13th amendment:
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

What is the difference between slavery and involuntary servitude?

Not sure if there is much of a difference.

Most likely the authors of the 13th Amendment put it in there to make sure the former slave states didn't try to rewrite their laws to get around the amendment, if it only specifically said "slavery."

I read the title as Salary or involuntary servitude and was wondering if this was going to be another anti-CEO thread

Kenneth_2003 said:

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Pretty sure involuntary servitude is a payment arrangement.

I bring you in to work for me, but I require you to live in my housing and eat on my dime. I probably provide you, at your indebted expense with all unforms, etc. So before you even work a single shift you're months or years in debt to me.

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That would be indentured servitude, correct? It's a voluntary arrangement with a contract.

Yeah I guess so...

Double Oaked said:

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Indentured servitude was used as a way to pay off debts. You couldn't claim bankruptcy, so if you owed money to someone, you became their "slave" for a set period of time with no pay.

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But that's not involuntary.

"Do this work that you didn't consent to because I literally own you" = Slavery.

"Do this work that you didn't consent to because I'm an authority figure and will punish you if you don't" = Involuntary servitude.

The difference is ownership.

Slavery is like when I ask the 16 year old to mow the lawn for no pay.

Involuntary servitude is like when I ask the 16 year old to mow the lawn and offer to give him money for it.


/KidsTheseDays...

Georgi has it right.

Slave must work, is property under law, no pay, almost no rights.

Involuntary servant must work, is not property under law, may be paid, some rights. In other words you are forced to work against your will, is still not lawful even if you are compensated and not considered property.

It is when you don't have a say in the matter??

If you owed me $10,000 and I could come to your house and throw you in chains and take you to my farm without your consent, what do you call that?

Double Oaked said:

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It is when you don't have a say in the matter??

If you owed me $10,000 and I could come to your house and throw you in chains and take you to my farm without your consent, what do you call that?

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That's called debt collection. You owe somebody money, you have to pay it back or… consequences.

"nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

Hence the 13th amendment…

MouthBQ98 said:

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Georgi has it right.

Slave must work, is property under law, no pay, almost no rights.

Involuntary servant must work, is not property under law, may be paid, some rights. In other words you are forced to work against your will, is still not lawful even if you are compensated and not considered property.

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Yeah. I sued a Chinese restaurant in a rural town in Georgia once. The owner was this shady figure in Chicago. I got a weird feeling about all the "employees" there. All Chinese workers. Only a few spoke English. I bet there was some kinda deal that he got them into America and they had to work for him for a certain number of years.

Double Oaked said:

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"nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

Hence the 13th amendment…

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Repeal it along with the 19th.

GeorgiAg said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

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Georgi has it right.

Slave must work, is property under law, no pay, almost no rights.

Involuntary servant must work, is not property under law, may be paid, some rights. In other words you are forced to work against your will, is still not lawful even if you are compensated and not considered property.

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Yeah. I sued a Chinese restaurant in a rural town in Georgia once. The owner was this shady figure in Chicago. I got a weird feeling about all the "employees" there. All Chinese workers. Only a few spoke English. I bet there was some kinda deal that he got them into America and they had to work for him for a certain number of years.

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Biden setup those arrangements by the millions.

You voted for it, then you sue a small business owner over it? That's pretty righteous bro.

Slavery = Blacks
Involuntary Servitude = Irish

A distinction without a difference.

flown-the-coop said:

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GeorgiAg said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

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Georgi has it right.

Slave must work, is property under law, no pay, almost no rights.

Involuntary servant must work, is not property under law, may be paid, some rights. In other words you are forced to work against your will, is still not lawful even if you are compensated and not considered property.

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Yeah. I sued a Chinese restaurant in a rural town in Georgia once. The owner was this shady figure in Chicago. I got a weird feeling about all the "employees" there. All Chinese workers. Only a few spoke English. I bet there was some kinda deal that he got them into America and they had to work for him for a certain number of years.

