Garden of Eden and the Snake

2,916 Views | 61 Replies | Last: 14 days ago by FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Had a thought last night about the Garden, Adam and Eve and the snake.

In Genesis, it says that the servant was more crafty than any of the animals that God created (Gen 3:1). The serpent and Eve had a conversation.

Does this translate that humans could speak to animals or had the ability to do so in the presence of God or was the speaking the manifestation of the devil in the garden?

I ask this because if the answer is yes, they could talk to animals, then speaking to the snake and having it respond to Eve wouldn't have made any waves. However, if the snake all of a sudden started speaking, it makes the fall of man even crazier that neither Adam or Eve thought, "hmm maybe we should talk to God about this…"
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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The Book of Genesis is a complex work that combines various types of literary genres. Chapters 1-2 present the creation of the world, humanity, and the universe. These chapters are theological and symbolic narratives, not scientific accounts, expressing profound truths about God as Creator and the relationship between God and creation. Chapters 1-11 contain stories of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, the Flood, and the Tower of Babel. These narratives address universal questions about humanity, sin, and God's relationship with the world, using symbolic and mythic elements to convey theological truths.

Starting with Genesis 12, the text shifts to the stories of the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph. These narratives are more historical in character, detailing God's covenant with Abraham and his descendants. They contain genealogies, family stories, and accounts of personal encounters with God, illustrating the unfolding of God's plan of salvation.

Throughout Genesis, there are elements of theological reflection, emphasizing God's covenant promises and the faithfulness of God despite human unfaithfulness.

So Genesis contains a variety of literary genres - mythic, symbolic, historical narrative, and theological- each of which convey theological truths and reveal God's relationship with humanity.

We don't have to believe in an actual talking snake in order to receive the word of God from Genesis.
KingofHazor
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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

The Book of Genesis is a complex work that combines various types of literary genres. Chapters 1-2 present the creation of the world, humanity, and the universe. These chapters are theological and symbolic narratives, not scientific accounts, expressing profound truths about God as Creator and the relationship between God and creation. Chapters 1-11 contain stories of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, the Flood, and the Tower of Babel. These narratives address universal questions about humanity, sin, and God's relationship with the world, using symbolic and mythic elements to convey theological truths.

Starting with Genesis 12, the text shifts to the stories of the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph. These narratives are more historical in character, detailing God's covenant with Abraham and his descendants. They contain genealogies, family stories, and accounts of personal encounters with God, illustrating the unfolding of God's plan of salvation.

Throughout Genesis, there are elements of theological reflection, emphasizing God's covenant promises and the faithfulness of God despite human unfaithfulness.

So Genesis contains a variety of literary genres - mythic, symbolic, historical narrative, and theological- each of which convey theological truths and reveal God's relationship with humanity.

We don't have to believe in an actual talking snake in order to receive the word of God from Genesis.

When did theologians first propose this view of Genesis 1-11 and why did they do so?
discobrob
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I don't agree that Genesis 1-11 (the whole or in part) can be moved into a category of "mythic." there's nothing to suggest that, other than things that might be hard for the modern reader to accept. If you have trouble with a talking snake, wait'll I tell you about a guy who died and rose from the dead.
Line Ate Member
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The talking snake does nothing but make truly marvel at the power of our God and what he created and allowed to happen. I have zero doubt and know that Jesus came down from Heaven, lived the perfect life, and suffered the death I was supposed to bear 100000x over. He rose and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

This was more of a conversation of "do you think they were talking with animals"? It does nothing to the story of the flood, Cain and Abel or any of the pieces that happen after. More of a marvel and a glimpse into what is to come when I reach the gates of Heaven.
Sapper Redux
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discobrob said:

I don't agree that Genesis 1-11 (the whole or in part) can be moved into a category of "mythic." there's nothing to suggest that, other than things that might be hard for the modern reader to accept. If you have trouble with a talking snake, wait'll I tell you about a guy who died and rose from the dead.


