A discussion on violence and the evolution of law enforcement

1,783 Views | 21 Replies | Last: 22 days ago by Backyard Gator
BenFiasco14
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This is sort of a weird topic I've been thinking about which may be more of an R&P post, but lots of cross traffic and violence of course has always had to do a lot with politics.

For context, I'm reading Blood Meridian right now, and watched American Primeval on Netflix earlier this year. Different parts of the country, but both 19th century westerns which highlight the absolute brutality of the American frontier.

It's shocking to read and watch. The idea that you were just never safe. Guy you saw on the street? He may shoot you in broad daylight. Or if you're a woman forbid you look at someone funny next thing you know you're brutally raped and attacked. Gangs ran rampant in full contravention of the law, more or less in open warfare with law enforcement.

This is a part of our history. The American frontier and the Wild West is unique to us as Americans, but that level of depravity and brutality obviously isn't.

So what changed? Did we really get technologically advanced enough where people are too scared to act on these dark impulses? Did law enforcement finally get enough manpower and resources to simply overpower organized resistance? Growth of government? I don't think religion is the answer… society has grown less religious.

Modern civilization itself? It's a jarring thought to me that if I'd been born 150 years ago my chances of being murdered would, I suppose, be hundreds of time higher than they are now.

*Im not saying violence and depravity doesn't exist, it still does obviously. But you can go to the grocery store without the fear, usually, of being the victim of a random shootout, gang incident, etc. Although I guess if your point is humanity is still in the same stage as the Wild West is love to hear arguments in favor of that.

Anyway, just random thoughts.
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BonfireNerd04
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Was there really that much crime in the Wild West, or is that something that Hollywood played up?
BenFiasco14
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BonfireNerd04 said:

Was there really that much crime in the Wild West, or is that something that Hollywood played up?


Sure there's some of that at play, but the Utah War was real.
CNN is an enemy of the state and should be treated as such.
Im Gipper
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Lack of sufficient law enforcement and unorganized legal systems is the #1 reason by far.


I'm Gipper
Serotonin
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BonfireNerd04 said:

Was there really that much crime in the Wild West, or is that something that Hollywood played up?

Nailed it. CM blows violence way out of proportion to make philosophical and literary points.

Life wasn't easy (in fact the opposite) but it wasn't the brutally violent setting he portrays either. Read biographies of people who grew up out west in mining towns or histories of those towns. Tough people and places, but not anything like what is portrayed above.
dcbowers
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Probably equally likely to die from infection (cholera, tuberculosis, etc), malnutrition, and exposure.

Don't forget Indians and wild animals.
bmks270
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Society outside of organized government rule has always been a bit tribal with gangsters and vigilantes. Especially when tribes are warring.

The day to day threats from other humans are probably exaggerated for drama by writers, but undoubtedly you were more self reliant for your own safety.
Principal Uncertainty
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dcbowers said:

Probably equally likely to die from infection (cholera, tuberculosis, etc), malnutrition, and exposure.

Don't forget Indians and wild animals.


Malaria was a common cause of death in the southern US, and definitely part of Houston's past. I stumbled on a book written by Sam Houston's grandson (I think) written in the 1930' about the beginnings of the city called From Marsland to Miracle " (IIRC) that mentions a death or two from malaria. If wasn't basically eradicated until about the 1950's. We just don't think about that anymore. How soon a society forgets its past.
Ornithopter
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Laura Ingalls Wilder is probably a lot closer to what people experienced in the West.
ts5641
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BonfireNerd04 said:

Was there really that much crime in the Wild West, or is that something that Hollywood played up?

I'm sure that skews our perception of the west. I think the west had a lot to do with our independence. But once areas became more settled we started reverting to our more Judeo-Christian roots.
That wild is still in us though with no question.
oldord
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Wild West was incredibly safePrimarily because people policed themselves, and they all had the same values and understanding right and wrong due to Christianity. Excepting the American Indian, of course.

The correlations are very similar today. Don't go into the hood and you won't get shot or murdered. Same thing back then don't go into a cow town, or mining town or some other town that is wild and rwooley and you will be completely fine.


In fact, I would definitely say that the old West was safer than today at least in regards to interaction with other people.
FIDO95
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I think one main difference between 200 years ago and today was that self policing, for better or worse. Sociopaths' in a society were quickly identified, tarred and feathered and excommunicated if lucky or hanged if not so lucky. Around 1800 there were over 200 crimes that would result in the death penalty. I suspect a lot of innocents got caught up in that but it was useful in getting bad individuals out of the gene pool and keeping the peace.

