ETAM

3,235 Views | 35 Replies | Last: 6 days ago by Big Bucks
NomadicAggie
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Have a son going through this process now. This has to be the absolute worst idea any university has ever had. You get to pay a full year of tuition only to be told what you can and cannot major in.

If your student cares AT ALL what their major will be, you should honestly consider sending them elsewhere. And I say that as an Aggie engineer myself. This is a different place than I remember.
aggie93
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NomadicAggie said:

Have a son going through this process now. This has to be the absolute worst idea any university has ever had. You get to pay a full year of tuition only to be told what you can and cannot major in.

If your student cares AT ALL what their major will be, you should honestly consider sending them elsewhere. And I say that as an Aggie engineer myself. This is a different place than I remember.
ETAM is so flawed in so many ways and incentivizes a lot of bad behavior. It makes it extremely risky to challenge yourself as a Freshman and costs A&M a lot of really strong students who aren't going to risk one bad grade forcing them not to be able to get their major.

When my son and I did our last tour of Zachry the kid giving the tour literally talked about how he ended up in his 5th choice major and how he really didn't know what it was at the time but he was able to get into it. He then talked about how he found he liked it. Mainly he just loved A&M and was happy to get a degree in whatever he could. That works for those who are solely focused on being an Aggie but to others a story like that is pretty terrifying, especially when they can go to other schools without that stress. They throw out stats about X percent getting first or second choice but they don't mention that most kids self select out of the popular majors if they know they don't have the grades.

ETAM is one of the reasons my son is not going to A&M. not because he was concerned about making grades but because he didn't want to waste so much time.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
1Aggie99
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While I get the frustration, if you're getting your 5th choice things probably haven't gone well on the academic side of the equation. The process does have its issues, but it worked out really well in our experience. Our son got his first choice major. Now he busted his tail and put in the work, but the opportunities are there if you want them.

Not taking shots at anyone because I would never have made it through the process. It does require a commitment that I didn't have at that age and probably still don't!!

NomadicAggie
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If you have been admitted to the university, have above a 3.0, and have paid for a full year of tuition, you should not be told that your first three choices of major are not possible. That's a load of crap.
1Aggie99
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Maybe. However, you shouldn't be surprised. They post all of that info so if your first choice is the most competitive major then a 3.0 isn't going to cut it. Smart kid but the bar is set higher for some options. You can remove all doubt by getting the 3.75 or whatever to be guaranteed a slot.
NomadicAggie
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So again, better choice is to go to literally any other university where you know what your getting before you commit and spend money.

I get it. Get a 4.0 and nothing to worry about!!

Sounds more like a way to suck in as many kids as possible knowing you don't have the room to accommodate.

1Aggie99
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I get it and that first paragraph is accurate prior to choosing a university. However the last two statements are incorrect and completely avoidable. Anyone that doesn't know what is needed to get the engineering degree they are chasing at TAMU are either not asking the questions or head in sand.

It's right there in front of you prior to accepting admission. I agree there are probably better ways but it is what it is for now. Those that want that guaranteed upon admission should go elsewhere and just stay academically eligible. Those that choose TAMU should know that just getting in is half the battle. You better keep your ass focused or ID here I come.

I get it but damn, it's not like it's a surprise. Sucks to not get the first choice for sure.
NomadicAggie
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So tell me why UT doesn't do this?
aggie93
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1Aggie99 said:

While I get the frustration, if you're getting your 5th choice things probably haven't gone well on the academic side of the equation. The process does have its issues, but it worked out really well in our experience. Our son got his first choice major. Now he busted his tail and put in the work, but the opportunities are there if you want them.

Not taking shots at anyone because I would never have made it through the process. It does require a commitment that I didn't have at that age and probably still don't!!


No doubt he had issues but that isn't the point. The point is that ETAM fundamentally results in a lot of kids who are forced to major in something they didn't want as opposed to choosing to major in something they didn't originally intend which is how ETAM is "sold". Of course many kids make a 3.75 and can major in anything and many others are in majors that are not as competitive but it is a significant risk. Certainly for a strong student they will get through ETAM and get their major almost every time but why should a strong student want to bother with all that mess?

Here are some of the issues.

