Okay. I'm not going to argue.

For decisions. Like to buy or not to buy a house. Something along those lines.

i don't know about that, never really heard anything. sorry!

No apologies necessary

i was hesitating whether or not to offer an opinion, but i guess i will as long as you promise that you take it as a complete bit of speculation from a random orthodox person and not like... any kind of official thing or whatever. i mean, you should probably put all of my posts in that category anyway, though i feel pretty comfortable quoting the fathers on things that i have received actual instruction / teaching on. this one is not like that, so pure speculation.

i would say if you really don't know what to do, and there's no "bad" decision - like you're deciding between two perfectly reasonable things, you've prayed about it, don't have any real guidance... i would say that based on the principles of the scriptures, there is nothing wrong with casting lots to choose.

i think the risk would be in treating it as if it were magic or practicing divination. in my mind, it is more about your mindset when doing it than the thing itself. if you're saying - i'm leaving this up to God and / or chance, "alea iacta est" then i don't see that as a problem with a tiebreaker.

if you're saying, this is the means through which i am going to discern the will of God, that's a bit more risky.

I appreciate it, very reasonable answer. To explore this a bit further why would it being sued to discern God's will? Riley because it would require a tremendous amount of faith and commitment or Risky because it borders some potential grey areas of morality?

In the case of Acts would that be described as discerning Gods will?

im sorry what i wrote wasn't very clear. when i said the thing thats risky is using it as a mean to discerns God's will, the problem is treating it as magic, ie., you do x and God does y. nothing we do constrains God to act or makes Him perform. so there's no obligation on God's part that when we throw the dice, what comes up is His will.

the other piece is.. the question kind of implies that there is a right / wrong in the outcome. or that God has a particular preference... maybe? maybe not? maybe you making the decision is the right thing, y'know? freedom in Christ is a thing.

That makes alot of sense. How would you describe what the apostles did to replace Judas? And if that would be repeatable in some sense?

i think they were doing their best to follow the torah, and i'm not saying they did anything wrong. but there's at least an implication that God had already selected an apostle to replace Judas -- St Paul. this is reflected in our iconography, which when it shows the 12, shows St Paul and not St Matthias at the ascension, at pentecost, etc even anachronistically. not to take anything away from St Matthias, he is still a saint and we still celebrate his apostleship.

the casting of lots is given to the israelites with the ummim and thummim as to me a kind of condescension by God to the israelites to prevent them from practicing divination. so even at its most basic, it is a last resort.

Yukon Cornelius said:

---

For decisions. Like to buy or not to buy a house. Something along those lines.

---

Talked to a wiser, more established orthodox friend about this question last night. We, as two rando orthodox guys, not of any authority within the church just view casting lots with an, 'shoulder shrug' view.

We see in the scriptures holy men using it to divine the word of God. Sparingly and for big decisions. They were also generally okay about what the answer would be on the other side. No recasting. These priests and kings were content that God did work through these lots. In these cases we generally see that A) These are very pious intercessors and that lots is just one of many ways they talked to God. So they didn't even need the lots. B) They wanted an answer now, and sometimes God wasn't going to answer now. So be prepared to accept the answer of lots and also accept that you might not get your way and that you might not actually be divining God's will here, especially as laity. So its about everything surrounding the lots (like your heart) not the lots themselves here.

If you could divine God's will every time you cast lots, you'd spam it and become a slave to it. No ask would be too small - its Gods will here! But we don't believe that is how God has ordered us. We actually have true freedom in Christ. That's the whole point, you're freed from sins! Go out, create in God's image. Raise kids in God's image. Go find work in God's image. The world is full of risk and reward, go find your own lot in life. Not every decision point is a choice between a right and wrong answer.

I think the value of casting lots in the ancient world is the idea of fairness and binding arbitration. It can be used to settle squabbles.

Don't be using RNGesus as a means for deciding life events. If you're deciding between neutral things, you don't need to use lots here to make a decision that is God pleasing. Use your own reasoning, nothing is perfectly neutral make a decision with the information you have. Change course if need be as your information is updated. If you're deciding between good and bad things, you don't need to use lots here to make a decision that is God pleasing.

Within Christianity you see a big common question about, 'what do I with my life? How can I discern God's will for me?' In orthodoxy, you can be met with frustratingly simple answers here. God's will is theosis of man. Go to liturgy, attend services as much as you can, grow in knowledge of scripture and teachings, participate in church cycles of prayer, fasting, almsgiving, confession, communion, receiving unction, tending to the poor. There is the priest path and the monastic path as well, but you're not required nor shamed if you don't. They are just separate, different callings.

