The prostitute of Babylon in Revelation

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Martin Q. Blank
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9:50a, 7/18/25
Rev. 17:18 And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.

In John's day, this could only mean Rome.

Rev. 17:7 But the angel said to me, "Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her.

What are these seven heads?

Rev. 17:9 This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated.

This, again, can only mean Rome. https://www.britannica.com/place/Seven-Hills-of-Rome
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Quo Vadis?
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12:39p, 7/18/25
Yeah definitely about Rome, Nero and Domitian were both Antichrists, and the allusion to Pagan Babylon persecuting the people of God, vs Pagan Rome persecuting the new Israel certainly fits.
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lobopride
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2:19p, 7/18/25
Rome, Sodom, Egypt, Babylon are all in Revelation and more or less mean the same symbolic cesspool of the world's idolatrous system.
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Champion of Fireball
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2:56p, 7/18/25
AG
Thank goodness there isn't anything in Rome now to worry about.
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Elmer Dobkins
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7:53p, 7/18/25
AG
Will the pope snd Roman Catholic Church usher in the antiChrist system?
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Quo Vadis?
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In reply to Elmer Dobkins • 1:25a, 7/19/25
Elmer Dobkins said:
Will the pope snd Roman Catholic Church usher in the antiChrist system?


The Roman Catholic Church conquered Pagan Rome
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FTACo88-FDT24dad
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8:43a, 7/20/25
AG
Wait, are y'all suggesting the beast with seven heads and ten horns isn't an actual beast with seven heads and ten horns? Heresy!
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BonfireNerd04
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In reply to Quo Vadis? • 2:45p, 7/20/25
Quo Vadis? said:
Elmer Dobkins said:
Will the pope snd Roman Catholic Church usher in the antiChrist system?


The Roman Catholic Church conquered Pagan Rome

The Roman Catholic Church adapted to Pagan Rome.
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94chem
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In reply to BonfireNerd04 • 5:35p, 7/20/25
BonfireNerd04 said:
Quo Vadis? said:
Elmer Dobkins said:
Will the pope snd Roman Catholic Church usher in the antiChrist system?


The Roman Catholic Church conquered Pagan Rome

The Roman Catholic Church adapted to Pagan Rome.


Rejects the apostleship of Paul, and the entire evangelistic movement in the Roman Empire. Feel like I'm trying to pin the tail on a UFO.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
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Quo Vadis?
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In reply to BonfireNerd04 • 3:57a, 7/21/25
BonfireNerd04 said:
Quo Vadis? said:
Elmer Dobkins said:
Will the pope snd Roman Catholic Church usher in the antiChrist system?


The Roman Catholic Church conquered Pagan Rome

The Roman Catholic Church adapted to Pagan Rome.


Much like Aquinas did with Aristotle, the church distilled what was true within the beliefs it vanquished, and sanctified the rest.
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MRB10
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In reply to Quo Vadis? • 5:52a, 7/22/25
AG
I immediately thought of the US and the mag 7.
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Thaddeus73
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9:22a, 7/22/25
AG
The woman (great city) is Jerusalem, per Revelation 11:8 :
and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

Jerusalem also sits on 7 hills, by the way...
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tacosalpastor
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In reply to Thaddeus73 • 5:49p, 7/26/25
A very strong argument can be made that Jerusalem is the prostitute of Babylon.
Quote:
Revelation 11:78
7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, 8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

With symbolic names like Sodom and Egypt, it is logical to believe that "Babylon the great" is also referring to "the great city (Jerusalem)" in 11:8.
Quote:
Revelation 14:8
8 Another angel, a second, followed, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality."

Textually, then, Jerusalem = Sodom/Egypt/Babylon. Symbolic names given to Jerusalem to indicate that an apocalyptic judgment was coming for their unfaithfulness to the covenant and their killing of the Messiah.

Revelation 17:6 describes the prostitute as "drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the witnesses of Jesus," and Revelation 18:24 states that in Babylon "was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all that was slain upon the earth." Jesus Himself stated in Luke 13:33 that "it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem".

