Quo Vadis? said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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747Ag said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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PabloSerna said:

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Are you confusing the actions by certain people who are also Catholic with Papal directives to all Catholics?

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No. I am pointing out that the Church had tools in 1096 to limit the violence and punish the perpetrators. They didn't use them. There were individual bishops who attempted to protect local Jews, which is noble of them, but they seemed completely unwilling to actually stop the mobs.

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Because antisemitism was an official part of Catholic dogma until 1965.

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lololol... ROFL even.

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Like the "pro perfidis Judaeis" (for the traitorous Jews) prayer being part of the Good Friday liturgy.

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What do you call it when God himself is sent personally as the fulfillment of a certain people's entire identity, and is put to death?

Secondly, we're praying for them. On our holiest and most sacred day of the year.

Do the Jews have any prayers for Catholics, in any of their liturgies?

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Jews don't believe they have to convert the world and don't believe non-Jews are eternally damned.

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Depends on which books you read doesn't it?

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Quo Vadis? said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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747Ag said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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PabloSerna said:

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Are you confusing the actions by certain people who are also Catholic with Papal directives to all Catholics?

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No. I am pointing out that the Church had tools in 1096 to limit the violence and punish the perpetrators. They didn't use them. There were individual bishops who attempted to protect local Jews, which is noble of them, but they seemed completely unwilling to actually stop the mobs.

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Because antisemitism was an official part of Catholic dogma until 1965.

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lololol... ROFL even.

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Like the "pro perfidis Judaeis" (for the traitorous Jews) prayer being part of the Good Friday liturgy.

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What do you call it when God himself is sent personally as the fulfillment of a certain people's entire identity, and is put to death?

Secondly, we're praying for them. On our holiest and most sacred day of the year.

Do the Jews have any prayers for Catholics, in any of their liturgies?

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Jews don't believe they have to convert the world and don't believe non-Jews are eternally damned.

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Depends on which books you read doesn't it?

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Please quote the book you're reading.

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The Babylonian Talmud; Rosh Hashanah and Gittin tracts to be exact. Especially pertinent since the Babylonian Talmud, written in the Sassanid empire, allowed Jews to freely speak their mind more so than the previous writings under Roman and Christian rule.

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Silent For Too Long said:

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I'm sorry, but saying it's "baked into the theology" is asinine. All the original Christians were jews.

Antisemitism is a bizarrely global and universally human condition. There was plenty of it in Rome before Christianity, and there's plenty of it in post-Chrisitian antitheist academia today, as has been become abundantly apparent recently.

Within Christianity specifically, there has been a quite a complex love/hate relationship from the very beginning. The Christian Bible has always started with The Torah, the Christian sects that tried to abandon The Torah are on the trash heap of history, and no other religion or worldview defends Judaism and Isreal more then Christians in the modern world.

You are simply attacking a straw man when you focus on the adversarial points of contact while ignoring the bigger picture.

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Sapper Redux said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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747Ag said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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PabloSerna said:

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Are you confusing the actions by certain people who are also Catholic with Papal directives to all Catholics?

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No. I am pointing out that the Church had tools in 1096 to limit the violence and punish the perpetrators. They didn't use them. There were individual bishops who attempted to protect local Jews, which is noble of them, but they seemed completely unwilling to actually stop the mobs.

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Because antisemitism was an official part of Catholic dogma until 1965.

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lololol... ROFL even.

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Like the "pro perfidis Judaeis" (for the traitorous Jews) prayer being part of the Good Friday liturgy.

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What do you call it when God himself is sent personally as the fulfillment of a certain people's entire identity, and is put to death?

Secondly, we're praying for them. On our holiest and most sacred day of the year.

Do the Jews have any prayers for Catholics, in any of their liturgies?

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Jews don't believe they have to convert the world and don't believe non-Jews are eternally damned.

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Depends on which books you read doesn't it?

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Please quote the book you're reading.

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The Babylonian Talmud; Rosh Hashanah and Gittin tracts to be exact. Especially pertinent since the Babylonian Talmud, written in the Sassanid empire, allowed Jews to freely speak their mind more so than the previous writings under Roman and Christian rule.

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Specifically quote what you're claiming. The Talmud, as has been extensively explained multiple times before, is not holy writ, it's a series of arguments and hypotheticals based around the Mishnah in which some arguments are accepted and others aren't.

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Sapper Redux said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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I'm sorry, but saying it's "baked into the theology" is asinine. All the original Christians were jews.

Antisemitism is a bizarrely global and universally human condition. There was plenty of it in Rome before Christianity, and there's plenty of it in post-Chrisitian antitheist academia today, as has been become abundantly apparent recently.

Within Christianity specifically, there has been a quite a complex love/hate relationship from the very beginning. The Christian Bible has always started with The Torah, the Christian sects that tried to abandon The Torah are on the trash heap of history, and no other religion or worldview defends Judaism and Isreal more then Christians in the modern world.

You are simply attacking a straw man when you focus on the adversarial points of contact while ignoring the bigger picture.

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It wasn't particularly complex after the second or third century. And it wasn't particularly complex during the Middle Ages. Jews theoretically had some level of protection but severely limited lives typically lived in poverty and squalor with ample violence attending them. The theological justifications for antisemitism and the doctrines of supersessionism were very early developlments in orthodox (small 'o') Christianity. As for the modern world, there's a significant amount of guilt for the death toll that the antisemitism engendered. But we still see quite a bit of old antisemitic canards in the western world even today.

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And it wasn't particularly complex during the Middle Ages. Jews theoretically had some level of protection but severely limited lives typically lived in poverty and squalor with ample violence attending them.