Strong student loves A&M and wants to be an engineer but has multiple other offers from similar or higher rated schools that offer him admission directly into his major. Even if he is confident in his abilities he knows he will have to take at least 2 Semesters of Math and Science at A&M and make grades to get into his major. If you have a kid who knows they want to do CS or Mech or BME that puts a lot of stress on them to take less aggressive classes. The way ETAM is set up a kid could have gotten a 5 on the Calc BC Exam and taken Multivariable in High School but they still have to take 2 Semesters of Math at A&M to get in their major starting with Diff EQ or retaking Calc III and gets no additional boost compared to a kid taking Calc I and II, that's crazy. He also could have taken Physics C Mech and E&M and gotten 5's on both and gotten a 5 in Chemistry but still have to take 2 Sciences just to get into his major. Meanwhile he is getting into Texas and Georgia Tech directly into his major. That's an insane system that shows incredible arrogance for A&M to think a strong student is going to want to go to A&M so badly they will want to waste that time and money and still have to take a risk they won't get their major if they get a bad prof or maybe they get sick and bomb a test. It pushes away many top students.

This has created situations like my son's HS which is one of the best publics in Texas. They had 63 kids graduate in the Top 10% and only 8 are going to A&M. Over half are going to Texas. To give you an idea of the competitiveness of the school there are 5 kids OUTSIDE the Top 10% who got into Ivy League schools. A solid majority of the Top 10% are majoring in Engineering in college. ETAM is something often brought up along with lack of scholarship opportunities.

The point of my bringing up the kid giving the tour is if someone who isn't already an A&M fan hears a story like that they will just cross A&M off the list. Other schools don't have policies like that. The few that do have a similar program to ETAM have much different standards that are actually designed around letting kids explore different majors. A 3.0 instead of a 3.75 for instance. Giving value to AP credits with 4's and 5's to count in your favor. Lots of ways to make sure that if you have a strong student out of HS they will want to come to A&M and know they can get their major barring a collapse in their grades. What A&M has done is expand Engineering to the point where where it creates these problems because there are finite resources. The kid mentioned above should not have even been admitted to Engineering originally and based on his backstory he also gave of transferring in that became apparent, nothing against the kid but it is what it is.

I admit a lot of frustration personally on this because my son chose to go elsewhere but A&M really made it a no brainer. For him it was a choice of a partial scholarship at A&M, being in Eng Honors and having to go through ETAM and graduating in 4 years vs going to a similarly rated Engineering school OOS with a full ride on an institutional scholarship with many benefits with a choice of graduating in 3 years or getting a Masters in 4 (he plans on the latter). He also had several other very attractive options. This is with a kid that grew up completely surrounded with A&M and loving A&M. I saw so many of his friends that had similar academics that just look at A&M as a safety school now or look at ETAM and other policies and don't even seriously consider it.

It just staggers me what a vacuum our school operates in policy wise and how short sighted we are. It's like our mission is to do the least with the most.
aggie93
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NomadicAggie said:

So tell me why UT doesn't do this?
UT does not have ETAM, you are directly admitted into your major.
1Aggie99
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I'm not arguing for or against the process at TAMU vs any other university. But it's kinda like complaining about your choice of birth control when you're in the delivery room!
NomadicAggie
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Got it. Thanks for that comment. Trust me, we have plenty of regrets here.

Parents of prospective students reading this, do yourself a favor and go somewhere else.
1Aggie99
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Completely understand! I think it boils down to doing your homework prior to accepting any offer and find your fit. TAMU is great but there are a lot of good options out there and everyone has their own place, just have to find it.

Also, good reminder from your experience and as a dad of a current student giving tours. Trust, but verify! Really doesn't matter positive or negative info gathered on those campus visits. Always good to follow up and do your own research. The devil is in the details.
NomadicAggie
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One final comment on the matter.

It's easy to sit here and say, "well, if you didn't think you were going to get at least a 3.75 GPA your freshman year, you should have thought better of enrolling".

My son has grown up his whole life wanting to be an Aggie. He did well in high school, was a top 10% kid, and was gung ho. I would guess that most, if not all, incoming freshman assume and expect they will do well enough to pick their major. It seems unrealistic to put this back on an 18 year old coming out of high school to try and determine whether or not they will make all A's their freshman year at a school they've never attended. They all think, as well they should, that they have what it takes.

This feels more like getting the rug pulled.
Aggie_Boomin 21
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The answer to this I believe is due to how volume based A&M is when it comes to producing engineering graduates. They want to fill the less in demand majors with students they decide won't be the best in the more in demand majors.