Throughout the OT, the illustration of prostitution is used frequently in relation to Israel's unfaithfulness and idolatry. This provides a biblical precedent for depicting a covenantally unfaithful Jerusalem as the prostitute of Babylon.

There is more, but I think it is reasonable and biblical to see the prostitute of Babylon as Jerusalem, especially in light of the coming apocalyptic destruction that was coming in 70AD that was being prophesied here in Revelation.
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Thaddeus73
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5:19a, 7/27/25
AG
True...Jerusalem also sits on 7 hills...Vatican Hill in Rome is not one of the original 7 hills...Isaiah 1:21 calls out Jerusalem as a harlot, as well....
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CrackerJackAg
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In reply to Quo Vadis? • 9:37a, 7/27/25
AG
Quo Vadis? said:
Elmer Dobkins said:
Will the pope snd Roman Catholic Church usher in the antiChrist system?


The Roman Catholic Church conquered Pagan Rome


There was no RCC until after Christianity was well established in the empire for 600+ years.

Rome struggled to keep the Arians in check in their back yard and needed imperial help.

Claiming the RCC was around is like Protestants trying to take credit for the creation of the Bible and the Church councils.
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Thaddeus73
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11:18a, 7/27/25
AG
The Catholic Church was created by Jesus in 33 AD..."Upon this Rock (Peter), I will build MY Church."
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94chem
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7:20a, 7/28/25
I predict a quick resolution here.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
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Quo Vadis?
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In reply to CrackerJackAg • 10:25a, 7/28/25
CrackerJackAg said:
Quo Vadis? said:
Elmer Dobkins said:
Will the pope snd Roman Catholic Church usher in the antiChrist system?


The Roman Catholic Church conquered Pagan Rome


There was no RCC until after Christianity was well established in the empire for 600+ years.

Rome struggled to keep the Arians in check in their back yard and needed imperial help.

Claiming the RCC was around is like Protestants trying to take credit for the creation of the Bible and the Church councils.


Literally what? Who is Augustine sending copies of the canon to in the late 4th century? What are Peter and Paul doing in Rome?
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FTACo88-FDT24dad
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In reply to CrackerJackAg • 2:34p, 7/28/25
AG
CrackerJackAg said:
Quo Vadis? said:
Elmer Dobkins said:
Will the pope snd Roman Catholic Church usher in the antiChrist system?


The Roman Catholic Church conquered Pagan Rome


There was no RCC until after Christianity was well established in the empire for 600+ years.

Rome struggled to keep the Arians in check in their back yard and needed imperial help.

Claiming the RCC was around is like Protestants trying to take credit for the creation of the Bible and the Church councils.

Hard to take this seriously.
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Thaddeus73
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7:01a, 7/29/25
AG
If one takes the time to study the early church fathers, who came on the scene after ACTS, you will find that they were all Catholic, believing in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, Baptismal Regeneration, the necessity of the bishop overseeing the church, etc.

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/churchfathers.html
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CrackerJackAg
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In reply to Thaddeus73 • 9:57p, 8/5/25
AG
Thaddeus73 said:
The Catholic Church was created by Jesus in 33 AD..."Upon this Rock (Peter), I will build MY Church."


Only one Universal/Catholic Church.

The "Roman Catholic Church" as we know it today is not the same thing to me as the Church in the 4th century.

Peter and Paul were not from Rome, the city or even the West. Peter was not Roman.

Peter founded the Church in Antioch and served as its first Bishop. Close to a decade in Antioch and almost all of his life in the East.

Peter spent maybe as little as a few years total in Rome before his martyrdom.

Paul did not mention him in his greetings in Romans.

In fact the Bible does not explicitly even state his presence there or as a" founder " of the Church. Certainly not the founder as it existed before he arrived as Paul did not mention him.

Peter or Paul would not have accepted the concept of The Roman Bishop separating itself from the rest of the Church.

I'm not Roman Catholic. Maybe you are and that origin story it's important to you.