I mean, there's zero evidence for a literal interpretation and includes two creations and two flood stories that don't easily unify into a coherent narrative… but sure.
Silent For Too Long
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discobrob said:

I don't agree that Genesis 1-11 (the whole or in part) can be moved into a category of "mythic." there's nothing to suggest that, other than things that might be hard for the modern reader to accept. If you have trouble with a talking snake, wait'll I tell you about a guy who died and rose from the dead.


It's clearly mythical. It has huge congruencies to mesopatamian myths going all the way back to the Summerians.

Which is exactly the culture the Bible says Abraham came from.

Now you can certainly hold the position that real events inspired these myths. There almost certainly was a, if not many, massive regional floods, for instance. I personally find the notion that the Summerians came from further down the Tigris and Euphrates valley in an area that is now covered by the Persian Gulf to be quite plausible. I think "Eden", in a sense, was there, and losing access to that original home land and whatever event created the Persian Guld likely heavily influenced the flood myths.

But that's just my personal musings. The stories themselves are almost certainly mythical.

I also think you need to be careful about thinking "myth" equals "false" or "bad". Christ loved telling Parables to get deeper truths across. I think this is the best way for any believer to approach these myths.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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KingofHazor said:

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

The Book of Genesis is a complex work that combines various types of literary genres. Chapters 1-2 present the creation of the world, humanity, and the universe. These chapters are theological and symbolic narratives, not scientific accounts, expressing profound truths about God as Creator and the relationship between God and creation. Chapters 1-11 contain stories of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, the Flood, and the Tower of Babel. These narratives address universal questions about humanity, sin, and God's relationship with the world, using symbolic and mythic elements to convey theological truths.

Starting with Genesis 12, the text shifts to the stories of the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph. These narratives are more historical in character, detailing God's covenant with Abraham and his descendants. They contain genealogies, family stories, and accounts of personal encounters with God, illustrating the unfolding of God's plan of salvation.

Throughout Genesis, there are elements of theological reflection, emphasizing God's covenant promises and the faithfulness of God despite human unfaithfulness.

So Genesis contains a variety of literary genres - mythic, symbolic, historical narrative, and theological- each of which convey theological truths and reveal God's relationship with humanity.

We don't have to believe in an actual talking snake in order to receive the word of God from Genesis.


When did theologians first propose this view of Genesis 1-11 and why did they do so?


I think a better way to frame your question is how did the original author (presumably Moses) and the original audience understand it? If we start with how the Jewish community understands the literary tradition in the Book of Genesis that might be informative. While it's not monolithic, most Jewish traditions interpret it through lenses of religious and theological insight, such as the plain meaning (p'shat), allegorical or symbolic interpretations, and deeper mystical insights. The idea is that Scripture speaks on many levels, each offering valuable lessons.

The Midrashic Interpretation fills in narrative gaps, and draws out ethical and theological lessons. This enriches the understanding of Genesis by adding interpretative stories and commentary that convey deeper truths, a bit like a Genesis handbook.

Many Jews also see Genesis as establishing foundational themes central to Jewish identity, such as the covenant, faith, and the relationship between God and humanity. The patriarchal stories that come up after the first two chapters highlight faith, moral struggles, and divine promise, serving as archetypes for Jewish identity and faith. I don't think Jews think there was a talking snake in the Garden. I think they would find that belief as strange to Genesis.

Of course there are also the moral and ethical lessons that communicate principles for living. Christians and Jews cite the stories as examples of virtue, faith, and human fallibility.

Finally, there is the covenantal theology that is central in Genesis, especially in the stories of Abraham and his descendants. The covenants established are seen as pivotal for understanding the special relationship between God and the Jewish people, with ongoing relevance and impact throughout Jewish history. They also are the precursors to the new and everlasting covenant that Jesus would establish at the Last Supper and seal by his death and resurrection.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Silent For Too Long said:

discobrob said:

I don't agree that Genesis 1-11 (the whole or in part) can be moved into a category of "mythic." there's nothing to suggest that, other than things that might be hard for the modern reader to accept. If you have trouble with a talking snake, wait'll I tell you about a guy who died and rose from the dead.


