https://thestateoftheology.com/

10andBOUNCE said:

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https://thestateoftheology.com/

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This survey is assuming Reformed/Calvinist theology is completely correct. I disagree. This is highlighted by the response to the question "Does God love all people he created equally".

So I actually think the people conducting the survey are wrong on some questions and the majority of the respondents that they think are incorrect are correct.

This show that a lot of Evangelicals are not Calvinists.

I anticipated you poking at that question. I think for the sake of avoiding the same debate, we can disregard that one.

Happy to hear how God loved Jacob and Esau equally on another thread.

While the survey has a reformed slant I am more distressed by the basics:

• 26% disagree that God is perfect
• 19% disagree with the basics of the Trinity
• 65% agree that God accepts the worship of all religions
• etc.

Quote:

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Jesus was a great teacher, but he was not God.

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A whopping 60% either agree or are not sure.

Quote:

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The Holy Spirit can tell me to do something which is forbidden in the Bible.

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34% say agree or are unsure.

Quote:

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Modern science disproves the Bible.

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49% either agree or are not sure.

Quote:

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Abortion is a sin.

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51% either disagree or are not sure.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Quote:

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Jesus was a great teacher, but he was not God.

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A whopping 60% either agree or are not sure.

Quote:

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The Holy Spirit can tell me to do something which is forbidden in the Bible.

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34% say agree or are unsure.

Quote:

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Modern science disproves the Bible.

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49% either agree or are not sure.

Quote:

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Abortion is a sin.

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51% either disagree or are not sure.

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I will agree with you those answers are troubling. In my opinion, putting that question "Does God love all people the same" was unnecessary and detracted from the validity of the survey. They have to know that a lot of Evangelicals are not Calvinists.

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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https://thestateoftheology.com/

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This survey is assuming Reformed/Calvinist theology is completely correct. I disagree. This is highlighted by the response to the question "Does God love all people he created equally".

So I actually think the people conducting the survey are wrong on some questions and the majority of the respondents that they think are incorrect are correct.

This show that a lot of Evangelicals are not Calvinists.

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There is a breakdown by affiliation under the Data Explorer tab. 40% of respondents are listed as "other" which definitely gives me some questions about their religiosity.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Quote:

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The Holy Spirit can tell me to do something which is forbidden in the Bible.

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34% say agree or are unsure.

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ahem

" Happy to hear how God loved Jacob and Esau equally on another thread."

Why? This is all about interpretation of scripture don't you think? For some, the question about God loving all people equally and then reading that God "hated" Esau is a perfect point to discuss the truth.

10andBOUNCE said:

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I anticipated you poking at that question. I think for the sake of avoiding the same debate, we can disregard that one.

Happy to hear how God loved Jacob and Esau equally on another thread.

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That drive by posting about Esau and Isaac is referencing a 1000 years of descendants. Esau's line fell away. Isaac's line at least had some faithful. This is just terrible biblical understanding.

Interesting that Esau's line merely "fell away." Sure reads throughout Genesis that Jacob was the chosen line from the beginning.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Interesting that Esau's line merely "fell away." Sure reads throughout Genesis that Jacob was the chosen line from the beginning.

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Agree. That does not mean Esau was hell bound. Scripture says he was blessed also. There is a huge difference to not being chosen and being damned to ECT hell.

Well, if God saves and loves only the "elect" it is weird how they all seem to live near other. And few or none elect in non Christian countries.

GaryClare said:

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dermdoc said:

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Well, if God saves and loves only the "elect" it is weird how they all seem to live near other. And few or none elect in non Christian countries.

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I would love to understand your post better - would you elaborate in more detail?

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I am saying that God's elect appear to only be in Christian countries. If free will is not involved, why are there not elect in Muslim countries?

10andBOUNCE said:

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Interesting that Esau's line merely "fell away." Sure reads throughout Genesis that Jacob was the chosen line from the beginning.

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Esau's line - his people - were Edom. They rebelled against Israel and were destroyed for it.

This is no more an indictment of Esau personally than the vast majority of Jacob's line falling away is an indictment of Jacob personally.

All of the tribes of Israel except Judah, Benjamin, and Levi were scattered for their rebellion and faithlessness. And not only by number, but the tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel were much more populous, especially those of Joseph.

Your statement "from the beginning" actually starts after Jacob's faithfulness. But Esau had the birthright "from the beginning" and the scriptures imply he didn't take it seriously, willing to trade it over a meal. Had Esau been faithful, would the line and ultimately Christ have come from him? God knows; we do not.

