"He performs great signs so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."

Zobel said:

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"Fire from heaven" is lightning.

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Says you.

Psalm 97:4

"His lightnings light up the world; the earth sees and trembles."


John the revelator would have used the word "lightning" if that were true. He used the word fire, however.

Also this:

Revelation 4:5. "From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder."


John the revelator clearly understands the difference between fire and lightning as this verse proves.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Are you saying that John's revelation included a rocket being returned to earth?

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And beings and evil spirits that looked like frogs.

there are multiple ways to describe things in different languages. "fire from heaven" is used to describe lightning in the OT in hebrew as well as the word for flashing / lightning itself. you can see this in the various translations of exodus 9:23.

Zobel said:

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there are multiple ways to describe things in different languages. "fire from heaven" is used to describe lightning in the OT in hebrew as well as the word for flashing / lightning itself. you can see this in the various translations of exodus 9:23.

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I just showed you a verse where New Testament John actually uses the word lightning to describe Gods throne proving there is a difference that he understands.

There is no translation for Rev 13:13 that substitutes lightning for fire.

But please continue to conflate.

Zobel said:

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yeah, this is a dumb discussion. i regret my involvement. carry on.

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Scoffer.

jonb02 said:

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Zobel said:

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yeah, this is a dumb discussion. i regret my involvement. carry on.

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Scoffer.

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Don't mind him. He doesn't even believe Revelation is scripture.

I'd like to put it into context though. Are you suggesting SpaceX is the second beast or something/someone else?

11 Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 13 It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people, 14 and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain. 16 Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, 17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. 18 This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.

I mean, technically we don't even have a bible

Go be cryptic somewhere else. This thread is about unlocking the secrets of Revelation and applying them to current events.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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jonb02 said:

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Zobel said:

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yeah, this is a dumb discussion. i regret my involvement. carry on.

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Scoffer.

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Don't mind him. He doesn't even believe Revelation is scripture.

I'd like to put it into context though. Are you suggesting SpaceX is the second beast or something/someone else?

11 Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 13 It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people, 14 and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain. 16 Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, 17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. 18 This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.

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That is a terrific question. My personal belief is that the 2nd beast is a man unlike the world has ever seen before and who is capable of bringing fire down from the heavens to the earth in the site of the world. When I read verse 15 I can't help but think about the point of singularity when AI becomes self aware, I.e. is given breath. I believe we are 1or 2 years away from this "achievement". AI is the only technology ever invented with no limit. It makes sense to me also that AI is in charge of the world in verses 16 and 17.

Who is this man?

So the details in Revelation are essentially worthless.

Quote:

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I believe Revelation was written to the early churches and the main thrust was encouragement in the face of Roman oppression.

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Only the early churches? No relevance today? You say it has a "main thrust", but it has 22 chapters of details, of which we're not supposed to inquire about.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Quote:

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I believe Revelation was written to the early churches and the main thrust was encouragement in the face of Roman oppression.

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Main thrust with 22 chapters of details, of which we're not supposed to inquire about.

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And I also never said that either. At least you are consistent.
Knock yourself out. All I did was give you my opinion. Please stop projecting and posting things I didn't say. Thanks.

What is your opinion? That you "scoff at humans" trying to interpret the details. Very helpful. First, a lot of godly men throughout the centuries have spent a great deal of time studying Revelation. And you scoff at them. Second, if we're not supposed to inquire into the details, why were they given?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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What is your opinion? That you "scoff at humans" trying to interpret the details. Very helpful. First, a lot of godly men throughout the centuries have spent a great deal of time studying Revelation. And you scoff at them. Second, if we're not supposed to inquire into the details, why were they given?

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Knock yourself out my brother in Christ.

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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What is your opinion? That you "scoff at humans" trying to interpret the details. Very helpful. First, a lot of godly men throughout the centuries have spent a great deal of time studying Revelation. And you scoff at them. Second, if we're not supposed to inquire into the details, why were they given?

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Knock yourself out my brother in Christ.

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I've started a thread on the prostitute in Rev. 17.

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Go be cryptic somewhere else. This thread is about unlocking the secrets of Revelation and applying them to current events.

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That has been attempted before. About a million times. Made a lot of people rich. Mostly fear driven.

And where does bitcoin fit in?

Yes, I am scoffing at humans trying to figure this stuff out. Since the Lord told His closest followers that even He did not know the day, He would probably agree with me.

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The Lord also said we would know the season.

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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So the details in Revelation are essentially worthless.

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You have a strange habit of projecting and putting words in people's mouths.
I believe Revelation was written to the early churches and the main thrust was encouragement in the face of Roman oppression.
And that is one of about a million interpretations of Revelation. And one that does not generate millions of dollars with books and movies.
I agree with the Orthodox Church view on Revelation. A part of the canon bit should be read with extreme caution as far as concrete interpretation.

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Then you don't believe in a living bible because what you are saying is Revelation is a book of wasted words since it was written for the "early churches".

It is my strong opinion that people try really hard to make the book of Revelation far more exciting than it is.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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It is my strong opinion that people try really hard to make the book of Revelation far more exciting than it is.

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Amen. Made a lot of people a lot of money on books and movies.