ETAM really only sucks for a few of the majors, if you aren't planning on doing those (and there are many schools I would go to over A&M for CompSci specifically) then getting your first choice shouldn't be that hard.
SA68AG
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aggie93 said:

1Aggie99 said:

While I get the frustration, if you're getting your 5th choice things probably haven't gone well on the academic side of the equation. The process does have its issues, but it worked out really well in our experience. Our son got his first choice major. Now he busted his tail and put in the work, but the opportunities are there if you want them.

Not taking shots at anyone because I would never have made it through the process. It does require a commitment that I didn't have at that age and probably still don't!!


No doubt he had issues but that isn't the point. The point is that ETAM fundamentally results in a lot of kids who are forced to major in something they didn't want as opposed to choosing to major in something they didn't originally intend which is how ETAM is "sold". Of course many kids make a 3.75 and can major in anything and many others are in majors that are not as competitive but it is a significant risk. Certainly for a strong student they will get through ETAM and get their major almost every time but why should a strong student want to bother with all that mess?

Here are some of the issues.

Strong student loves A&M and wants to be an engineer but has multiple other offers from similar or higher rated schools that offer him admission directly into his major. Even if he is confident in his abilities he knows he will have to take at least 2 Semesters of Math and Science at A&M and make grades to get into his major. If you have a kid who knows they want to do CS or Mech or BME that puts a lot of stress on them to take less aggressive classes. The way ETAM is set up a kid could have gotten a 5 on the Calc BC Exam and taken Multivariable in High School but they still have to take 2 Semesters of Math at A&M to get in their major starting with Diff EQ or retaking Calc III and gets no additional boost compared to a kid taking Calc I and II, that's crazy. He also could have taken Physics C Mech and E&M and gotten 5's on both and gotten a 5 in Chemistry but still have to take 2 Sciences just to get into his major. Meanwhile he is getting into Texas and Georgia Tech directly into his major. That's an insane system that shows incredible arrogance for A&M to think a strong student is going to want to go to A&M so badly they will want to waste that time and money and still have to take a risk they won't get their major if they get a bad prof or maybe they get sick and bomb a test. It pushes away many top students.

This has created situations like my son's HS which is one of the best publics in Texas. They had 63 kids graduate in the Top 10% and only 8 are going to A&M. Over half are going to Texas. To give you an idea of the competitiveness of the school there are 5 kids OUTSIDE the Top 10% who got into Ivy League schools. A solid majority of the Top 10% are majoring in Engineering in college. ETAM is something often brought up along with lack of scholarship opportunities.

The point of my bringing up the kid giving the tour is if someone who isn't already an A&M fan hears a story like that they will just cross A&M off the list. Other schools don't have policies like that. The few that do have a similar program to ETAM have much different standards that are actually designed around letting kids explore different majors. A 3.0 instead of a 3.75 for instance. Giving value to AP credits with 4's and 5's to count in your favor. Lots of ways to make sure that if you have a strong student out of HS they will want to come to A&M and know they can get their major barring a collapse in their grades. What A&M has done is expand Engineering to the point where where it creates these problems because there are finite resources. The kid mentioned above should not have even been admitted to Engineering originally and based on his backstory he also gave of transferring in that became apparent, nothing against the kid but it is what it is.

I admit a lot of frustration personally on this because my son chose to go elsewhere but A&M really made it a no brainer. For him it was a choice of a partial scholarship at A&M, being in Eng Honors and having to go through ETAM and graduating in 4 years vs going to a similarly rated Engineering school OOS with a full ride on an institutional scholarship with many benefits with a choice of graduating in 3 years or getting a Masters in 4 (he plans on the latter). He also had several other very attractive options. This is with a kid that grew up completely surrounded with A&M and loving A&M. I saw so many of his friends that had similar academics that just look at A&M as a safety school now or look at ETAM and other policies and don't even seriously consider it.

It just staggers me what a vacuum our school operates in policy wise and how short sighted we are. It's like our mission is to do the least with the most.

Westwood ?
aggie93
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SA68AG said:

aggie93 said:

1Aggie99 said:

While I get the frustration, if you're getting your 5th choice things probably haven't gone well on the academic side of the equation. The process does have its issues, but it worked out really well in our experience. Our son got his first choice major. Now he busted his tail and put in the work, but the opportunities are there if you want them.

Not taking shots at anyone because I would never have made it through the process. It does require a commitment that I didn't have at that age and probably still don't!!