The lesson here isn't about Esau or Jacob as people - both were faithful. It is that our faithfulness to God plays out in faithfulness to the leaders He puts in place. You cannot have been a faithful Israelite in the desert and been disloyal to Moses. You couldn't be a faithful Israelite and disloyal to the Judahite king. You couldn't be faithful to God as an Edomite and make war against Judah. And you can't be a faithful Jew and be disloyal to the Messiah and King, Jesus.

That concept is a big part of what St Paul writes about - that our faithfulness to God requires faithfulness to the singular heir, the singular seed, of Abraham - Jesus - to whom all of the promises are made, who inherits all of it. As the heir, He distributes to His brothers (just like Jacob was the heir) and so the inheritance for everyone else comes through the one Heir. We, then, are co-heirs: Christ inherits all things, and shares with those who are faithful to Him. This is no different than any of the examples above: Jacob inherits the promises, and shares with his brother.

St Paul simply wasn't writing with individual eternal salvation or condemnation in view. By a casual reading of the scriptures, Esau behaves as the more righteous of the two.

Zobel said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Interesting that Esau's line merely "fell away." Sure reads throughout Genesis that Jacob was the chosen line from the beginning.

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Your statement "from the beginning" actually starts after Jacob's faithfulness. But Esau had the birthright "from the beginning" and the scriptures imply he didn't take it seriously, willing to trade it over a meal. Had Esau been faithful, would the line and ultimately Christ have come from him? God knows; we do not.

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Thanks for your thoughts, I just read it, interpret it, and am taught differently. From before these two boys were born, Jacob was chosen.

Genesis 25:22-23 (Before the birth of the twins)
22 The children struggled together within her, and she said, "If it is thus, why is this happening to me?" So she went to inquire of the Lord. 23 And the Lord said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you shall be divided;
the one shall be stronger than the other,
the older shall serve the younger."

The very idea that God chose Jacob, despite his deceitful nature, shows it was nothing that he (Jacob) earned, but God's sovereign choice to have Jacob acquire the Patriarchal blessing. It wasn't until Jacob wrestled with God that we finally have an example of honestly from him, where he tells the Angel his real name.

Quote:

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The very idea that God chose Jacob, despite his deceitful nature, shows it was nothing that he (Jacob) earned, but God's sovereign choice to have Jacob acquire the Patriarchal blessing.

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And the scriptures show the opposite. Why did Jacob inherit the promises? Against his will? Or because he was faithful? Why did Esau miss out? Because God made him, or because he spurned it?

What does St Paul say? In Hebrews 11 he says the faithful did those things by faith. And in fact in Hebrews 12 he says Esau lost his birthright through is own foolish actions, and couldn't recover it in spite of his repentance.

Nobody said anything about earned. You're taking ideas from 16 centuries after St Paul put pen to paper (or actually Tertius, I should say) and many more centuries than that from Moses and reading them backward.

All of this is beside the point though. A fantastic heuristic for the scriptures is to assume that St Paul interprets and uses the Old Testament correctly. In Romans when speaking of Esau being hated St Paul is quoting the scriptures, and those scriptures are literally and explicitly about Edom, not Esau the person. Genesis 36:8 says "Esau is Edom".

If you read "Esau have I hated" and think that is talking about Esau the person, you are just wrong. Any theology derived from that opinion is factually incorrect in its basics, and should be rejected out of hand.

Zobel said:

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Quote:

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The very idea that God chose Jacob, despite his deceitful nature, shows it was nothing that he (Jacob) earned, but God's sovereign choice to have Jacob acquire the Patriarchal blessing.

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All of this is beside the point though. A fantastic heuristic for the scriptures is to assume that St Paul interprets and uses the Old Testament correctly. In Romans when speaking of Esau being hated St Paul is quoting the scriptures, and those scriptures are literally and explicitly about Edom, not Esau the person. Genesis 36:8 says "Esau is Edom".

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Why can it not represent both Esau the person and Edom the peoples?

Because it is a word for word quote of scripture, and that passage is not about Esau the person.

Quote:

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The oracle of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi.

"I have loved you," says the Lord.

But you say, "How have you loved us?"

"Is not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the Lord. "Yet I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert."

If Edom says, "We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins," the Lord of hosts says, "They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called 'the wicked country,' and 'the people with whom the Lord is angry forever.'"

Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, "Great is the Lord beyond the border of Israel!"

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What's he talking about here?

Quote:

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In his (Jehoram's) days Edom revolted from the rule of Judah and set up a king of their own. Then Joram passed over to Zair with all his chariots and rose by night, and he and his chariot commanders struck the Edomites who had surrounded him, but his army fled home. So Edom revolted from the rule of Judah to this day.

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The prophets say

Quote:

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"Thus says the Lord God: Because Edom acted revengefully against the house of Judah and has grievously offended in taking vengeance on them, therefore thus says the Lord God, I will stretch out my hand against Edom and cut off from it man and beast. And I will make it desolate; from Teman even to Dedan they shall fall by the sword. And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel, and they shall do in Edom according to my anger and according to my wrath, and they shall know my vengeance, declares the Lord God.

