb 7:23) the priestly office continues and passes down.

everything is here, even assuming a sola scripture approach: offices (episkope), ordination / consecration through laying on of hands, and instructions to appoint successors, along with the emphasis on guarding sound doctrine combined with the confession that teaching authority and governing authority is not a universal gift to all christians.

Zobel said:

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no, i don't agree with that.

we see the idea of succession in the Levitical priesthood. the mechanism of succession is different (hereditary limitation) but the reasons for succession are scriptural (for example, Deuteronomy 33:10; Malachi 2:7) and the fact that specific people are consecrated and ordained is scriptural. the office is passed down, including the vestments, which serve as both a symbol of office and a kind of anonymizing of the high priest for continuity. this principle is preserved in the NT, but the mechanism of succession is no longer hereditary, because the priesthood is not of the levitical order, but of Christ (who was not a levite). the pattern that continues is that there is ordination (and the principles in the form of ordination of priests in the Torah are maintained in the Orthodox Church) for a continuous succession of priests to maintain worship, teaching, and mediation to preserve order.

this is the presumption the scriptures are written into. where the NT is silent, the status quo of the Torah, the way of life given by Jesus Christ to his faithful people, is maintained. the right question is not "is there anything against succession" but instead "did the apostles negate or change succession"?

even so - there IS evidence in the NT for apostolic succession. The Apostles speak of filling the episcope, the bishopric of Judas with another. The Lord gives the authority of the priesthood - teaching, binding and loosing, forgiveness of sins - to the apostles. This is not a personal authority given to them as individuals, but to them as officiants within the church. they in turn extend this as office and exercise this authority, and they pass on these responsibilities or share them - for example by ordaining deacons (we will turn this responsibility over to them).

St Paul instructs St Timothy and St Titus to appoint bishops explicitly to guard the deposit of faith - which as we have seen is the role of the priesthood. 2 Tim 2:2 points to succession again, that teachers should be taught who in turn can teach others, the chain of teaching authority.

the role of elders mirrors the structure of the levitical duties - teaching, governing, shepherding, all tasks of priests in the OT. the appointment of elders to set things in order (Titus 1:5) shows this ongoing action and structure.

just as the levites taught and offered sacrifices and were tied to an altar, priests teach the gospel and offer the eucharist and are tied to an altar. just as the levitical office passes beyond death (Heb 7:23) the priestly office continues and passes down.

everything is here, even assuming a sola scripture approach: offices (episkope), ordination / consecration through laying on of hands, and instructions to appoint successors, along with the emphasis on guarding sound doctrine combined with the confession that teaching authority and governing authority is not a universal gift to all christians.

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Zobel, thanks for sharing this. Very informative.

The Catholic Church celebrated Pentecost last Sunday. I learned something in connection with Pentecost as it relates to the priesthood that I had never heard of before. If this is old news for others, please forgive my ignorance, but at the risk of this being a "duh!" moment, I thought this was fascinating and supports the priesthood description Zobel describes above.

As Zobel points out, the priesthood was originally a familial office. It was the role of the patriarch of a family and the first born son to act as a priest and offer sacrifice. This remained until the day that Moses came down from Mt. Sinai with the tablets in his hands and found the Israelites, helped in significant part by Aaron (his older brother) getting jiggy with the golden calf and committing idolatry. After this incident as described in Exodus 32, Moses called for those who were loyal to the Lord to come to him. The sons of Levi - the Levites - including Aaron, responded to his call. Moses then instructed them to go through the camp and execute judgment on the idolaters, which they did, as a means of purifying the community. This purification resulted in the exeution of approximately 3,000 persons (Exodus 32: 27-28). KEEP THIS IN MIND.

As a result of their allegiance, the Levites were set apart for priestly service. God designated them for priestly duties, and they were given special roles in the worship and religious practices of Israel. Aaron became the first High Priest and his descendants continued to serve in the priesthood.

Then at Pentecost what happens? The newly established Church and its leaders (the Apostles who were newly ordained priests) baptized 3,000 new converts to the faith.

So we have the Ten Commandments given, the establishment of the Levitical priesthood, the execution of 3,000 idolaters because of the golden calf incident, Jesus Christ a High Priest in the order of Malchizedek pronouncing the fulfillment of the Law through the pronouncement of the two greatest commandments and the Sermon on the Mount (the Beatitudes), the establishment of the new covenant priesthood by Christ at the Last Supper and by his sacrifice on the cross, and then we have those new "priests" baptising 3,000 at Pentecost. These related events illustrate a journey from law to grace, from sin to redemption, and from death to life, facilitated by the new priesthood.

1. Moses receives the Ten Commandments.

2. Levitical Priesthood (Exodus 32 onwards): After the golden calf incident, the sons of Levi demonstrated their loyalty to God, and as a result, the tribe of Levi was set apart to serve as priests. This priesthood was mediatorial, serving the role of offering sacrifices and interceding on behalf of the people according to the Mosaic Law.

3. Execution of 3,000 (Exodus 32:28): This tragic event highlights the consequences of idolatry and disobedience to God's law shortly after it was given. The physical death of 3,000 emphasized the gravity of sin and the need for holiness and fidelity to God.

4. Jesus fulfills the Law and declares the two greatest commandments and gives the world a new "code" to follow through the Sermon on the Mount.

5. New Covenant Priesthood: The new covenant established by Jesus introduced a universal priesthood of believers, where all baptized Christians share in Christ's priesthood by offering spiritual sacrifices and living a life of holiness (1 Peter 2:9). Additionally, the ordained ministerial priesthood continues the apostolic mission, administering the sacraments, baptism in the case of Pentecost, but especially the Eucharist, as a means of grace and unity.

6. Baptism of 3,000 at Pentecost (Acts 2:41): The outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost inaugurated the new covenant, displays the power of the new priesthood as they oversaw and instructed the conversion and baptism of 3,000 people, signifying the birth of the Church.

I just thought this was a fascinating perspective on Pentecost and its relationship to the establishment of the Levitical priesthood and the Church. Apologies in advance if this is a derail of an otherwise informative thread.