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Biden setup those arrangements by the millions.

You voted for it, then you sue a small business owner over it? That's pretty righteous bro.

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I was forced to do it. A little involuntary servitude myself. This guy was the husband of the CEO's secretary at a large hospital we represented, so my firm made me take on this crappy slip and fall. Guy was a shady undercover GBI agent and also had a dump truck business. He slipped and fell on a piece of fried shrimp at the Chinese buffet.

They destroyed the video footage, so they were forced to settle. Plus, the weird owner/employee thing going on. The owner had moved all but one of the existing employees to other locations and they could not locate any of them for a deposition. I can't believe they offered him over $300k when he had all these preexisting injuries he lied about. He [stupidly] didn't want to take it, but I told him I was going to fire him as a client if he didn't. He ended up chasing me around a conference table trying to punch me and his wife ran out crying.

I bought a 12-gauge shotgun during that case for under my bed, just for him. Dude was crazy - you have to be if you are an undercover GBI type dude and can fit in with hardened criminals. I still call that shotgun my [his last name] gun.

Employment non-compete?

Maybe slavery is officially owning someone as property and being able to trade them like any other property and involuntary servitude is just making them work for you against their will?

Bankruptcy makes the economy function better and thus everyone richer.

Don't really care if it makes the personal responsibility scolds feel icky. Involuntary servitude isn't just morally wrong. It also makes the whole country worse off.

Taxes should count as involuntary servitude.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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13th amendment:
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

What is the difference between slavery and involuntary servitude?

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Involuntary servitude technically has a time limit though many a POS would find ways to extend that time limit.

My understanding is that slavery is distinct due to an ownership dynamic

Peonage would be a form of involuntary servitude and as inhumane as slavery, if not more so.

Slavery = literally owning another person
Indentured servitude = I go into debt to someone and must work off that debt as a full "servant" to them (work any time or all the time) until debt is cleared
Involuntary servitude = forced through capture/threat of violence into working any time or all the time. Impressment, where the British Navy would capture ships on the high seas and force their captors into service of the Navy is a good example.

What about working for the community (real work, not activism) in order to collect your welfare? What's that called?

Contributing Your Fair Share?

GeorgiAg said:

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I can't believe they offered him over $300k when he had all these preexisting injuries he lied about. He [stupidly] didn't want to take it, but I told him I was going to fire him as a client if he didn't. He ended up chasing me around a conference table trying to punch me and his wife ran out crying.

I bought a 12-gauge shotgun during that case for under my bed, just for him. Dude was crazy - you have to be if you are an undercover GBI type dude and can fit in with hardened criminals. I still call that shotgun my [his last name] gun.

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I work 4-6 months for free so the government can spend my money on vunnables and NGOs. Am I in involuntary servitude?

Kenneth_2003 said:

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Pretty sure involuntary servitude is a payment arrangement.

I bring you in to work for me, but I require you to live in my housing and eat on my dime. I probably provide you, at your indebted expense with all unforms, etc. So before you even work a single shift you're months or years in debt to me.

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This is not right.

It's to make sure indentured servitude or other loopholes weren't used to get around "no slavery"

He ain't no slave. He is just working off a little money he owes me.

In can be a pay arrangement like peonage. The company store just makes sure you are in debt enough to have to keep working. That's why slavery to a master that takes care of his property might be a better situation than peonage where the company doesn't care.

DrEvazanPhD said:

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I work 4-6 months for free so the government can spend my money on vunnables and NGOs. Am I in involuntary servitude?

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Its close. But it is theft

Martin Q. Blank said:

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13th amendment:
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

What is the difference between slavery and involuntary servitude?

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Before 1865, slavery in the United States was characterized as chattel slavery. This meant that individuals were considered property, and their offspring were also considered property. involuntary servitude individuals are not generally considered property and thus there offspring are not property (can not be kept in involuntary servitude).