---

Here's another place:

Quote:

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Thus says the Lord God concerning Edom:

We have heard a report from the Lord, and a messenger has been sent among the nations: "Rise up! Let us rise against her for battle!" Behold, I will make you small among the nations; you shall be utterly despised. The pride of your heart has deceived you, you who live in the clefts of the rock, in your lofty dwelling, who say in your heart, "Who will bring me down to the ground?" Though you soar aloft like the eagle, though your nest is set among the stars, from there I will bring you down, declares the Lord.

If thieves came to you, if plunderers came by night- how you have been destroyed!- would they not steal only enough for themselves? If grape gatherers came to you, would they not leave gleanings? How Esau has been pillaged, his treasures sought out! All your allies have driven you to your border; those at peace with you have deceived you; they have prevailed against you; those who eat your bread have set a trap beneath you- you have no understanding.

Will I not on that day, declares the Lord, destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of Mount Esau? And your mighty men shall be dismayed, O Teman, so that every man from Mount Esau will be cut off by slaughter.

Because of the violence done to your brother Jacob, shame shall cover you, and you shall be cut off forever. On the day that you stood aloof, on the day that strangers carried off his wealth and foreigners entered his gates and cast lots for Jerusalem, you were like one of them. But do not gloat over the day of your brother
in the day of his misfortune; do not rejoice over the people of Judah in the day of their ruin; do not boast
in the day of distress. Do not enter the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; do not gloat over his disaster in the day of his calamity; do not loot his wealth in the day of his calamity. Do not stand at the crossroads to cut off his fugitives; do not hand over his survivors in the day of distress.

For the day of the Lord is near upon all the nations. As you have done, it shall be done to you; your deeds shall return on your own head. For as you have drunk on my holy mountain, so all the nations shall drink continually; they shall drink and swallow, and shall be as though they had never been. But in Mount Zion there shall be those who escape, and it shall be holy, and the house of Jacob shall possess their own possessions. The house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau stubble; they shall burn them and consume them, and there shall be no survivor for the house of Esau, for the Lord has spoken.

Those of the Negeb shall possess Mount Esau, and those of the Shephelah shall possess the land of the Philistines; they shall possess the land of Ephraim and the land of Samaria, and Benjamin shall possess Gilead. The exiles of this host of the people of Israel shall possess the land of the Canaanites as far as Zarephath, and the exiles of Jerusalem who are in Sepharad shall possess the cities of the Negeb. Saviors shall go up to Mount Zion to rule Mount Esau, and the kingdom shall be the Lord's.

---

And another place

Quote:

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For three transgressions of Edom, and for four, I will not revoke the punishment, because he pursued his brother with the sword and cast off all pity, and his anger tore perpetually, and he kept his wrath forever. So I will send a fire upon Teman, and it shall devour the strongholds of Bozrah.

---

And another...

Quote:

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Concerning Edom.

Thus says the Lord of hosts:

"Is wisdom no more in Teman? Has counsel perished from the prudent? Has their wisdom vanished? Flee, turn back, dwell in the depths, O inhabitants of Dedan! For I will bring the calamity of Esau upon him, the time when I punish him. If grape gatherers came to you, would they not leave gleanings? If thieves came by night, would they not destroy only enough for themselves? But I have stripped Esau bare; I have uncovered his hiding places, and he is not able to conceal himself. His children are destroyed, and his brothers, and his neighbors; and he is no more. Leave your fatherless children; I will keep them alive; and let your widows trust in me."

For thus says the Lord: "If those who did not deserve to drink the cup must drink it, will you go unpunished? You shall not go unpunished, but you must drink. For I have sworn by myself, declares the Lord, that Bozrah shall become a horror, a taunt, a waste, and a curse, and all her cities shall be perpetual wastes."

I have heard a message from the Lord, and an envoy has been sent among the nations: "Gather yourselves together and come against her, and rise up for battle! For behold, I will make you small among the nations,
despised among mankind. The horror you inspire has deceived you, and the pride of your heart, you who live in the clefts of the rock, who hold the height of the hill. Though you make your nest as high as the eagle's,
I will bring you down from there, declares the Lord.

