Forgive me if this is dumb, but I'm just getting started on really exploring the Bible and have a LONG way to go.

But in the Parable of the Great Banquet, Jesus says: "I tell you not one of those who were invited will get a taste of my banquet."

Is he talking about the Jews? There is a common belief among Christians that since the Jews were "God's chosen people", that they are going to Heaven regardless of whether they have accepted Christ (I believe that Dermdoc may believe this). I don't know the answer to that, but the New Testament seems to be pretty clear that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. This verse in Luke (assuming I'm reading it right) seems to confirm that. What are your thoughts?

I think those invited are any who are invited and reject. Any who are faithless. That would include the rulers of the Jews, the rulers of the people of Judaea.

Here is Blessed Theophylact of Ochrid (+1108) commentary:

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The rulers of the Jews were rejected, and not one of them believed in Christ. And they even boasted of their malice, saying, Have any of the rulers believed on Him? [Jn. 7:48] Therefore these students of the law and scribes, as the prophet says, became foolish and fell from grace. But the simple from among the Jews are likened to the halt, the blind, and the maimed. It is the foolish of this world, the lowly, who were called. For the multitude marveled at the words of grace which proceeded from the mouth of Jesus, and they rejoiced in His teaching. But after these had come to Him from the sons of Israel, that is, from the chosen whom God foreordained for His glory, such as Peter, and the sons of Zebedee, and the tens of thousands of those Jews who believed, then God's goodness was poured out also upon the Gentiles. For those who are in the highways and hedges mean the Gentiles. The Israelites were within the city, inasmuch as they had received the lawgiving and inherited a civil and moral way of life. But the Gentiles were strangers to the Covenants, and the lawgiving of Christ was foreign to them. They were not fellow citizens of the saints, and did not travel the one true path, but instead followed many highways of lawlessness and coarseness, and were to be found in the hedges, that is, in sins. For sin is a great hedge and middle wall which separates us from God. By highways He signifies the Gentiles' coarse way of life, which led them to so many false beliefs. By hedges He signifies their life of sins. The master does not command his servant simply to call all those in the highways and hedges, but to compel them to come in, although each man is free whether to believe or not. But He uses the word compel to teach us that it is a sign of God's great power that the Gentiles, who were in such ignorance, came to believe. If the power of the preaching and the might of the word of truth had not been so great, how could men who were crazed with idol worship and practiced unspeakable things have been persuaded all at once to know the true God, and to perfect a spiritual life? He called this "compulsion" to show the miraculousness of their change. One might say that the pagan Greeks did not want to leave their idols and their rich feasting, yet they were compelled to flee from them by the truth of the Gospel. Also, the power of the miracles He worked was a strong force that induced them to be converted to faith in Christ. Every day this Supper is prepared and we are all invited to the kingdom which God prepared for man even before the foundation of the world. But we are not worthy of this Suppersome of us because of useless philosophical musings, others because of love of material things, and yet others because of pleasures of the flesh. But God in His love for man freely bestows this kingdom upon other sinners, upon the blind who have no spiritual vision to perceive the will of God; or if they can perceive it, upon those who are crippled and unable to take a step to do the will of God. And in short He grants the kingdom of heaven to all the poor who have fallen away from the glory above, and even to the maimed who cannot show forth in themselves a blameless life. To invite these sinners to the Supper, who are wandering astray in the streets and broad avenues of sin, the Father sends His Son Who became a Servant according to the flesh, and Who came not to call the righteous, but sinners. All these He feasts liberally, instead of the clever, the rich, and those who indulge the flesh. By the judgments known to Him alone He sends diseases and dangers upon many, causing them, even against their will, to renounce this life. Thus He leads them to His Supper, "compelling" them by means of the dangers. There are many examples of this. Understood in a simpler way, this parable also teaches us to show favor to the poor and the crippled rather than to the rich, just as He exhorted us to do a short while before. [Lk. 14:13-14] It is for this reason that He tells this parable, to confirm that we must give hospitality to the poor. And we may also learn from this that we should be so eager and generous in welcoming our brethren that, even when they are reluctant, we should compel them to partake of our good things. This is also good advice for teachers: teach what is necessary, even when the students are unwilling.

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All Israel is not Judah. You can tell because they're not the same word.

He also says not all who are of Israel are Israel.

Zobel said:

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All Israel is not Judah. You can tell because they're not the same word.

He also says not all who are of Israel are Israel.

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I may be wrong. And you may be right.