Men are generally given simple rules here. Lead a life worthy of attracting a worthy woman. Lead your family, subdue the earth, be fruitful and multiply, honor your father and mother. Forgive quickly. etc. None of this requires divination.

In my mind that answers 'what God's will is expecting of me' for all my waking hours. Its just a matter of deciding on a job that make all this go. Paul was a tentmaker. I don't think Paul had any desire in growing a tentmaking conglomerate. I'm a mechanical engineer, I just generally have a desire to build things and argue with managers, this is my path. Its not the only one, its not better than any others. It pays the bills and allows me to spend time with family and attend church.

i was thinking a little more about chance / throwing lots and i organized it into a kind of thought map.

imagine where we live as a system, we live inside that system. it has of course causality, and predictable outcomes for known actions, and we interact with the system through intent. the system, though, cannot contain all of reality... sometimes externality imposes itself, sometimes causality seems to break down, chaos happens.

we can think about that as "luck" - things happening with no clear predictable causality. that can have a higher and lower kind of sense. higher being of heaven, lower being of earth or of the passions.

throwing dice or playing games of chance are within that lower aspect. the person surrenders their control to an arbitrary outcome. there's no clear reason or meaning happening and the outcomes aren't really caused by the person and they're not predictable. this is ceding control to the lower, to chaos.

the higher aspect of luck is seeking God's will or being open to heavenly influence. this isn't purely random chance, this is saying the system doesn't contain God, so the person is open to divine influence. it is a purposeful surrender to the higher order, which is contrasted with the lower aspect of surrendering to chaos.

the vector for this interaction has directionality - either the outside imposing in, or the opposite. both of the above are giving over, surrender to the outside, to the higher or the lower. it is basically accepting a lack of control.

the other side is trying to impose control on the outside, to master chaos or subject it to the system. this is a magical approach, using some technique or power to manipulate or subject the outside to causality. it's the opposite of surrender, trying to pull external possibilities inward, to force an outcome or make an outcome's potentiality concrete. divination falls into this.

so we can kind of map out "ok" versus "not ok" aspects to chance here. bishops using lots if they can't come to an agreement for ordination? surrender to God's will - OK. using divination to tell the future? imposing technique on the divine - Not OK.

That makes a lot of sense. So let's say hypothetically I was struggling between making a decision. Option A or option B. Neither have any morality one way or another. But I truly wanted to choose whatever option God would prefer. In that scenerio would it be considered ok in your framework?

why do you think God has a preference on those terms? maybe God's preference is that you choose.

I don't believe God to be indifferent.

that's not what i suggested at all.

this feels a little bit like plato-brain. there are multiple goods. you are not doing yourself harm by selecting between two options. multiplicity does not imply inherent inferiority of one of the goods.

I was answering why I believe God would have a preference. It is because I don't believe Him to be indifferent and thus He would have a preference.

Yukon Cornelius said:

---

I was answering why I believe God would have a preference. It is because I don't believe Him to be indifferent and thus He would have a preference.

---

Word of caution here, God has told us, 'My ways are not your ways, My thoughts are not your thoughts.' I don't think the simple logic provided above is truly peering into the essence of God.

Again, I would take a step back and go, 'What does God will for me? And the answer is the same for all of mankind - theosis. So if you're trying to discern the minutiae of God's will about buying a house versus another, the most fundamental lens would be - what is better for my salvation? And that is where people can get caught up because theosis and salvation is through the left hand of God as well as the right. Deciding on which house to live in might not have any direct influence on how tightly you cling to God. Losing your house probably will.

If you believe the church and the scriptures have revealed a good ordering for our lives with respect to church participation, as well as a strong belief in your obligations to your wife, your kids - I think nearly every decision in your life does not need either A) a demand for God to answer directly and succinctly through lots or B) just pure acceptance of your will to the outcome of chance.

So how would one even begin to discern which is better for one's salvation between two options of saying buying a house? I agree I cannot know the Mind to God. Which is why I wouldn't assume to know which choice is better from His perspective. And hence the discussion of the means to discern His will.

i get that but what i'm saying is that you don't know he has a preference.

for example, and this is obviously lighthearted, i dunno if you have kids or not. but if you do, your kids may agonize over a decision to buy a toy. they have $5 their grandma gave them, or something, and they just agonize.. which one do i buy? dad, which one do you think is better? i've narrowed it down to two, what do you think?

am i indifferent to my child's wellbeing? does the fact that the decision seems critical to them in the moment make it so? do i have a preference? if i don't, if it really is ok either way, does that mean i don't care or about them?

maybe the most important thing for them is not which toy they buy, but learning how to make a decision like that.

maybe either choice is fine. maybe the choice itself is irrelevant to your salvation, but how you make that choice, and how you live your life from there is what matters.

we have actual freedom, and we're not subject to fate, and there are multiple goods. pick which one makes you happy, or that you think you'll like better, and move on.

i guess what i'm struggling with is the implication that because there are two choices, one must be right and the other by implication wrong. that's plato talking.