"Edom shall become a horror. Everyone who passes by it will be horrified and will hiss because of all its disasters. As when Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring cities were overthrown, says the Lord, no man shall dwell there, no man shall sojourn in her. Behold, like a lion coming up from the jungle of the Jordan against a perennial pasture, I will suddenly make him run away from her. And I will appoint over her whomever I choose. For who is like me? Who will summon me? What shepherd can stand before me? Therefore hear the plan that the Lord has made against Edom and the purposes that he has formed against the inhabitants of Teman: Even the little ones of the flock shall be dragged away. Surely their fold shall be appalled at their fate. At the sound of their fall the earth shall tremble; the sound of their cry shall be heard at the Red Sea. Behold, one shall mount up and fly swiftly like an eagle and spread his wings against Bozrah, and the heart of the warriors of Edom shall be in that day like the heart of a woman in her birth pains."

---

And another

Quote:

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Remember, O Lord, against the Edomites the day of Jerusalem, how they said, "Lay it bare, lay it bare, down to its foundations!"

---

And another

Quote:

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Egypt shall become a desolation and Edom a desolate wilderness, for the violence done to the people of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

---

None of these passages are about Esau the person, any more than mentions of Judah are about Judah the son of Jacob.

powerbelly said:

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While the survey has a reformed slant I am more distressed by the basics:

• 26% disagree that God is perfect
• 19% disagree with the basics of the Trinity
• 65% agree that God accepts the worship of all religions
• etc.

---

Strikes me that anyone who believes in penal substitutionary atonement disagrees with the basics or the Trinity.

Zobel said:

---

Because it is a word for word quote of scripture, and that passage is not about Esau the person.

Quote:

---

The oracle of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi.

"I have loved you," says the Lord.

But you say, "How have you loved us?"

"Is not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the Lord. "Yet I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert."

If Edom says, "We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins," the Lord of hosts says, "They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called 'the wicked country,' and 'the people with whom the Lord is angry forever.'"

Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, "Great is the Lord beyond the border of Israel!"

---

What's he talking about here?

Quote:

---

In his (Jehoram's) days Edom revolted from the rule of Judah and set up a king of their own. Then Joram passed over to Zair with all his chariots and rose by night, and he and his chariot commanders struck the Edomites who had surrounded him, but his army fled home. So Edom revolted from the rule of Judah to this day.

---

The prophets say

Quote:

---

"Thus says the Lord God: Because Edom acted revengefully against the house of Judah and has grievously offended in taking vengeance on them, therefore thus says the Lord God, I will stretch out my hand against Edom and cut off from it man and beast. And I will make it desolate; from Teman even to Dedan they shall fall by the sword. And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel, and they shall do in Edom according to my anger and according to my wrath, and they shall know my vengeance, declares the Lord God.

---

Here's another place:

Quote:

---

Thus says the Lord God concerning Edom:

We have heard a report from the Lord, and a messenger has been sent among the nations: "Rise up! Let us rise against her for battle!" Behold, I will make you small among the nations; you shall be utterly despised. The pride of your heart has deceived you, you who live in the clefts of the rock, in your lofty dwelling, who say in your heart, "Who will bring me down to the ground?" Though you soar aloft like the eagle, though your nest is set among the stars, from there I will bring you down, declares the Lord.

If thieves came to you, if plunderers came by night- how you have been destroyed!- would they not steal only enough for themselves? If grape gatherers came to you, would they not leave gleanings? How Esau has been pillaged, his treasures sought out! All your allies have driven you to your border; those at peace with you have deceived you; they have prevailed against you; those who eat your bread have set a trap beneath you- you have no understanding.

Will I not on that day, declares the Lord, destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of Mount Esau? And your mighty men shall be dismayed, O Teman, so that every man from Mount Esau will be cut off by slaughter.

Because of the violence done to your brother Jacob, shame shall cover you, and you shall be cut off forever. On the day that you stood aloof, on the day that strangers carried off his wealth and foreigners entered his gates and cast lots for Jerusalem, you were like one of them. But do not gloat over the day of your brother
in the day of his misfortune; do not rejoice over the people of Judah in the day of their ruin; do not boast
in the day of distress. Do not enter the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; do not gloat over his disaster in the day of his calamity; do not loot his wealth in the day of his calamity. Do not stand at the crossroads to cut off his fugitives; do not hand over his survivors in the day of distress.

For the day of the Lord is near upon all the nations. As you have done, it shall be done to you; your deeds shall return on your own head. For as you have drunk on my holy mountain, so all the nations shall drink continually; they shall drink and swallow, and shall be as though they had never been. But in Mount Zion there shall be those who escape, and it shall be holy, and the house of Jacob shall possess their own possessions. The house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau stubble; they shall burn them and consume them, and there shall be no survivor for the house of Esau, for the Lord has spoken.

Those of the Negeb shall possess Mount Esau, and those of the Shephelah shall possess the land of the Philistines; they shall possess the land of Ephraim and the land of Samaria, and Benjamin shall possess Gilead. The exiles of this host of the people of Israel shall possess the land of the Canaanites as far as Zarephath, and the exiles of Jerusalem who are in Sepharad shall possess the cities of the Negeb. Saviors shall go up to Mount Zion to rule Mount Esau, and the kingdom shall be the Lord's.