It's clearly mythical. It has huge congruencies to mesopatamian myths going all the way back to the Summerians.

Which is exactly the culture the Bible says Abraham came from.

Now you can certainly hold the position that real events inspired these myths. There almost certainly was a, if not many, massive regional floods, for instance. I personally find the notion that the Summerians came from further down the Tigris and Euphrates valley in an area that is now covered by the Persian Gulf to be quite plausible. I think "Eden", in a sense, was there, and losing access to that original home land and whatever event created the Persian Guld likely heavily influenced the flood myths.

But that's just my personal musings. The stories themselves are almost certainly mythical.

I also think you need to be careful about thinking "myth" equals "false" or "bad". Christ loved telling Parables to get deeper truths across. I think this is the best way for any believer to approach these myths.


Yes! Myth does not mean false in what it teaches or means.
TSJ
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Later in the OT, there's also a donkey that saw an angel and told its master it can't go any further.

I don't see a problem with animals talking to humans. I think we are coming from modernist secular world view that doesn't comprehend the full spectrum of the world around us.
KingofHazor
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Why did you not answer my question?

Also, how is the Midrashic tradition, 1500 or so years after Moses, valuable in understanding Moses intent? Much of your post appears to be about modern Jewish interpretation (although that's not clear). How is that any more relevant than interpretation by Christian theologians since Christ?

Didn't Jesus and the NT authors appear to view those chapters as literal?
KingofHazor
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Quote:

[color=#000000]It's clearly mythical. It has huge congruencies to mesopatamian myths going all the way back to the Summerians.[/color]


Don't you think that if it was literal and factual, that the events described would also be reflected, albeit imperfectly, in other cultures' memories and "myths"?
Sapper Redux
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KingofHazor said:

Quote:

[color=#000000]It's clearly mythical. It has huge congruencies to mesopatamian myths going all the way back to the Summerians.[/color]


Don't you think that if it was literal and factual, that the events described would also be reflected, albeit imperfectly, in other cultures' memories and "myths"?


No.
Silent For Too Long
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Clement and Origen, two of the earliest church fathers (late 2nd and early 3rd century), wrote extensively about allegorical interpretations of Genesis.
KingofHazor
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Sapper Redux said:

KingofHazor said:

Quote:

[color=#000000]It's clearly mythical. It has huge congruencies to mesopatamian myths going all the way back to the Summerians.[/color]


Don't you think that if it was literal and factual, that the events described would also be reflected, albeit imperfectly, in other cultures' memories and "myths"?


No.

Another in-depth and persuasive analysis from our friend Sapper.
KingofHazor
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Silent For Too Long said:

Clement and Origen, two of the earliest church fathers (late 2nd and early 3rd century), wrote extensively about allegorical interpretations of Genesis.

Just shows you the danger of being influenced by non-Christian philosophers.
Sapper Redux
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KingofHazor said:

Sapper Redux said:

KingofHazor said:

Quote:

[color=#000000]It's clearly mythical. It has huge congruencies to mesopatamian myths going all the way back to the Summerians.[/color]


Don't you think that if it was literal and factual, that the events described would also be reflected, albeit imperfectly, in other cultures' memories and "myths"?


No.

Another in-depth and persuasive analysis from our friend Sapper.


There's nothing you can point to in geology or archeology to support any kind of literal or factual reading. And the myths themselves are dramatically different in the details. What they point to are broad traditions of narrative cycles that speak to societies built on rivers and flood plains. Any attempt to claim a hidden history beyond that is just wish fulfillment.
KingofHazor
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You didn't answer my question, and every statement you made is wrong and poorly informed.
Sapper Redux
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KingofHazor said:

You didn't answer my question, and every statement you made is wrong and poorly informed.