No doubt he had issues but that isn't the point. The point is that ETAM fundamentally results in a lot of kids who are forced to major in something they didn't want as opposed to choosing to major in something they didn't originally intend which is how ETAM is "sold". Of course many kids make a 3.75 and can major in anything and many others are in majors that are not as competitive but it is a significant risk. Certainly for a strong student they will get through ETAM and get their major almost every time but why should a strong student want to bother with all that mess?

Here are some of the issues.

Strong student loves A&M and wants to be an engineer but has multiple other offers from similar or higher rated schools that offer him admission directly into his major. Even if he is confident in his abilities he knows he will have to take at least 2 Semesters of Math and Science at A&M and make grades to get into his major. If you have a kid who knows they want to do CS or Mech or BME that puts a lot of stress on them to take less aggressive classes. The way ETAM is set up a kid could have gotten a 5 on the Calc BC Exam and taken Multivariable in High School but they still have to take 2 Semesters of Math at A&M to get in their major starting with Diff EQ or retaking Calc III and gets no additional boost compared to a kid taking Calc I and II, that's crazy. He also could have taken Physics C Mech and E&M and gotten 5's on both and gotten a 5 in Chemistry but still have to take 2 Sciences just to get into his major. Meanwhile he is getting into Texas and Georgia Tech directly into his major. That's an insane system that shows incredible arrogance for A&M to think a strong student is going to want to go to A&M so badly they will want to waste that time and money and still have to take a risk they won't get their major if they get a bad prof or maybe they get sick and bomb a test. It pushes away many top students.

This has created situations like my son's HS which is one of the best publics in Texas. They had 63 kids graduate in the Top 10% and only 8 are going to A&M. Over half are going to Texas. To give you an idea of the competitiveness of the school there are 5 kids OUTSIDE the Top 10% who got into Ivy League schools. A solid majority of the Top 10% are majoring in Engineering in college. ETAM is something often brought up along with lack of scholarship opportunities.

The point of my bringing up the kid giving the tour is if someone who isn't already an A&M fan hears a story like that they will just cross A&M off the list. Other schools don't have policies like that. The few that do have a similar program to ETAM have much different standards that are actually designed around letting kids explore different majors. A 3.0 instead of a 3.75 for instance. Giving value to AP credits with 4's and 5's to count in your favor. Lots of ways to make sure that if you have a strong student out of HS they will want to come to A&M and know they can get their major barring a collapse in their grades. What A&M has done is expand Engineering to the point where where it creates these problems because there are finite resources. The kid mentioned above should not have even been admitted to Engineering originally and based on his backstory he also gave of transferring in that became apparent, nothing against the kid but it is what it is.

I admit a lot of frustration personally on this because my son chose to go elsewhere but A&M really made it a no brainer. For him it was a choice of a partial scholarship at A&M, being in Eng Honors and having to go through ETAM and graduating in 4 years vs going to a similarly rated Engineering school OOS with a full ride on an institutional scholarship with many benefits with a choice of graduating in 3 years or getting a Masters in 4 (he plans on the latter). He also had several other very attractive options. This is with a kid that grew up completely surrounded with A&M and loving A&M. I saw so many of his friends that had similar academics that just look at A&M as a safety school now or look at ETAM and other policies and don't even seriously consider it.

It just staggers me what a vacuum our school operates in policy wise and how short sighted we are. It's like our mission is to do the least with the most.

Westwood ?
Nope, and that kind of makes my point even more. Essentially the same thing at many top HS's in Texas.
Buck Turgidson
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Are the kids who don't get their first choice struggling academically, or are they being denied simply because their first choice major "filled up"?

If its the former, then that's not much different than what's happened all along in various majors at A&M. I myself was "invited" by the accounting department to go find another major as a junior back in the '80s. I switched to architecture and did great. Ended up in a career that used both my business and architecture backgrounds.

If, on the other hand, the school is just "running out of room" in certain majors, it sounds like A&M needs to adjust their faculty to meet demand from qualified students.
Buck Turgidson
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Aggie_Boomin 21 said:

ETAM really only sucks for a few of the majors, if you aren't planning on doing those (and there are many schools I would go to over A&M for CompSci specifically) then getting your first choice shouldn't be that hard.
What are those few majors? I have a kid (rising HS junior) looking at A&M and he's mainly interested in a few engineering fields (like mechanical engineering) and computer science.
1Aggie99
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Here is the link to 2024 results.