---

And another place

Quote:

---

For three transgressions of Edom, and for four, I will not revoke the punishment, because he pursued his brother with the sword and cast off all pity, and his anger tore perpetually, and he kept his wrath forever. So I will send a fire upon Teman, and it shall devour the strongholds of Bozrah.

---

And another...

Quote:

---

Concerning Edom.

Thus says the Lord of hosts:

"Is wisdom no more in Teman? Has counsel perished from the prudent? Has their wisdom vanished? Flee, turn back, dwell in the depths, O inhabitants of Dedan! For I will bring the calamity of Esau upon him, the time when I punish him. If grape gatherers came to you, would they not leave gleanings? If thieves came by night, would they not destroy only enough for themselves? But I have stripped Esau bare; I have uncovered his hiding places, and he is not able to conceal himself. His children are destroyed, and his brothers, and his neighbors; and he is no more. Leave your fatherless children; I will keep them alive; and let your widows trust in me."

For thus says the Lord: "If those who did not deserve to drink the cup must drink it, will you go unpunished? You shall not go unpunished, but you must drink. For I have sworn by myself, declares the Lord, that Bozrah shall become a horror, a taunt, a waste, and a curse, and all her cities shall be perpetual wastes."

I have heard a message from the Lord, and an envoy has been sent among the nations: "Gather yourselves together and come against her, and rise up for battle! For behold, I will make you small among the nations,
despised among mankind. The horror you inspire has deceived you, and the pride of your heart, you who live in the clefts of the rock, who hold the height of the hill. Though you make your nest as high as the eagle's,
I will bring you down from there, declares the Lord.

"Edom shall become a horror. Everyone who passes by it will be horrified and will hiss because of all its disasters. As when Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring cities were overthrown, says the Lord, no man shall dwell there, no man shall sojourn in her. Behold, like a lion coming up from the jungle of the Jordan against a perennial pasture, I will suddenly make him run away from her. And I will appoint over her whomever I choose. For who is like me? Who will summon me? What shepherd can stand before me? Therefore hear the plan that the Lord has made against Edom and the purposes that he has formed against the inhabitants of Teman: Even the little ones of the flock shall be dragged away. Surely their fold shall be appalled at their fate. At the sound of their fall the earth shall tremble; the sound of their cry shall be heard at the Red Sea. Behold, one shall mount up and fly swiftly like an eagle and spread his wings against Bozrah, and the heart of the warriors of Edom shall be in that day like the heart of a woman in her birth pains."

---

And another

Quote:

---

Remember, O Lord, against the Edomites the day of Jerusalem, how they said, "Lay it bare, lay it bare, down to its foundations!"

---

And another

Quote:

---

Egypt shall become a desolation and Edom a desolate wilderness, for the violence done to the people of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

---

None of these passages are about Esau the person, any more than mentions of Judah are about Judah the son of Jacob.

---

To say nothing of 1 Timothy 2:3-4:

This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4, RSV-CE)

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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Zobel said:

---

Because it is a word for word quote of scripture, and that passage is not about Esau the person.

Quote:

---

The oracle of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi.

"I have loved you," says the Lord.

But you say, "How have you loved us?"

"Is not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the Lord. "Yet I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert."

If Edom says, "We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins," the Lord of hosts says, "They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called 'the wicked country,' and 'the people with whom the Lord is angry forever.'"

Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, "Great is the Lord beyond the border of Israel!"

---

What's he talking about here?

Quote:

---

In his (Jehoram's) days Edom revolted from the rule of Judah and set up a king of their own. Then Joram passed over to Zair with all his chariots and rose by night, and he and his chariot commanders struck the Edomites who had surrounded him, but his army fled home. So Edom revolted from the rule of Judah to this day.

---

The prophets say

Quote:

---

"Thus says the Lord God: Because Edom acted revengefully against the house of Judah and has grievously offended in taking vengeance on them, therefore thus says the Lord God, I will stretch out my hand against Edom and cut off from it man and beast. And I will make it desolate; from Teman even to Dedan they shall fall by the sword. And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel, and they shall do in Edom according to my anger and according to my wrath, and they shall know my vengeance, declares the Lord God.

---

Here's another place:

Quote:

---

Thus says the Lord God concerning Edom:

We have heard a report from the Lord, and a messenger has been sent among the nations: "Rise up! Let us rise against her for battle!" Behold, I will make you small among the nations; you shall be utterly despised. The pride of your heart has deceived you, you who live in the clefts of the rock, in your lofty dwelling, who say in your heart, "Who will bring me down to the ground?" Though you soar aloft like the eagle, though your nest is set among the stars, from there I will bring you down, declares the Lord.