I'm not saying one option is bad and one is good. I'm trying to determine Gods will. Now it maybe that Gods will is for me to make the decision. However if that's the case 1. It doesn't negate one choice being better than the other and 2. How do you even know if that's Gods ultimate will is for me to make the decision. Maybe He really does care which option I choose. Who is to say He doesn't?

Furthermore the example of a parent is lacking because like the previous poster said we don't know the mind of God. And I don't see how saying He doesn't have a will on one option over the other is correct.

It's a bit reductive and dismissive to say just do whatever you think makes you the happiest IMO.

And one can extrapolate that to any choice. How does one discern the Will of God overs one life? What school to go to, what degree to pursue, what job to take, where to live, how many kids to have etc etc.

And I suppose when people say "God close doors and open doors" they are in a de facto way casting lots.

Or for the hypothetical if buying houses. Putting in an offer and "if it's accepted or not at a certain price point then we know"

And I also suppose one could use casting of lots under the freedom of Christ umbrella. We certainly see the Appstles use it after coming to a two option choice.

"It's a bit reductive and dismissive to say just do whatever you think makes you the happiest IMO."

+++

Did Jesus not come that we may have life and have it abundantly? We indeed have free will and I believe that God wants what we want -if it's good. Wisdom then is a virtue, but we should not be afraid to choose, IMO.

Zobel giving his usual excellent answers. I'm a Catholic convert from being raised a Southern Baptist, and have heard it all…..

I've been considering attending St George Coptic here in Katy, but on the website it says their liturgy is 7:30 am to 10:45 am.

That seems long. Like, I think I could rock it, but I'm not sure if the wife and the boy would. Am I missing something or is that pretty standard?

Our DL typically is right around an hour twenty. 3 hours has to be orthros and liturgy.

yeah i looked at their schedule, unless they're doing something else (never been to a coptic service myself) i would expect that is both orthros / matins and the liturgy. together those are usually around 3 hours. orthros is a nice service, too.

if you want to visit a divine liturgy come to St Joseph on sunday. it's a little way down the road from Katy but not so bad, 15-20 mins on a sunday. i'd be glad to host you and we have excellent coffee afterward.

Awesome thanks man.

I live in Katy and drive past St George and St. Paul to go to St Joseph. Sunday morning its about 20 minutes door to door. Not bad. Would certainly like to see St. Paul go Byzantine rite instead of western, but I've been going to St. Joseph for too long to trade a commute for the community. Great church.

A great story of an early orthodox belief as to the sanctity of the church itself. I'm reminded of why such denominations don't have chairs, let alone pews in the sanctuary.

Quote:

---

A recent archaeological discovery in the ancient city of Olympus, located in Turkey's Antalya province, has uncovered a powerful reminder of early Christian faith a 1,600-year-old church with an entrance inscription that reads: "Only those on the righteous path may enter here."

Buried for over a millennium, the fifth-century Christian church was unearthed by Turkish archaeologists working in the ruins of the ancient Lycian port city. The city of Olympus, which thrived through the Hellenistic, Roman, and Byzantine periods, was abandoned by the 12th century, leaving many of its secrets hidden until now.

Excavator Gokcen Kurtulus Oztaskin, an associate professor at Pamukkale University, told Turkey's Anadolu Agency that the excavation has yielded remarkable finds in recent years, but this one stands out.
"In 2017, 2022 and 2023, we discovered richly decorated mosaic floors at the sites we worked on," Oztaskin explained. "This year, we uncovered and restored the floor mosaics of Church No. 1."

Among those colorful mosaics, one discovery stunned the team an inscription at the church entrance that delivers a sobering message: "Only those on the righteous path may enter here." The message has not been seen for more than a thousand years.

---

If you guys ever want to fall in love with Orthodoxy and read some good books, check out the 4 masterpieces by Dostoevsky: Crime and Punishment, The Brothers Karamazov, Demons and idiot; listed in order from most powerful to least in my opinion.