Entry to a Major Results for Spring 2024

Aggie_Boomin 21
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Poster above linked the data. Mechanical is very competitive. CompSci has a deceivingly high acceptance rate for 1st choice majors, but there are a huge proportion of those that were auto admits for having that 3.75 gpa or higher. Think what's going on there is students self selecting out assuming they won't get it as another poster suggested.
Buck Turgidson
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Wow, i would have expected that EE would be all first choice kids and be the most selective of all. Theyre actually pushing kids into EE who didnt want it as a first choice. Also looks like ID is the catch basin for a lot of kids that preferred something else.
NomadicAggie
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After further consideration, son is going to transfer. 3.2 gpa and did not get one of his top three choices. What a disaster. This school has way too many kids.
HuttoAg27
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Would you mind sharing what his top three choices were? ETAM really sucks. It was the most stressful time in my life, and I wouldn't wish it upon anyone. Thankfully I got auto admit into MEEN, but I know many who worked just as hard if not harder and didn't make the cut. Good luck to your son at the next stop.
1Aggie99
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That sucks but best of luck to him wherever he lands.
TXAG 05
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So no student gets into major right off the bat? Even if 10% in high school?

double b
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TXAG 05 said:

So no student gets into major right off the bat? Even if 10% in high school?




National Merits are the only students guaranteed their engineering major of choice with freshman admissions.
HuttoAg27
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If you're not top 10% your admission to general engineering is probably several months later already
justanotherbaxter
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I'm not here to advocate for ETAM. I went through the process myself; while I did get my first-choice major, I honestly felt like I was pretty close to having to choose something else.

But there's a perspective missing from this thread: ETAM actually gives many students a shot at TAMU Engineering who otherwise wouldn't get in at all. Instead of being outright rejected (or, in some cases, effectively rejected by timing), they're given the chance to compete for a major.

For example:
Student A applies to both TAMU and UT. (They're in the top 6%great grades, but not a National Merit type of SAT/ACT score.)

UT: Applies for CS and Electrical Engineering. Gets denied for both. They get general admission, but by the time the engineering review is over, the remaining majors aren't really desirable. Effectively, that's a denial from the engineering school.
TAMU: Applies for Engineering, gets in, and goes through ETAM. Maybe they realize they aren't competitive for CS or EE, but can choose an adjacent major where they are competitive and still end up with a great engineering career.

I get that a lot of parents here have kids who got into Texas or even Ivy-adjacent schools, and are frustrated that TAMU's process is different.

A lot of ETAM is political, the state has pushed for higher engineering enrollment, and TAMU uses ETAM to distribute students across "engineering" majors, keeping the flagship majors (EE, CS, ME, CE, etc.) more selective to prevent degree inflation. But it also helps kids who, maybe due to poor guidance, would have only applied to the most competitive majors (and gotten flat out turned away as in the UT example), find another good path in engineering.

I remember in the late 2010s, an admissions rep visited our class and said that, without ETAM, our engineering class size would be half of what it is. Whether we like it or not, ETAM does give more students a real chance at earning an engineering degree who otherwise would have been turned away, as is the case at UT. If you go to any college confidential page you see stellar kids being denied from UT, if we didn't have an ETAM or an expansionist system, you'd find the same things in these threads instead of ETAM bashing.

One last thing, it surprises me that such stellar students are so worried about a little competition. Haven't these same students excelled at schools where half the class goes to Texas-tier universities? If you can do well in competitive majors at UT or similar schools, you can do well at TAMU, too. Life involves some risks, and in my experience, most strong students end up with their first-choice major anyway.

To end, don't we as Aggies pride ourselves for being tough? For being gritty? For being competitive and giving people a fair shake? That we aren't like UT? I'm not saying ETAM should stay but it's not the boogieman people make it out to be.

(I realize this opinion might not be popular, but maybe someone will find it helpful.)
Eliminatus
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That was how I always understood it. It's a thunderdome but a fair one where everyone got their shot, a fresh one no matter what they did in high school. Which we ALL know is not the same across this state.

Plus, I can't find it now, but I swear I remember seeing some statistics of retention and overall graduation rates going up substantially after implementation of ETAM. The findings being that the students were more ready to survive the rigors of their majors once they got through the "boot camp " of ETAM as it were.

Though I will admit I am speaking from the outside. I transferred into the CoE but I swear that process was just as stressful and terrible in its own ways trying to get in as ETAM was…

Love it or hate it though, I don't think it's going anywhere at this point. And I do understand the frustration of the parents. Let's all just blame the horrible top 10% rule!
aggie93
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justanotherbaxter said:


I'm not here to advocate for ETAM. I went through the process myself; while I did get my first-choice major, I honestly felt like I was pretty close to having to choose something else.