If thieves came to you, if plunderers came by night- how you have been destroyed!- would they not steal only enough for themselves? If grape gatherers came to you, would they not leave gleanings? How Esau has been pillaged, his treasures sought out! All your allies have driven you to your border; those at peace with you have deceived you; they have prevailed against you; those who eat your bread have set a trap beneath you- you have no understanding.

Will I not on that day, declares the Lord, destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of Mount Esau? And your mighty men shall be dismayed, O Teman, so that every man from Mount Esau will be cut off by slaughter.

Because of the violence done to your brother Jacob, shame shall cover you, and you shall be cut off forever. On the day that you stood aloof, on the day that strangers carried off his wealth and foreigners entered his gates and cast lots for Jerusalem, you were like one of them. But do not gloat over the day of your brother
in the day of his misfortune; do not rejoice over the people of Judah in the day of their ruin; do not boast
in the day of distress. Do not enter the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; do not gloat over his disaster in the day of his calamity; do not loot his wealth in the day of his calamity. Do not stand at the crossroads to cut off his fugitives; do not hand over his survivors in the day of distress.

For the day of the Lord is near upon all the nations. As you have done, it shall be done to you; your deeds shall return on your own head. For as you have drunk on my holy mountain, so all the nations shall drink continually; they shall drink and swallow, and shall be as though they had never been. But in Mount Zion there shall be those who escape, and it shall be holy, and the house of Jacob shall possess their own possessions. The house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau stubble; they shall burn them and consume them, and there shall be no survivor for the house of Esau, for the Lord has spoken.

Those of the Negeb shall possess Mount Esau, and those of the Shephelah shall possess the land of the Philistines; they shall possess the land of Ephraim and the land of Samaria, and Benjamin shall possess Gilead. The exiles of this host of the people of Israel shall possess the land of the Canaanites as far as Zarephath, and the exiles of Jerusalem who are in Sepharad shall possess the cities of the Negeb. Saviors shall go up to Mount Zion to rule Mount Esau, and the kingdom shall be the Lord's.

---

And another place

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For three transgressions of Edom, and for four, I will not revoke the punishment, because he pursued his brother with the sword and cast off all pity, and his anger tore perpetually, and he kept his wrath forever. So I will send a fire upon Teman, and it shall devour the strongholds of Bozrah.

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And another...

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Concerning Edom.

Thus says the Lord of hosts:

"Is wisdom no more in Teman? Has counsel perished from the prudent? Has their wisdom vanished? Flee, turn back, dwell in the depths, O inhabitants of Dedan! For I will bring the calamity of Esau upon him, the time when I punish him. If grape gatherers came to you, would they not leave gleanings? If thieves came by night, would they not destroy only enough for themselves? But I have stripped Esau bare; I have uncovered his hiding places, and he is not able to conceal himself. His children are destroyed, and his brothers, and his neighbors; and he is no more. Leave your fatherless children; I will keep them alive; and let your widows trust in me."

For thus says the Lord: "If those who did not deserve to drink the cup must drink it, will you go unpunished? You shall not go unpunished, but you must drink. For I have sworn by myself, declares the Lord, that Bozrah shall become a horror, a taunt, a waste, and a curse, and all her cities shall be perpetual wastes."

I have heard a message from the Lord, and an envoy has been sent among the nations: "Gather yourselves together and come against her, and rise up for battle! For behold, I will make you small among the nations,
despised among mankind. The horror you inspire has deceived you, and the pride of your heart, you who live in the clefts of the rock, who hold the height of the hill. Though you make your nest as high as the eagle's,
I will bring you down from there, declares the Lord.

"Edom shall become a horror. Everyone who passes by it will be horrified and will hiss because of all its disasters. As when Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring cities were overthrown, says the Lord, no man shall dwell there, no man shall sojourn in her. Behold, like a lion coming up from the jungle of the Jordan against a perennial pasture, I will suddenly make him run away from her. And I will appoint over her whomever I choose. For who is like me? Who will summon me? What shepherd can stand before me? Therefore hear the plan that the Lord has made against Edom and the purposes that he has formed against the inhabitants of Teman: Even the little ones of the flock shall be dragged away. Surely their fold shall be appalled at their fate. At the sound of their fall the earth shall tremble; the sound of their cry shall be heard at the Red Sea. Behold, one shall mount up and fly swiftly like an eagle and spread his wings against Bozrah, and the heart of the warriors of Edom shall be in that day like the heart of a woman in her birth pains."

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Remember, O Lord, against the Edomites the day of Jerusalem, how they said, "Lay it bare, lay it bare, down to its foundations!"