Your question is part of the wish fulfillment. You aren't actually looking at the evidence, you're picking and choosing what questions to ask and evidence to privilege in order to support the conclusion you've already reached.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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KingofHazor said:

Why did you not answer my question?

Also, how is the Midrashic tradition, 1500 or so years after Moses, valuable in understanding Moses intent? Much of your post appears to be about modern Jewish interpretation (although that's not clear). How is that any more relevant than interpretation by Christian theologians since Christ?

Didn't Jesus and the NT authors appear to view those chapters as literal?


I think your question is dumb. So I tried to avoid being rude. But since you insist on demanding an answer to a dumb question, I will say I have no idea. Why don't you do some research and find the answer you want and then come back here and tell us how it demonstrates that the author of Genesis was clearly telling us that a snake spoke to Eve in the literal garden of Eden.
KingofHazor
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Sapper Redux said:

KingofHazor said:

You didn't answer my question, and every statement you made is wrong and poorly informed.


Your question is part of the wish fulfillment. You aren't actually looking at the evidence, you're picking and choosing what questions to ask and evidence to privilege in order to support the conclusion you've already reached.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Your base line assumption is that everything with Christianity is wrong. On this board, at least, you have never seemed to question any of your assumptions on any aspect of Christianity, no matter how much evidence is adduced.
KingofHazor
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Quote:

I think your question is dumb. So I tried to avoid being rude. But since you insist on demanding an answer to a dumb question, I will say I have no idea. Why don't you do some research and find the answer you want and then come back here and tell us how it demonstrates that the author of Genesis was clearly telling us that a snake spoke to Eve in the literal garden of Eden.

Your response is an ad hominem.

I wasn't asking about the talking snake. I was asking about your broad generalizations about the interpretation of Genesis 1-11.
Hey...so.. um
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My take on this is none of it really matters and distracts us from the bigger picture.

If you believe in God and you believe he is all powerful, then Genesis could be literal, it could be metaphor or hyperbole, etc. But the message is still the same. Same with Job.

I don't really know which it is and it does nothing to sway my faith either way.

If you don't believe in God then you will pick holes in the story because you apply the knowledge of man and logic of man to a story of the creator of the universe where neither of those things are relevant. You won't accept our logic because it doesn't line up with earthly logic.

I've heard arguments from non believers accusing Christians of explaining away every inconsistency or unnatural thing in the Bible by just saying that God is all powerful and can do anything. I think both sides are right because they use different sets of logic. Both sides can make logical arguments, but the logic comes from different places.

My logic comes from God and that logic is often completely opposite than worldly logic. Things I do would not make sense to several in this thread.
KingofHazor
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Here is what James Barr, a renowned Biblical scholar, a critic of evangelical conservatism, and one who did not believe in the historicity of the Genesis account, had to say in 1984 about their interpretation:

Quote:

So for as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience (b) the figures contained int he Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story (c) Noah's flood was understood to be worldwide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark.


FTACo88-FDT24dad
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KingofHazor said:

Here is what James Barr, a renowned Biblical scholar, a critic of evangelical conservatism, and one who did not believe in the historicity of the Genesis account, had to say in 1984 about their interpretation:

Quote:

So for as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience (b) the figures contained int he Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story (c) Noah's flood was understood to be worldwide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark.





So what do you need answered. There you go.

And it's not ad hominem. I said it was a dumb question. I didn't say anything about you.
Sapper Redux
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KingofHazor said:

Sapper Redux said:

KingofHazor said:

You didn't answer my question, and every statement you made is wrong and poorly informed.


Your question is part of the wish fulfillment. You aren't actually looking at the evidence, you're picking and choosing what questions to ask and evidence to privilege in order to support the conclusion you've already reached.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Your base line assumption is that everything with Christianity is wrong. On this board, at least, you have never seemed to question any of your assumptions on any aspect of Christianity, no matter how much evidence is adduced.