Today, that pendulum has seemingly swung in the opposite direction. Criminals are given more rights then victims and law abiding citizens. Sociopathic behavior is celebrated within certain communities. Local communities that historically, for better or worse, would self police are now under the constant eye of federal agencies and progressive NGOs.
YouBet
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Serotonin said:

BonfireNerd04 said:

Was there really that much crime in the Wild West, or is that something that Hollywood played up?

Nailed it. CM blows violence way out of proportion to make philosophical and literary points.

Life wasn't easy (in fact the opposite) but it wasn't the brutally violent setting he portrays either. Read biographies of people who grew up out west in mining towns or histories of those towns. Tough people and places, but not anything like what is portrayed above.


Who or what is CM?
Frag
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The self proclaimed "concerned moderate", that, much like the unicorn, don't really exist.
nortex97
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The period of the 'wild west' in any given area was relatively brief, as frontier towns popped up and the population/railroads/law enforcement moved west in a largely steady manner. It's somewhat glorified in some of our art/movies today, from things as diverse as books/movies about quanah parker, lawmen, Apache raids etc.

But there was never a real 'stasis' of lawlessness in a town/state for a period of more than 5-15 years imho, with some oddball exceptions in places like mining towns in CO, Tombstone, or Dodge City. And even then, the general trend was that violent criminals were quickly and violently dealt with.

Dodge City I once read had a peak of something like 5 homicides in a given year. Maybe that is incorrect (someone can please tell me, if so) but it seems tiny compared to what I had perceived to be the case. Violent crime/murder rates would spike again under prohibition, and then the Great Depression, but more-so in major cities.
YouBet
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Yeah, I was going to say I assumed this lawlessness was primarily on the bleeding edges (literally and metaphorically) of the push west as settlers pushed into Indian territory and then waited for local infrastructure and organization to catch up with it after it got there.
TexasRebel
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Folks respected life a little more when they relied on everyone around them for something different.

John Doe is an experienced blacksmith. Someone murders John. Wagons in John's town go into disrepair as someone who has no metallurgical experience unwillingly takes over the blacksmith job. The supply chain dwindles as folks without wagons can transport less per trip to town. John's murderer is a debit to society.
AGinHI
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BonfireNerd04 said:

Was there really that much crime in the Wild West, or is that something that Hollywood played up?


"What is so fascinating about the West is that it was being mythologized even while it was taking place." And we're still mythologizing it.

Buffalo Bill wrote some of the first Western novels before his Wild West show for "the settled East want[ing] to hear about the unsettled West without all the bother and expense - and danger - of going there."

Quotes from Paul Johnson in A History of the American People
YouBet
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Maybe not quite as relevant because it was on the backend of the Wild West but you can get a good view of the west at the turn of the century reading The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt which is an excellent book. One of the biggest billy badasses this country has ever seen. He lived out there by himself hunting, fishing, and chasing birds just because.
BenFiasco14
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YouBet said:

Serotonin said:

BonfireNerd04 said:

Was there really that much crime in the Wild West, or is that something that Hollywood played up?

Nailed it. CM blows violence way out of proportion to make philosophical and literary points.

Life wasn't easy (in fact the opposite) but it wasn't the brutally violent setting he portrays either. Read biographies of people who grew up out west in mining towns or histories of those towns. Tough people and places, but not anything like what is portrayed above.


Who or what is CM?


He's referring to the author of blood meridian. Cormac McCarthy
CNN is an enemy of the state and should be treated as such.
Emotional Support Cobra
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dcbowers said:

Probably equally likely to die from infection (cholera, tuberculosis, etc), malnutrition, and exposure.

Don't forget Indians and wild animals.


"Now why don't he write?"
Backyard Gator
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The Wild West was from end of Civil War (1865) until 1900. The real question is how did we get from there to where we are today?

I'd recommend reading I'll Do My Own Damn Killing or Blood Aces, both of which cover Benny Binion. The former only covers his time in Dallas, ending when he leaves for Las Vegas, the latter covers his whole life.

It takes you from 1904 when Binion was born all the way through Prohibition, the Depression, WWI and WWII, and up into modern times. It explains somewhat how we moved from frontier justice to modern law enforcement.

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