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From the pre-1955 missale... You go with one translation while we have a different one.

Let us pray also for the faithless Jews [perfidis Judaeis]: that Almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts; so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. Almighty and eternal God, who dost not exclude from Thy mercy even Jewish faithlessness [Judaicam perfidiam]: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. Amen.

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Silent For Too Long said:

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Antisemitism is a bizarrely global and universally human condition. There was plenty of it in Rome before Christianity, and there's plenty of it in post-Chrisitian antitheist academia today, as has been become abundantly apparent recently.

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Quote:

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It wasn't particularly complex after the second or third century. And it wasn't particularly complex during the Middle Ages.

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During the Middle Ages in Europe, the economic situations of Jews and Christians varied, and it's not accurate to say that Jews were universally poorer than Christians. In fact, the wealth and poverty levels within both groups spanned a wide range, similar to how it is in society today.

Here's a nuanced perspective on their economic roles and circumstances:

Early Middle Ages (8th-12th Century): In the early Middle Ages, many Jewish communities were quite prosperous, actively involved in trade and crafts. Jews migrating from the more developed Middle East brought valuable business knowledge and skills, excelling in professions like wine trade, which often required travel and connections. While the wealthiest people were usually Christians holding positions in government, military, or owning large estates, the majority of the Christian population consisted of land-leasing peasants who, in today's terms, were considered very poor. Compared to this peasant majority, many Jews were engaged in professions that provided them with a relatively better standard of living.

High and Late Middle Ages (12th-15th Century): As Europe advanced into the High and Late Middle Ages, the economic landscape shifted. Christian guilds became increasingly prominent in crafts and professions, often excluding Jews from participation. This pushed many Jews into professions like moneylending, which was prohibited for Christians by the Church. While some Jewish moneylenders achieved significant wealth, many others were involved in smaller-scale lending and faced considerable risks, including confiscation of their assets by rulers or hostility from debtors.

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Silent For Too Long said:

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The vast majority of everybody were little more then beggars in the middle ages.

You are making broad sweeping generalizations that you simply don't have the data to back up. It just fits a narrative you want to soap box on.

The fact is we know, for a fact, that it was explicitly the economic prosperity in jewish communities that was a prominent driver in antisemitism, particularly during relatively depressed times.

Do you have any actual data to back up your assertions that jews were more economically disadvantaged per capita relative to Christians?

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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Antisemitism is a bizarrely global and universally human condition. There was plenty of it in Rome before Christianity, and there's plenty of it in post-Chrisitian antitheist academia today, as has been become abundantly apparent recently.

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That is true. The Jews have always had their enemies. The Egyptians, Canaanites, Moabites, Philistines, Assyrians, and Babylonians in Biblical days. Haman from the book of Esther. The Greek Seleucids in the days of the Maccabees. The Alexandrian Riots.

But it must be acknowledged that many of the antisemites throughout history have been Christian or Muslim. Religions that both claim (in very simplified terms) to be the "true" Judaism that picked up where the genetic children of Israel went wrong.

So why, then, are there still Jews who practice Judaism as if Jesus and Muhammad never existed? For Christianity and Islam, that's a question that needs to be answered. And theologians have picked some very negative answers to that question. Which, as I see it, is the root of theological antisemitism.

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And regardless of his intentions, Luther's thinking on the Jewish people had a direct impact on history: The Nazis amplified Luther's anti-Semitism from the earliest days of the National Socialist movement. It helped in the creation of the heavily Nazified and racist faction of Deutsche Christen, or German Christians, within the German Lutheran church, but perhaps more significantly, partly enabled the culture of anti-Semitism that made the Holocaust possible.

One especially repugnant case is that of Martin Sasse, the Bishop of the Evangelical Church of Thuringia during Kristallnacht in 1938. He feted the pogroms and the mass destruction of synagogues and Jewish businesses, and even tied it explicitly to Luther himself; just days after what was in effect the beginning of the organized slaughter of the Jews, he distributed a pamphlet entitled Martin Luther on the Jews: Away with Them! in which he claimed the Nazis were acting as Christians in their violent anti-Semitism, and that this was precisely what Luther would have wanted.

Yes, there was also a powerful anti-Nazi movement within Lutheranism, and the sacrifice and even martyrdom of those pastors and laypeople must never be forgotten. The Confessing Church, for example, was formed in opposition to the regime's attempt to unify all German Protestants into a single pro-Nazi church. Leaders like Martin Niemoller and Heinrich Gruber were sent to concentration camps but survived; writer and activist Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was accused of being part of a plot to assassinate Adolf Hitler, did not.

But Luther was not unique in his Christian anti-Semitism. It's such a grotesquely paradoxical reaction, of course; Jesus and most of the founders of Christianity were Jewish, but many of those claiming to love Him have hated His race and people. St. John Chrysostom, a major influence on the Eastern Orthodox Church, was virulently anti-Semitic; in 1555, Pope Paul IV issued a bull removing the rights of the Jews and subjecting them to communal humiliation. The examples are, alas, legion. Christians deliberately expunged the Jewishness of their faith and thus distorted it and shamed the teachings and life of that 1st-century Jewish preacher from Galilee. It's a birth defect of the historic church, and it didn't take very long for early Christian leaders to join the cluband while Luther did not codify his hatreds into tangible church policy, he left a heritage of antagonism and hostility all the same.

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The Banned said:

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nortex97 said:

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Well, we can agree to disagree, based on many of his writings, I guess.

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Did you read this article? It is the perfect example of taking quotes out of context in order to reach a pre-determined conclusion.

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