True. But I'm not just speaking in opinions. There are multiple prophesies about Israel and Judah. The word "Jew" comes from the Greek word for Judaean. A Jew is literally a Judaean. That is one tribe of 12. All Israel means exactly what it says - all 12 tribes, not just the Judaeans.

Zobel said:

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True. But I'm not just speaking in opinions. There are multiple prophesies about Israel and Judah. The word "Jew" comes from the Greek word for Judaean. A Jew is literally a Judaean. That is one tribe of 12. All Israel means exactly what it says - all 12 tribes, not just the Judaeans.

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You seriously think there were only Judeans in Judah? No other tribes lived in Judah? Not the Levites, not Benjamin, not members of the other tribes who fled into Judah?

No, I seriously don't think that.

Because you talk as though the other tribes completely disappeared into the ether instead of many resettling in the kingdom of Judah (not the tribe) and remaining a full part of the Jewish people. "Jew" refers to the people of the kingdom of Judah, not the tribe. That people includes representatives from all of the tribes of the polity known as the northern kingdom of Israel. You like to get a little too neat and cute when divorcing the tribes and nations of Israel as described in the Hebrew Bible from their physical reality in order to allow Christians to take over all claims to Israel.

Speaking of pedantry. So when Jews say the Schma twice daily, do they pray, "Shema y'israel…" or do they say, "Shema yehuda,"? Because your attempt to minimize the relationship between Jews and Israel is just bizarre. The relationship is one where the other tribes structured as tribes was lost from the people of Israel. The people called Jews are still Israel.

Juan Lee Pettimore said:

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Forgive me if this is dumb, but I'm just getting started on really exploring the Bible and have a LONG way to go.

But in the Parable of the Great Banquet, Jesus says: "I tell you not one of those who were invited will get a taste of my banquet."

Is he talking about the Jews? There is a common belief among Christians that since the Jews were "God's chosen people", that they are going to Heaven regardless of whether they have accepted Christ (I believe that Dermdoc may believe this). I don't know the answer to that, but the New Testament seems to be pretty clear that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. This verse in Luke (assuming I'm reading it right) seems to confirm that. What are your thoughts?

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First, the facts that both Jesus and Paul were Jews shows Jesus is not talking about the Jews.

Second, consider this. Moses stayed 120 days on Sinai and fasted the entire time. He did not eat bread or water. Moses could only do this because he gazed upon the Lord. The Lord sustained him. The reason why those who were invited will not taste the banquet is because they will be sustained in full by God's presence.

Uhhhh. Thanks, but…not sure I agree.

Juan Lee Pettimore said:

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Uhhhh. Thanks, but…not sure I agree.

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To be fair I did not respond to acquire your agreement. Clearly your question is premised upon a fundamental disagreement that transcends the subject of this thread. Since ancient times, the powers and principalities have sought to repress the truth. They have censored scripture and twisted it to suit their own ends. Jesus and Paul quoted from these scriptures, and the Satan sought to kill them. The truth is that those in heaven eat, but not in the way we eat. People will gaze upon God and he sustains them. Abraham did the same. When Abraham left the tent (the firmament) he went into the heavens where God showed Abraham looked down from space-time on everything that is and was and is to come. While Abraham was in heaven, he neither ate nor drank because he was not hungry or thirsty. Apoc. Ab. 12:12.

I don't read that parable in the context of "eating". In the parable, the party giver has invited a ton of people to come to his banquet, but all of them refused. Infuriated, he instructs his aides to invite all of the second class citizens to his banquet instead, since the original invited guests refused to come. In conclusion, he makes the statement "not a single one invited will ever eat at my banquet" (paraphrased) which, to me, is talking about whether any of the originally invited will EVER be welcomed again at his banquet, not actual "eating" at his banquet. So the question was "are the original banquet invitees who are now prohibited from attending, the Jews"?

no one is minimizing anything. judah is a part of all israel. all israel is all twelve tribes. the schma was given to all israel, not to judah.

the people called the jews are not israel in totality, and cannot be, because their own -- again, your own -- scriptures deny this.

for example

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The hand of the Lord was upon me, and he brought me out in the Spirit of the Lord and set me down in the middle of the valley; it was full of bones. And he led me around among them, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley, and behold, they were very dry. And he said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord God, you know." Then he said to me, "Prophesy over these bones, and say to them, O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live, and you shall know that I am the Lord."

So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I prophesied, there was a sound, and behold, a rattling, and the bones came together, bone to its bone. And I looked, and behold, there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them. But there was no breath in them. Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, Thus says the Lord God: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live." So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.