Peter was a first amongst equals. Certainly don't believe "The Pope" holds exclusive rights to that title. In fact it's dubious to me.




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Quo Vadis?
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In reply to CrackerJackAg • 1:14a, 8/6/25
CrackerJackAg said:
Thaddeus73 said:
The Catholic Church was created by Jesus in 33 AD..."Upon this Rock (Peter), I will build MY Church."


Only one Universal/Catholic Church.

The "Roman Catholic Church" as we know it today is not the same thing to me as the Church in the 4th century.

Peter and Paul were not from Rome, the city or even the West. Peter was not Roman.

Peter founded the Church in Antioch and served as its first Bishop. Close to a decade in Antioch and almost all of his life in the East.

Peter spent maybe as little as a few years total in Rome before his martyrdom.

Paul did not mention him in his greetings in Romans.

In fact the Bible does not explicitly even state his presence there or as a" founder " of the Church. Certainly not the founder as it existed before he arrived as Paul did not mention him.

Peter or Paul would not have accepted the concept of The Roman Bishop separating itself from the rest of the Church.

I'm not Roman Catholic. Maybe you are and that origin story it's important to you.

Peter was a first amongst equals. Certainly don't believe "The Pope" holds exclusive rights to that title. In fact it's dubious to me.






Ok, but there still was a Roman Catholic Church, which See was Peter Bishop of when he was killed? You can't gloss over 1000 years of history and pretend it didn't exist.
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Thaddeus73
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5:47a, 8/6/25
AG
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Martin Q. Blank
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9:41a, 8/6/25
That beast of the Apocalypse (Rev. 13:5-7), to whom is given a mouth speaking blasphemies, and to make war with the saints, is sitting on the throne of Peter, like a lion ready for his prey.
-Bernard of Clairvaux, Letter to Magister Geoffrey of Loretto
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Quo Vadis?
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 10:50a, 8/6/25
Martin Q. Blank said:
That beast of the Apocalypse (Rev. 13:5-7), to whom is given a mouth speaking blasphemies, and to make war with the saints, is sitting on the throne of Peter, like a lion ready for his prey.
-Bernard of Clairvaux, Letter to Magister Geoffrey of Loretto

Absolutely, he was referring to Antipope Anacletus II; who had forced the actual Pope Innocent II (of whom Clairvaux was a big supporter) to flee to France.

This was all fixed with the Second Lateran Council.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Quo Vadis? • 11:45a, 8/6/25
What do you mean it was fixed? Bernard identifies the beast as the pope in Rome. He was not "Pagan Rome" or some future person/entity, but already arrived.
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Quo Vadis?
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 11:57a, 8/6/25
Martin Q. Blank said:
What do you mean it was fixed? Bernard identifies the beast as the pope in Rome. He was not "Pagan Rome" or some future person/entity, but already arrived.

No he doesn't, he identifies it with the Antipope Anacletus II, who was in Rome at the time; while the real Pope Innocent II, had to flee to France.

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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Quo Vadis? • 1:14p, 8/6/25
You only call him antipope because you're told to. He was elected by a much larger majority of Cardinals than Innocent II.

The point remains though. Bernard identified a person, sitting on Peter's throne, as the beast of Revelation. Not "Pagan Rome".
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Thaddeus73
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1:25p, 8/6/25
AG
In the OT, Israel/Jerusalem were called harlots by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, etc., for chasing after false gods. In the NT, that is fulfilled when Israel/Jerusalem (the ***** of Babylon/Rome) teamed up with Rome to kill Jesus. in 70 AD, the ***** was indeed burned up by the beast Rome.....
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747Ag
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1:26p, 8/6/25
AG
Quote:
LETTER XXXVII (circa A.D. 1131)

To Magister Geoffrey, of Loretto.

He asks his assistance in maintaining the Pontificate of Innocent against the schism of Peter Leonis.