But there's a perspective missing from this thread: ETAM actually gives many students a shot at TAMU Engineering who otherwise wouldn't get in at all. Instead of being outright rejected (or, in some cases, effectively rejected by timing), they're given the chance to compete for a major.

For example:
Student A applies to both TAMU and UT. (They're in the top 6%great grades, but not a National Merit type of SAT/ACT score.)

UT: Applies for CS and Electrical Engineering. Gets denied for both. They get general admission, but by the time the engineering review is over, the remaining majors aren't really desirable. Effectively, that's a denial from the engineering school.
TAMU: Applies for Engineering, gets in, and goes through ETAM. Maybe they realize they aren't competitive for CS or EE, but can choose an adjacent major where they are competitive and still end up with a great engineering career.

I get that a lot of parents here have kids who got into Texas or even Ivy-adjacent schools, and are frustrated that TAMU's process is different.

A lot of ETAM is political, the state has pushed for higher engineering enrollment, and TAMU uses ETAM to distribute students across "engineering" majors, keeping the flagship majors (EE, CS, ME, CE, etc.) more selective to prevent degree inflation. But it also helps kids who, maybe due to poor guidance, would have only applied to the most competitive majors (and gotten flat out turned away as in the UT example), find another good path in engineering.

I remember in the late 2010s, an admissions rep visited our class and said that, without ETAM, our engineering class size would be half of what it is. Whether we like it or not, ETAM does give more students a real chance at earning an engineering degree who otherwise would have been turned away, as is the case at UT. If you go to any college confidential page you see stellar kids being denied from UT, if we didn't have an ETAM or an expansionist system, you'd find the same things in these threads instead of ETAM bashing.

One last thing, it surprises me that such stellar students are so worried about a little competition. Haven't these same students excelled at schools where half the class goes to Texas-tier universities? If you can do well in competitive majors at UT or similar schools, you can do well at TAMU, too. Life involves some risks, and in my experience, most strong students end up with their first-choice major anyway.

To end, don't we as Aggies pride ourselves for being tough? For being gritty? For being competitive and giving people a fair shake? That we aren't like UT? I'm not saying ETAM should stay but it's not the boogieman people make it out to be.

(I realize this opinion might not be popular, but maybe someone will find it helpful.)


It's not that top students are worried about competition, it's about common sense. If you can go to a similar or higher rated Engineering school and get directly into your major then why go to A&M?

This is a 6 figure investment and a major business and life decision. Serious students are going to weigh that and they should. A&M needs to make adjustments or we will continue to be treated as a Safety school by those kids or simply not be considered by others. Lots of ways to fix the problem to make accommodations for top students. If you are a college counselor it's irresponsible not to point it out.

The other option is we can just keep watching them go elsewhere, that's what my son is doing and he's got very, very strong ties to A&M. For kids without those ties it just marks A&M off the list before they even take a look. I just don't see how a policy that is seen as such a negative by so many exceptional students who are auto admit and get into Engineering with ease should simply be ignored. This isn't just about Texas either, literally no one has a strict ETAM style policy like A&M's. The other schools that have 1st year entry programs are far more lenient and filled with exceptions for top students.

Take a look at NC State for instance where my son is going. They call their program CODA but 85% of students get their 1st choice. If you are above a 3.0 you are pretty much a lock even for the most competitive majors. You can qualify after 1 Semester and they account for AP scores. They ask for intent prior to acceptance so they can account for planning. They truly use the program to let students take some intro Engineering classes that explain the majors so someone knows what they are getting into and don't use it as a weed out. Oh, and they are also very competitive. They had 13,000 applicants for FY Engineering and have 1900 Freshman.

At A&M the mission seems to be to graduate as many Engineers as possible and to fill out all the Engineering specialties that people aren't interested in taking as a 1st or 2nd choice. It certainly doesn't seem to be about what is best for students. That's the simple truth when you look at it objectively, it certainly isn't about making students "tough" or "gritty",
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
Eliminatus
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AG
A cursory glance around at NCSU CODAs top programs still need at least a 3.5 GPA to get in. But yes, generally speaking, they will have lower requirements. Most schools do. TAMU simply doesn't have the space and hasn't for years now. When I transferred in in '17, the reqs on paper were a 3.5 but realistically it was around a 3.75 just to get looked at. When I graduated it was a 3.75 on paper with around a 3.9 rumored to even get in the door for holistic.