Then he said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are indeed cut off.' Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the Lord; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the Lord."

The word of the Lord came to me: "Son of man, take a stick and write on it, 'For Judah, and the people of Israel associated with him'; then take another stick and write on it, 'For Joseph (the stick of Ephraim) and all the house of Israel associated with him.' And join them one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand. And when your people say to you, 'Will you not tell us what you mean by these?' say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am about to take the stick of Joseph (that is in the hand of Ephraim) and the tribes of Israel associated with him. And I will join with it the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, that they may be one in my hand. When the sticks on which you write are in your hand before their eyes, then say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land. And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

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and

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Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

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and

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And the Lord said to me, "Faithless Israel has shown herself more righteous than treacherous Judah. Go, and proclaim these words toward the north, and say,

"'Return, faithless Israel,
declares the Lord.
I will not look on you in anger,
for I am merciful,
declares the Lord;
I will not be angry forever.
Only acknowledge your guilt,
that you rebelled against the Lord your God
and scattered your favors among foreigners under every green tree,
and that you have not obeyed my voice,
declares the Lord.
Return, O faithless children,
declares the Lord;
for I am your master;
I will take you, one from a city and two from a family,
and I will bring you to Zion.

"'And I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding. And when you have multiplied and been fruitful in the land, in those days, declares the Lord, they shall no more say, "The ark of the covenant of the Lord." It shall not come to mind or be remembered or missed; it shall not be made again. At that time Jerusalem shall be called the throne of the Lord, and all nations shall gather to it, to the presence of the Lord in Jerusalem, and they shall no more stubbornly follow their own evil heart. In those days the house of Judah shall join the house of Israel, and together they shall come from the land of the north to the land that I gave your fathers for a heritage.

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and

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In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples--of him shall the nations inquire, and his resting place shall be glorious.

In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant that remains of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea.

He will raise a signal for the nations
and will assemble the banished of Israel,
and gather the dispersed of Judah
from the four corners of the earth.
The jealousy of Ephraim shall depart,
and those who harass Judah shall be cut off;
Ephraim shall not be jealous of Judah,
and Judah shall not harass Ephraim.

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and

Quote:

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When the Lord first spoke through Hosea, the Lord said to Hosea, "Go, take to yourself a wife of *****dom and have children of *****dom, for the land commits great *****dom by forsaking the Lord." So he went and took Gomer, the daughter of Diblaim, and she conceived and bore him a son.

And the Lord said to him, "Call his name Jezreel, for in just a little while I will punish the house of Jehu for the blood of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel. And on that day I will break the bow of Israel in the Valley of Jezreel."

She conceived again and bore a daughter. And the Lord said to him, "Call her name No Mercy, for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel, to forgive them at all. But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and I will save them by the Lord their God. I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen."

When she had weaned No Mercy, she conceived and bore a son. And the Lord said, "Call his name Not My People, for you are not my people, and I am not your God."

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the place where it was said to them, "You are not my people," it shall be said to them, "Children of the living God." And the children of Judah and the children of Israel shall be gathered together, and they shall appoint for themselves one head. And they shall go up from the land, for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

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and

Quote:

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In those days and in that time, declares the Lord, the people of Israel and the people of Judah shall come together, weeping as they come, and they shall seek the Lord their God. They shall ask the way to Zion, with faces turned toward it, saying, 'Come, let us join ourselves to the Lord in an everlasting covenant that will never be forgotten.'

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and

Quote:

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"I will strengthen the house of Judah,
and I will save the house of Joseph.
I will bring them back because I have compassion on them,
and they shall be as though I had not rejected them,
for I am the Lord their God and I will answer them.
Then Ephraim shall become like a mighty warrior,
and their hearts shall be glad as with wine.
Their children shall see it and be glad;
their hearts shall rejoice in the Lord.

"I will whistle for them and gather them in,
for I have redeemed them,
and they shall be as many as they were before.
Though I scattered them among the nations,
yet in far countries they shall remember me,
and with their children they shall live and return.
I will bring them home from the land of Egypt,
and gather them from Assyria,
and I will bring them to the land of Gilead and to Lebanon,
till there is no room for them.
He shall pass through the sea of troubles
and strike down the waves of the sea,
and all the depths of the Nile shall be dried up.
The pride of Assyria shall be laid low,
and the scepter of Egypt shall depart.
I will make them strong in the Lord,
and they shall walk in his name,"
declares the Lord.

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Judah and Israel / Joseph / Ephraim are two distinct groups in the prophets. All Israel is both.