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Egypt shall become a desolation and Edom a desolate wilderness, for the violence done to the people of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

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None of these passages are about Esau the person, any more than mentions of Judah are about Judah the son of Jacob.

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To say nothing of 1 Timothy 2:3-4:

This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4, RSV-CE)

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Well stated and agree.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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powerbelly said:

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While the survey has a reformed slant I am more distressed by the basics:

• 26% disagree that God is perfect
• 19% disagree with the basics of the Trinity
• 65% agree that God accepts the worship of all religions
• etc.

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Strikes me that anyone who believes in penal substitutionary atonement disagrees with the basics or the Trinity.

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I have never thought of it that way but I agree.

I would not take any of those passages you provided to be specifically about Esau the person since they are focused on Edom.

We'll have to agree to disagree on Esau being symbolic only in the account written, like I mentioned in Genesis 25.

St Paul quotes the first one in Romans. That's the point. He quotes Malachi, not Genesis. "Esau I have hated" is in Malachi about the destruction of Edom, not Genesis.

10andBOUNCE said:

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I would not take any of those passages you provided to be specifically about Esau the person since they are focused on Edom.

We'll have to agree to disagree on Esau being symbolic only in the account written, like I mentioned in Genesis 25.

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Curious as to whether Reformed teaching is that Esau was eternally damned? Thanks.

Thanks again for your thoughts. I understand what you are saying and pointing to, but I don't see how Paul quoting Malachi (which I assume must be quoting Genesis) means "Esau" is symbolic only of the Edomites.

The reference to Genesis 36: 1 is just an introduction to Esau's genealogy, which is what Edom is - Esau's lineage.

Again, the patriarchal blessing was specifically allocated to Jacob the person as well as Israel the nation, which was fathered from Jacob.

At the end of the day, we are still dealing with God's choosing of one person or nation over the other. God's love for one and hatred of the other.

Reformed folk don't really sit around musing about who was damned and who wasn't, sorry to break it to you.

Hebrews 12:15-17
15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

I haven't spent much time at all considering Esau's eternal fate. Seems to me he he would be classified as the part of the reprobate, left to his own sinful nature without God's intervention.

How would you interpret this "found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears"?

10andBOUNCE said:

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Reformed folk don't really sit around musing about who was damned and who wasn't, sorry to break it to you.

Hebrews 12:15-17
15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

I haven't spent much time at all considering Esau's eternal fate. Seems to me he he would be classified as the part of the reprobate, left to his own sinful nature without God's intervention.

How would you interpret this "found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears"?

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I think that means he couldn't get his birth right back even with changing his mind. Do you believe God blessed Esau?

And as far as Reformed people not thinking about who is damned or not, their pastors sure seem to be. But we have discussed that before and we will agree to disagree if "turn or burn" theology is Biblical or not.

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Thanks again for your thoughts. I understand what you are saying and pointing to, but I don't see how Paul quoting Malachi (which I assume must be quoting Genesis) means "Esau" is symbolic only of the Edomites.

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Malachi is not quoting Genesis. I put the scripture up there, it is Malachi 1, and it is a prophecy about Edom. Like a great many of the prophecies about Edom, they are referred to symbolically through the name of their patriarch - which is extremely common in the prophetic books for other nations too.

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Again, the patriarchal blessing was specifically allocated to Jacob the person as well as Israel the nation, which was fathered from Jacob.

At the end of the day, we are still dealing with God's choosing of one person or nation over the other. God's love for one and hatred of the other.

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Ok but you're all over the map now. You said "Happy to hear how God loved Jacob and Esau equally on another thread." Then you want to talk about lines, and you talk about Romans. The problem is whether God loved Jacob and Esau equally as people isn't in any way related to what happens to their families. The God of the scriptures is very clear that he does not judge people for their fathers' sins, but each is judged for his own sin. He says that explicitly. So first, we need to say - why do you think God loves Esau less? And if you point to Romans, you should first know that is a quote of Malachi 1. If you read Malachi 1, you see that it isn't about Esau the person. If you tell me, "God hated Edom" I will agree. If you say "...because God hated Esau" or "...because God loved Esau less than Jacob" I will not.

If you ask - "Why did God hate Edom?" I will point to the historical narratives and their corresponding prophecies: because Edom betrayed Judah, rebelled against them, and attacked them. They made themselves enemies of the people of God. But this does not follow from Jacob inheriting the promises over Esau.

This whole idea of God choosing one over the other is a false binary. There is no reason that because the line of Jacob inherits the promises that Edom must fall away. Does that mean that because God chose Judah that Benjamin must fall away? Even further, Esau did inherit. He inherited a portion of the land promised to Abraham, and God blessed him and made an entire nation from him - Edom. And when Israel is going into the land, God tells them not to take a foot of land from their brothers the Edomites in Seir. The Edomites were loved and inherited for Esau's sake AND hated for their sin and faithlessness to the heir of God's promises.