I am not fan of this process either but the reality is is that TAMU is not and will not be hurting for applicants, and Aggie legacies at that, in any sort of time frame. The year I left, 2021, the place was a madhouse I felt like and every single semester we were setting records for incoming classes. Again, I personally am not a fan either tbh. But to the bean counters there is no problem and even rather a great success all around. ETAM was not just slapped into place on a whim. It was designed to up the retention rate of upper classmen in the first chosen engineering majors and ultimately graduate. Which at the time it was implemented, those rates were pretty abysmal. The dropout rate from the CoE was bad. I entered TAMU right when those numbers really started to turn around and why I remember it. It was pretty drastic. I was also in during the early phase of 25 by 25, and the new Zachry building, and then COVID.... It was an interesting time to be in engineering school...

aggie93
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Eliminatus said:

A cursory glance around at NCSU CODAs top programs still need at least a 3.5 GPA to get in. But yes, generally speaking, they will have lower requirements. Most schools do. TAMU simply doesn't have the space and hasn't for years now. When I transferred in in '17, the reqs on paper were a 3.5 but realistically it was around a 3.75 just to get looked at. When I graduated it was a 3.75 on paper with around a 3.9 rumored to even get in the door for holistic.

I am not fan of this process either but the reality is is that TAMU is not and will not be hurting for applicants, and Aggie legacies at that, in any sort of time frame. The year I left, 2021, the place was a madhouse I felt like and every single semester we were setting records for incoming classes. Again, I personally am not a fan either tbh. But to the bean counters there is no problem and even rather a great success all around. ETAM was not just slapped into place on a whim. It was designed to up the retention rate of upper classmen in the first chosen engineering majors and ultimately graduate. Which at the time it was implemented, those rates were pretty abysmal. The dropout rate from the CoE was bad. I entered TAMU right when those numbers really started to turn around and why I remember it. It was pretty drastic. I was also in during the early phase of 25 by 25, and the new Zachry building, and then COVID.... It was an interesting time to be in engineering school...



NCSU has high averages but they aren't required to get into a major. Comp Sci is their most popular major for instance and last year they had 342 apply for CODA and 313 accepted. Similar numbers for the other popular majors. The most competitive appears to be Biomedical Engineering which is a dual program with UNC but still had 83 out of 114 first choice get accepted. You can also CODA after 1 Semester and some can CODA immediately. It's just not seen as the hyper stressful system like A&M has because 85% get first choice, you have to really be struggling not to get it.

The issue isn't having ETAM/CODA it's about how it is implemented. Not counting AP scores. Not looking at intent for applicants and thus creating way too many kids who want the same majors and not having the ability to take them.

No other school has such a strict ETAM program like A&M that I have found and I did a lot of research yet most schools don't have significant attrition issues. It's just a poorly thought out and poorly executed program because it ignores the obvious problems or tries to cover them up by saying "X number get their first or second choice" but also making it clear that most kids know they have no chance at any of the premium majors so there is no reason to apply.

I'm just saying A&M lost my 3rd Gen son in part over ETAM and it lost a ton of his friends who are exceptional students that were auto admits. I've seen the number of top students from his HS gradually move away from A&M. Still lots of students who are going there and in Engineering just not many Top 10% and very few that also were accepted to UT in Engineering. I would like to see that change and the ways to do that are by fixing ETAM and offering more merit aid. We should want kids who are Top 5% and with 1500 plus SAT's to want to come to Aggieland and we don't get nearly as many as we should.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
Eliminatus
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AG
I get what you are saying, and also kinda don't. Though that is my own bias I will admit of being a first gen college kid. Believe me, TAMU gets plenty of top kids. Truly. To the point where quibbling over a few extra I feel broaches on the pedantic.

And I finally read the full thread and I get the sense you are conflating the lack of financial aid with ETAM into one ball of misery. They are two completely different messes. The whole no aid thing is incredibly dumb and a FAR bigger issue than ETAM is IMO, when it comes to Texas HS kid retention. Hell, I am pretty sure if we offered anything close to basic aid, Arky would have to close overnight.