I am confused. Would not all Israel mean Judah and the northern kingdom? Or just the northern kingdom?

All Israel means all twelve tribes, yes. By the time these prophets were speaking, the 9/10 tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel were completely gone and scattered. That's why in Ezekiel they're dead, gone. They were scattered into the gentiles, "scattered among the nations".

In Romans St Paul is answering the question of "if Jesus is the messiah, why don't all the Jews recognize Him?" He answers it a couple of ways. One is - Israel was never faithful as a whole. Then the follow up is well then why are they blessed, a select people to begin with? To explain this he gives a few different examples showing that God blesses people and nations even knowing they will be unfaithful, and uses those blessings to bless others. Then brings this back home with the talk about the tree, and the branches. Going back to Genesis there is a prophecy about Ephraim, the son of Joseph, being the fullness of the gentiles. This is what St Paul is referring to in Romans 11, he uses the same phrase.

The faithless northern tribes are blessed, with God knowing full well they will apostasize (and some tribes do immediately), knowing that because of that they will be scattered and destroyed. Why? So that through them, when Jesus fulfills being the Messiah ben Joseph, the one who goes into the foreign land to save both the foreigner and his kin, He will save the whole world AND reconstitute Israel.

The gentiles coming to faith in Jesus are wild olive branches, and when they are grafted into Israel, the singular olive tree, they become part of Israel, just like He is the vine and we are the branches. When they're grafted in, they become part of Israel, and just like the ten tribes were scattered into the gentiles, out of the gentiles they are brought home from Egypt, Assyria, Pathros, Cush, etc etc etc.

In those days He says He will put the Torah on the house of Israel, a new covenant with both Israel and Judah, which St Paul says is the new covenant Christians participate in. This is why when speaking to gentiles St Paul speaks of "our fathers" who walked in the desert, following the cloud and so forth. The gentiles are part of Israel - grafted in.

All Israel is all twelve tribes - which is what St John sees in Revelation. Not just the tribes of Judah (Judah, Benjamin, Levi).

Thinking of "the Jews" as the totality of Israel and as God's chosen people apart from the rest of Israel misses a massive component of the prophets and one of the most common topics in the New Testament!

Thanks and I get that.where I get confused is when Paul says all Israel does he mean all 12 tribes plus the grafted in Gentiles?

the tribes of the northern kingdom which is called variously Israel, Joseph, or Ephraim ARE the gentiles who are grafted in.

that's why the gentiles "are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens"

the lost tribes were scattered into the nations like seeds, and the harvest is the gentiles who come to be grafted in.

in St Paul's metaphor you can say that the faithless tribes of the northern kingdom were branches from the tree, and their branches were broken off. the gentiles coming in are grafted into those spots, "they were broken off so that i may be grafted in".

All Israel is all twelve tribes, and the way the lost tribes are reborn, resurrected, is through the gentiles. us, you and me.

Zobel said:

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the tribes of the northern kingdom which is called variously Israel, Joseph, or Ephraim ARE the gentiles who are grafted in.

that's why the gentiles "are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens"

the lost tribes were scattered into the nations like seeds, and the harvest is the gentiles who come to be grafted in.

in St Paul's metaphor you can say that the faithless tribes of the northern kingdom were branches from the tree, and their branches were broken off. the gentiles coming in are grafted into those spots, "they were broken off so that i may be grafted in".

All Israel is all twelve tribes, and the way the lost tribes are reborn, resurrected, is through the gentiles. us, you and me.

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Got it. Thanks.

Zobel said:

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the tribes of the northern kingdom which is called variously Israel, Joseph, or Ephraim ARE the gentiles who are grafted in.

that's why the gentiles "are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens"

the lost tribes were scattered into the nations like seeds, and the harvest is the gentiles who come to be grafted in.

in St Paul's metaphor you can say that the faithless tribes of the northern kingdom were branches from the tree, and their branches were broken off. the gentiles coming in are grafted into those spots, "they were broken off so that i may be grafted in".

All Israel is all twelve tribes, and the way the lost tribes are reborn, resurrected, is through the gentiles. us, you and me.

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All Israel also included non-Israelites (not from the twelve tribes) in the OT.

dermdoc said:

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Zobel said:

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the tribes of the northern kingdom which is called variously Israel, Joseph, or Ephraim ARE the gentiles who are grafted in.

that's why the gentiles "are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens"

the lost tribes were scattered into the nations like seeds, and the harvest is the gentiles who come to be grafted in.

in St Paul's metaphor you can say that the faithless tribes of the northern kingdom were branches from the tree, and their branches were broken off. the gentiles coming in are grafted into those spots, "they were broken off so that i may be grafted in".