The promises to Abraham go through Isaac, then Jacob, then Judah. Does that mean God hated Joseph? Or God loved Joseph less than Judah? Or God chose Judah over Joseph? No reading of the Genesis narrative supports this. The only way you get there is from a flatly incorrect reading of St Paul in Romans, which requires ignorance of Malachi 1 (and all of the other places where Esau is used as a eponym for Edom).

Even further, God didn't love one nation over another. He didn't say, man of all the nations these Israelites are the best most loyal faithful people, I love them the most. Have ya read the OT? Instead God says, I am going to make a new nation - and jeez these guys are the worst. Moses has to talk him down from wiping them all out and starting over with his kids, with Moses as a new Abraham. Most of Israel is similarly destroyed - does God hate Jacob?

So what is St Paul talking about in Romans? He's answering the rhetorical question of whether the dissolution of the Norther Kingdom meant God's promises to Israel had in some way failed. He says this isn't true, but points out that there are both children according to the flesh, and children according to the promise, and the children of the promise are the true offspring. In other words, the failures of some of the sons of Jacob doesn't mean God's promises to Jacob are false. We can extend this to say: the failures of the sons of Edom doesn't mean God's blessings to Esau are hatred. But to take it further, St Paul says - just to show you that none of God's amazing work of salvation can be ruined by faithless people - Esau's role and Jacob's role, and their descendants, was prophesied before their birth.

The person he's rhetorically dialoguing with says - well, how can that be just? If Esau, or Ishmael, or Joseph hadn't done anything yet, how is God just in denying them the promises? He raises a few examples to answer. First, the Lord who is sovereign allowed Pharaoh to be powerful even though he was evil - he was blessed by God who is merciful and loving even to disobedient humans. But in his evil, Pharaoh brought judgment on himself, and God used him as an example to judge the gods of Egypt (of which Pharaoh was one), and through that judgment He had His name proclaimed among all the nations, for the salvation of many.

Next he mentions the potter analogy from Jeremiah. Yahweh shapes nations like a potter shapes clay, and if a nation is evil he breaks it down and re-shapes it. God as a potter took these vessels of wrath and used the judgment of their faithlessness to prepare vessels of mercy which is both times Israel; the first, then the renewed. God's patience with these vessels of wrath is precisely for His mercy to be shown to the whole world, including the gentiles, through His people Israel. Through God's wrath on Israel, God's mercy will be shown to both Israel and the gentiles.

Then he has an aside where he talks over his love for his fellow Jews, for them to learn that it is not about blood, but about faithfulness. But he notes - Israel has always been a disobedient and contrary people.

In the end, he poses - does the fact that many of the Jews don't believe in Jesus mean that God, in the end, has rejected them completely? And he says no, there is always a faithful remnant. And even further, that by the faithlessness of Israel, they were scattered into the gentiles. Their "stumbling" as he puts it wasn't in order for them to fall, but to bring salvation to the gentiles. "Their failure means riches for the gentiles". All the way back to the beginning, the failure of Israel is part of the plan, over against meaning God's plan has failed!

Finally he asks the gentiles in the Roman church specifically - if the faithlessness and rejection of some of Israel was in order to save the world, you need to understand where you fit in. Here he uses the analogy of the olive tree, where God allows the unfaithful branches to grow in order to prune them, to then make room for the wild, faithful branches be grafted in. But these faithful were coming from all nations, including the ones that the faithless tribes were dispersed into. And so, in the end All Israel (even the lost tribes) is saved. And this ongoing until Israel is filled up with "the fullness of the gentiles" - the whole world. Eventually God inherits all people, and the faithful people of God come from all nations. St Paul warns the gentile Christians that even though the Israelites were broken off for faithlessness, they can be grafted in much easier than the gentiles, because they are by nature part of the tree. And that if the native branches can be broken off for faithlessness, so can the grafted in wild branches - so stay faithful! And praise God for this amazing mystery revealed to us to save the whole world through both faithful and unfaithful people!

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Does this mean God hated Esau? He talks about the failures of faithfulness in both Edom and Israel. Is ANY of that section about individual people going to heaven or hell? If we look at where St Paul starts and ends, is any of this about individual predestination or anything like that? In no way. Does it deny free will? In no way. All it says is that God's will can't be thwarted by faithless people. It doesn't mean His will isn't fulfilled through faithful people. And both of those are choices individuals make. Even further, that whole concept is really tangential to what he's saying, which is a whole lot more about God's grand providence for mankind at a cosmic scale.