You haven't provided a lick of actual evidence. Your evidence is that you MUST believe Genesis is literal in order to adhere to the faith you believe in. Thus you will seek out anything, no matter how weak, to validate the belief you have rather than analyze the data and arrive at a conclusion.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Sapper Redux said:

KingofHazor said:

Sapper Redux said:

KingofHazor said:

You didn't answer my question, and every statement you made is wrong and poorly informed.


Your question is part of the wish fulfillment. You aren't actually looking at the evidence, you're picking and choosing what questions to ask and evidence to privilege in order to support the conclusion you've already reached.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Your base line assumption is that everything with Christianity is wrong. On this board, at least, you have never seemed to question any of your assumptions on any aspect of Christianity, no matter how much evidence is adduced.


You haven't provided a lick of actual evidence. Your evidence is that you MUST believe Genesis is literal in order to adhere to the faith you believe in. Thus you will seek out anything, no matter how weak, to validate the belief you have rather than analyze the data and arrive at a conclusion.

I hate to admit it but I agree with this.

And for the record, I believe Genesis is the word of God and contains theological and spiritual truths that are binding on my conscience.
Hey...so.. um
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Sapper Redux said:

KingofHazor said:

Sapper Redux said:

KingofHazor said:

You didn't answer my question, and every statement you made is wrong and poorly informed.


Your question is part of the wish fulfillment. You aren't actually looking at the evidence, you're picking and choosing what questions to ask and evidence to privilege in order to support the conclusion you've already reached.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Your base line assumption is that everything with Christianity is wrong. On this board, at least, you have never seemed to question any of your assumptions on any aspect of Christianity, no matter how much evidence is adduced.


You haven't provided a lick of actual evidence. Your evidence is that you MUST believe Genesis is literal in order to adhere to the faith you believe in. Thus you will seek out anything, no matter how weak, to validate the belief you have rather than analyze the data and arrive at a conclusion.


The data all points towards Jesus and the Bible, but many don't want to look at the data. If you are talking about concrete evidence, then yeah it may be hard to follow the data to Jesus for most people, but many have made that journey too and ended up at Jesus.

But what about this data? Less than .1% of married couples who pray together and attend church together get divorced. Would that not be data that says a Godly marriage works better? How about the data that shows that reading the Bible 3-5 times per week reduces stress, anxiety and depression significantly? This is annidotal, but if I examine the data of my own life, every time I submit to Jesus, I have peace, am filled with love for people and am more driven to serve others. That is all data that points to Jesus but if you don't want to believe, you will dismiss it.

I will leave you with this last question. Why do you speak out so much against Christianity on this board? What drives that?
10andBOUNCE
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Is Gen 2:10-15 allegorical? Naming real places and such?

How does one flip the switch from allegory to literal? Seems like a dangerous exercise.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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10andBOUNCE said:

Is Gen 2:10-15 allegorical? Naming real places and such?

How does one flip the switch from allegory to literal? Seems like a dangerous exercise.


I don't think it's a binary thing. Why can't myth and allegory incorporate actual geography?
10andBOUNCE
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It can but that seems to leave yourself open to a convoluted mess.

What would be the disadvantage of taking all of creation as laid out in Genesis at it's written word?
Hey...so.. um
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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

10andBOUNCE said:

Is Gen 2:10-15 allegorical? Naming real places and such?

How does one flip the switch from allegory to literal? Seems like a dangerous exercise.


I don't think it's a binary thing. Why can't myth and allegory incorporate actual geography?


Can anyone explain why it actually matters for the Christian faith?
10andBOUNCE
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For one, the first mention of the gospel is in Genesis 3.
Hey...so.. um
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10andBOUNCE said:

For one, the first mention of the gospel is in Genesis 3.


But does Genesis being literal or otherwise impact that? If so, I'd love to learn. I personally believe in a literal Genesis but I was just wondering.
10andBOUNCE
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I likely need to work more through this myself theologically, but my kneejerk reaction is it should absolutely have an impact.

Maybe a modern day question might be...if WW2 was just an allegory, it surely would not have the same impact on our world versus the fact that it actually happened in history.
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