Again, I don't want to be seen as white knighting for ETAM. I am not. But I do see the reasoning behind it. It's not even close to perfect but someone was tasked with fixing the low graduation rates in addition to the growing insanity of the bloated student population and dwindling school resources and space at the same time. It's a ****ty fix but it IS a fix of sorts. Graduation rates went up significantly and a semi-controllable bottleneck was placed on the engineering population. Which is weird I guess with the 25x25 directive...though that is a whole other topic. Love it, hate it, it actually works to a degree on a macro scale. Disregarding all anecdotal input, when factoring in ALL data and personnel, ETAM got the results the admin was wanting. ETAM is also always in flux. The GPA numbers keep going up with the student crunch. If I tried to get in today, I am about 95% I would not be able to. I suspect a very strong percentage of current Aggie engineers would struggle to get in today tbh.

ETA: Read this back and I can see how this might come off as being an ******* kind of vibe. Not my intent. Typed this on my phone while waiting on my pizza in a waiting area. Just wanted to get across that ETAM sucks for kids and parents. But I can see why it exists at the end of the day. The ensuing nuances of the numbers and stressors are largely a product of the student crunch though IMO, not ETAM itself. Which sounds a lot like other systems other schools have. Including NCSU. The strictness is more likely than not from our overpopulation.
aggie93
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Eliminatus said:

I get what you are saying, and also kinda don't. Though that is my own bias I will admit of being a first gen college kid. Believe me, TAMU gets plenty of top kids. Truly. To the point where quibbling over a few extra I feel broaches on the pedantic.

And I finally read the full thread and I get the sense you are conflating the lack of financial aid with ETAM into one ball of misery. They are two completely different messes. The whole no aid thing is incredibly dumb and a FAR bigger issue than ETAM is IMO, when it comes to Texas HS kid retention. Hell, I am pretty sure if we offered anything close to basic aid, Arky would have to close overnight.

Again, I don't want to be seen as white knighting for ETAM. I am not. But I do see the reasoning behind it. It's not even close to perfect but someone was tasked with fixing the low graduation rates in addition to the growing insanity of the bloated student population and dwindling school resources and space at the same time. It's a ****ty fix but it IS a fix of sorts. Graduation rates went up significantly and a semi-controllable bottleneck was placed on the engineering population. Which is weird I guess with the 25x25 directive...though that is a whole other topic. Love it, hate it, it actually works to a degree on a macro scale. Disregarding all anecdotal input, when factoring in ALL data and personnel, ETAM got the results the admin was wanting. ETAM is also always in flux. The GPA numbers keep going up with the student crunch. If I tried to get in today, I am about 95% I would not be able to. I suspect a very strong percentage of current Aggie engineers would struggle to get in today tbh.

ETA: Read this back and I can see how this might come off as being an ******* kind of vibe. Not my intent. Typed this on my phone while waiting on my pizza in a waiting area. Just wanted to get across that ETAM sucks for kids and parents. But I can see why it exists at the end of the day. The ensuing nuances of the numbers and stressors are largely a product of the student crunch though IMO, not ETAM itself. Which sounds a lot like other systems other schools have. Including NCSU. The strictness is more likely than not from our overpopulation.

I can understand your perspective and it makes sense until you see what other schools dealing with similar issues are doing and that's the problem. FWIW the attrition rates for Engineering also have little to do with ETAM but rather with the fact that Engineering is the only college at A&M that admits separately and not based on when you apply. That did a lot to fix the issue of having kids just decide to major in Engineering that were not ready for it. Once you are accepted into Engineering they can find a degree for you barring completely flunking out. You will just end up in one of the less popular engineering fields they are trying to fill.

There are many ways to solve these issues. Look at different standards for getting into a major including APs and rigor. Add faculty and resources to focus on the majors that match student demand. Have students declare an intent and use that as a factor in admissions instead of having everyone general engineering pretending like it will even out in the more than 2 dozen specialties by itself. As it stands you have lots of kids who come in thinking they will major in one of the popular specialties (CS, CE, BME, ME, Aero) and realistically many have little chance and will end up somewhere else. That's a great disservice to kids who don't know better.

Then of course you have the kids I mentioned who DO know better and have options. I understand the mentality that A&M gets lots of great students anyway and we don't need them but that's very short sighted. I want the best students in Texas to want to come to A&M. I understand merit is separate from ETAM but it's the other major factor of why we lose those kids. I mean unless you truly bleed maroon it makes little sense to turn down being admitted directly to your major at Texas and if you got into Honors you are likely getting some merit money as well. At A&M unless you are NM you likely won't get anything so all the weight is on a one day test from the beginning of Junior year that many top students don't value.

I just don't want A&M to live in a bubble because that will always limit us and we need to be smarter. We do less with more than any school I have seen and I didn't really realize that until I had 2 boys go through the college admissions process with an open mind.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
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