1. We look for scent in flowers and for savor in fruits; and so, most dearly beloved brother, attracted by the scent of your name which is as perfume poured forth, I long to know you also in the fruit of your work. For it is not I alone, but even God Himself, who has need of no man, yet who, at this crisis, needs your co-operation, if you do not act falsely towards us. It is a glorious thing to be able to be a fellow-worker with God; but perilous to be able and not to be so. Moreover, you have favor with God and man; you have knowledge, a spirit of freedom, a speech both lively and effectual, seasoned with salt; and it is not right that with all these great gifts you should fail the bride of Christ in such danger, for you are the friend of the Bridegroom. A friend is best tried in times of need. What then? Can you continue at rest while your Mother the Church is grievously distressed? Rest has had its proper time, and holy peace has till now freely and duly done its own work. It is now the time for action, because they have destroyed the law. That beast of the Apocalypse (Apoc. xiii. 5-7), to whom is given a mouth speaking blasphemies, and to make war with the saints, is sitting on the throne of Peter, like a lion ready for his prey. Another beast also stands hissing at your side, like a whelp lurking in secret places. The fiercer here and the craftier there are met together in one against the Lord and his anointed. Let us, then, make haste to burst their bonds and cast away their cords from us.

2. I, for my part, together with other servants of God who are set on fire with the Divine flame, have labored, with the help of God, to unite the nations and kings in one, in order to break down the conspiracy of evil men, and to destroy every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. Nor have I labored in vain. The Kings of Germany, France, England, Scotland, Spain, and Jerusalem, with all the clergy and people, side with and adhere to the Lord Innocent, like sons to a father, like the members to their head, being anxious to preserve the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. And the Church is right in acknowledging him, whose reputation is discovered to be the more honorable and whose election is found to be the more sound and regular, having the advantage as well by the merit as well as by the number of the electors. And now, brother, why do you hold back? How long will the serpent by your side lull your careless energies to repose? I know that you are a son of peace, and can by no reason be led to desert unity. But, of course, that alone is not enough, unless you study both to maintain it and to make war with all your might upon the disturbers thereof. And do not fear the loss of peace, for you shall be rewarded by no small increase of glory if your efforts succeed in quieting, or even silencing, that wild beast near you; and if the goodness of God, through your means, rescue from the mouth of the lion so great a prize for the Church as William, Count of Poitiers.

Clearly Bernard is saying there is a usurper and Innocent is the legitimate successor of Peter.

https://www.ecatholic2000.com/bernard/letters.shtml
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to 747Ag • 1:30p, 8/6/25
Why? Because he has the support of the Kings of Germany, France, England, Scotland, Spain, and Jerusalem, with all the clergy and people. Not the cardinals. Remind me again how the pope is elected these days?
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Quo Vadis?
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 2:41p, 8/6/25
Martin Q. Blank said:
You only call him antipope because you're told to. He was elected by a much larger majority of Cardinals than Innocent II.

The point remains though. Bernard identified a person, sitting on Peter's throne, as the beast of Revelation. Not "Pagan Rome".

No, we call him the antipope because he decided to hold another election after Innocent II was named Pope and then declared himself Pope.

If Trump decided to invade the Vatican, he could very well sit himself on Peter's throne and call himself "Pope". It wouldn't make him so.

The person that you're claiming is calling the Pope the antichrist, was a staunch defender of the actual pope; and is calling the antipope the antichrist, and you're using his statement as support for a point I don't think you even understand.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Quo Vadis? • 2:45p, 8/6/25
Quote:
No, we call him the antipope because he decided to hold another election after Innocent II was named Pope

Did he win?
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Quo Vadis?
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 2:47p, 8/6/25
Martin Q. Blank said:
Quote:
No, we call him the antipope because he decided to hold another election after Innocent II was named Pope

Did he win?

Since he's known as "Anti-pope", I would say he lost.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Quo Vadis? • 2:54p, 8/6/25
Ok, because wikipedia makes it sound like Innocent II held a rush election involving only 6 cardinals on the night Pope Honorius II died. Anacletus II held an election and the vast majority of the cardinals elected him instead.
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