All Israel is all twelve tribes, and the way the lost tribes are reborn, resurrected, is through the gentiles. us, you and me.

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Got it. Thanks.

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All Israel also included non-Israelites (not from the twelve tribes) in the OT.

This pretty much sums up what Zobel has been saying.

https://www.google.com/search?q=what+does+all+israel+will+be+saved+mean+orthodox+meaning&client=safari&sca_esv=8604acb2d6485a04&channel=iphone_bm&sxsrf=AE3TifPlG7UhSiI5DaEDAS4vj9iB30-QVw%3A1751122133516&source=hp&ei=1QBgaNXEHeK7mtkPld2HsQc&iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGAO5aLz4sa8FTMx9uKBvzcxPd4oynXU&oq=&gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgAqAggEMgcQIxgnGOoCMgcQIxgnGOoCMgcQIxgnGOoCMgcQIxgnGOoCMgcQIxgnGOoCMgcQIxgnGOoCMg0QLhjHARgnGOoCGK8BMgcQIxgnGOoCMgcQIxgnGOoCMg0QLhjHARgnGOoCGK8BSJMbUABYAHABeACQAQCYAQCgAQCqAQC4AQHIAQCYAgGgAgeoAgqYAwfxBbkJEpPBtYmUkgcBMaAHALIHALgHAMIHAzItMcgHBg&sclient=gws-wiz

"… the New Testament seems to be pretty clear that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus."

+++

The Catholic Church teaches that there IS salvation outside the church and that would mean that there may be some non-Christians in heaven. This is because we teach that in certain non-Christian faiths, Islam and Judaism for example, have seeds of truth and goodness.

Correct me if I'm wrong but The Church teaches "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus," (outside of the Church there is no salvation.) Though someone could be saved by God's infinite justice and mercy as a non-Catholic, say for the invincibly ignorant, it would still be through a participation with the Church and natural law in what they are able to know, not through their false religions.

Maybe that's what you were saying and I misattributed or misunderstood your meaning.

I find this article to be helpful when looking at the use of the word "Jew" in the Bible:

https://www.hartman.org.il/how-did-the-word-jew-become-identified-with-the-jewish-people/

I think that the term "Jew", even in Jesus' day, often related to an ethnic group, not just the Tribe of Judah.

I know I have friends that identify as being from the tribe of Benjamin, and they call themselves Jews.

As far as the parable is concerned, there are specific people that are identified as being invited that give excuses:
1) One is more concerned with the land that they just bought
2) One is more concerned with their new donkey
3) One is more concerned with their spouse

I think that the explicit interpretation of the parable is that people that are more interested in wealth, work and human relationships / sex than they are spiritual matters will not make it to the banquet.

But, the context still strongly supports a reading where the Jewish people, as a whole, are also being reprimanded for rejecting Jesus. The people who are asked to come to the banquet after those invited rejected Jesus are the blind, lame, crippled, poor, and those that lived outside the city. This is pretty clearly an indication that people other than the Jews were being invited as well.

But, I don't think that Jesus is saying that none of the Jews will be saved. Clearly, there were some Jews that God is going to save. I mean, Enoch "walked with God, and then he was no more, because God took him away." This is generally understood to mean that Enoch went to be with God without even experiencing death, which is a profound paradox and mystery. I doubt that Moses is hanging out in purgatory right now waiting for the judgement day.

To me, it is clear that Jesus is teaching that many of the religious elite rejected Jesus, and that these are the type of people who Jesus first invited.

That said, I also think that it is dangerous to try and forecast who God will and will not save. I'm glad I don't have to be the one on the judgement seat. Jesus tells us how to be saved, and what to avoid doing in order to avoid becoming lost, but there are very few instances of specific people identified that are / were condemned for the final judgement.

Quote:

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I think that the term "Jew", even in Jesus' day, often related to an ethnic group, not just the Tribe of Judah.

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nobody thought in terms of "ethnic groups" then. "Jews" were Judaeans, the people who lived in Judaea. ethnos means a distinct people group - tribe, nation, etc - who shared some traits that made them distinct from other people.

it didnt mean "race" or some kind of genetic thing.

the people of the tribe of Judah weren't even genetically descended from Judah. Caleb was a Kenizzite and became an elder of the tribe of Judah. the mixed multitude that went out from Egypt was all kinds of genetic people groups who became part of Israel by participating ritually in their life.

what made the people who lived in Judaea distinct from the other people around them was their way of life, their nomos. this included their "religion" (another anachronistic idea) and their following Torah - how they dressed, ate, worshipped, worked, everything.

the people who followed that way of life were Judaeans, even if they didn't live in Judaea. They practiced Judaismos, the way of life of the people of Judaea. Or in other words, Judaism.

So practicing that way of life made you a Judaean, and part of the ethnos. People who were of the tribe of Judah were a subgroup of those who were Judaeans. St Paul called himself a Jew (Acts 22:3) as well as an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin (Philippians 3:5) who practiced Judaism (Galatians 1:13).

Zobel said:

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Quote:

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I think that the term "Jew", even in Jesus' day, often related to an ethnic group, not just the Tribe of Judah.

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nobody thought in terms of "ethnic groups" then. "Jews" were Judaeans, the people who lived in Judaea. ethnos means a distinct people group - tribe, nation, etc - who shared some traits that made them distinct from other people.

it didnt mean "race" or some kind of genetic thing.

the people of the tribe of Judah weren't even genetically descended from Judah. Caleb was a Kenizzite and became an elder of the tribe of Judah. the mixed multitude that went out from Egypt was all kinds of genetic people groups who became part of Israel by participating ritually in their life.

what made the people who lived in Judaea distinct from the other people around them was their way of life, their nomos. this included their "religion" (another anachronistic idea) and their following Torah - how they dressed, ate, worshipped, worked, everything.

the people who followed that way of life were Judaeans, even if they didn't live in Judaea. They practiced Judaismos, the way of life of the people of Judaea. Or in other words, Judaism.

So practicing that way of life made you a Judaean, and part of the ethnos. People who were of the tribe of Judah were a subgroup of those who were Judaeans. St Paul called himself a Jew (Acts 22:3) as well as an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin (Philippians 3:5) who practiced Judaism (Galatians 1:13).

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1) So, the Shalom Hartman Institute is just wrong? I mean, I don't usually rely on a call to authority in analyses, but I find no error in Hartman's analysis, and I assume that they have been looking at this for a while. Where are they wrong?

2) I am an American, a Texan, and an Aggie. Being a Texan also means that I am an American (for the time being).

3) I find it interesting that you characterize things like following the Torah to be something that was identified specifically with the Tribe of Judah, as opposed to all Israel. I would think that people from, for example, the tribe of Levi would take exception to that.

In all likelihood, 3 things happened to the people of Isreal after the Assyrian conquest:

1.) The ruling class was uprooted and scattered among the empire, as described in the Bible.

2.) A significant portion fled to Judea and eventually absorbed into the culture and became Judeans. The prophetess Josiah visits, for instance, is understood to be from either Ephraim or Mannasah. Archeological evidence supports this. We see a population explosion in Judea after the Assyrian conquest.

3.) Some stayed behind, gradually mixed with the ruling class the Assyrians put in place to rule them, and became "the Samaritans." They still exist. Genetic studies supports this is exactly who they are.

Just my 2 cents.

I dunno about wrong, I didn't read it. Sorry. Where do you think we disagree?

I don't see how point 2 conflicts with what I wrote. St Paul was an Israelite, a Judaean, a Hebrew, and a Pharisee, of the tribe of Benjamin. All Judaeans were nominally Israelites, but not all Israelites were Judaeans. A person from the tribe of Ephraim, for example, wouldn't be a Judaean.

I did not say following the Torah was identified with the tribe of Judah. I think you've misread what I said. The Torah was given to All Israel, the people of God. It was a way of life, and following that way of life is what made you an Israelite.

The majority of the tribes were not faithful to this, so they did not inherit the promises, and were scattered. Later in history (after the remaining tribes of Judaea were exiled for faithlessness) that way of life came to be identified with the people who continued to practice it - the Judaeans. Those people included people from multiple tribes, the tribes who lived in the kingdom of Judah.

Being identified as a Judaean was because of the way of life, which is Judaismos in Greek - the manner of being of Judaea, where we get "Judaism" from. The people who were in the diaspora continued to live this way of life and so were identified as Judaeans because of it -- even if they were not actually from Judaea any more. They lived like Judaeans, so that made them Judaeans. Like St Paul, who was from Tarsus, but was still a Judaean because of the manner and mode of living he followed. Similarly faithfulness to God, how you lived, is what made you an Israelite all along, which is why he says "not all who are of Israel are Israel".