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Will we ever really know the truth about Kirk murder?

2,123 Views | 33 Replies | Last: 2 hrs ago by TwoDogs
Horse with No Name
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I posted this on poli board, but I figure there's more people over here with firearm knowledge that might respond intelligently...


My brother and I have 4 teen sons between the two of us. They all knew about the assassination before we did. So he and I were talking about it today and had this question...

What are the hallmarks of a professional hit? How would an amateur do it any differently? Would the pro be able to melt away into the crowd? How would you tell the difference between a disgruntled student (disgruntled for whatever reason) and a patsy set up to take the fall?

I can see a rage fueled leftist student with a modicum of shooting experience be able to make that shot with a $400 rifle from academy. I could also see a pro leave the gun behind because untraceable and why carry a bulky item out into the crowd. My personal theory based on what was said on Wilcow today (.30-06 Mauser rifle) is that this was a student that had or stole a rifle and left it behind. That would be unlikely to be a takedown rifle, though, so how did he get across campus and through a building with a gun case?

Of course, it makes sense that a pro would leave said rifle behind as red herring (maybe ballistics will bear this out.) Seemingly, a pro would have tools that would be concealable and get in/out without being noticed.

Last question, especially for those who believe this was a hired hit by a pro--who is the last high profile victim of assassination committed by a hired gun who slipped away never to be seen again? I honestly cannot think of ANY. So, were all of the high profile hits of the last 125 years done by lone wolves, or just pinned on patsys?

TL/DR--This is going to be another JFK where won't ever know in our heart of hearts who did this.
Ridin' 'cross the desert. . .
HumbleAg04
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AG
I've seen nothing to indicate a "pro" hit. Shooter plainly visible, shot into a vest and tragically got lucky with ricochet, ran off a roof being video'd and getting caught on camera. Didn't run or move like someone with any significant physical training or conditioning in the footage available.

Just a solo nut spreading their ideology of hatred and violence.
Windy City Ag
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AG
Quote:

Last question, especially for those who believe this was a hired hit by a pro--who is the last high profile victim of assassination committed by a hired gun who slipped away never to be seen again? I honestly cannot think of ANY.

There were several European leaders or political refugees assassinated with the killer never being caught.

Two of them were obvious Russian intelligence hits. Alexander Litvinenko had polonium slipped into his drink and died of cancer soon after. Bulgarian dissident Georgi Markov was killed with a ricin laden pellet shot from an umbrella in broad daylight in London with the killers getting away.

Olof Palm, prime minister of Sweden, was shot to death leaving a theater with no assassin ever being identified.
BrazosDog02
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AG
I only know what I know about professional murder for hires from what I see on CSI and the movies.

Thinking through this, if you have to see this and say "I wonder if this is a pro hit?", then it's not a pro hit. If I were a pro, doing this for money, then I would be very good at what I did as I would be making a living doing it and as such I would wish not to get caught. I would imagine the rules of not getting caught include not showing up on surveillance, not leaving weapons behind, and not leaving a solitary trace of any sort.
Horse with No Name
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I didn't really think about poisonings with my question, but I do remember hearing of those. Apparently, the ricin pellet was a Soviet specialty.
Ridin' 'cross the desert. . .
schmellba99
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AG
This was the work of a deranged unhinged leftist lunatic, nothing more.

The shot wasn't some super awesome Delta Force sniper shot. It was a 140 yard shot with a bolt action .30-06 from a fixed position at a relatively static target. Kirk wasn't wearing a vest, and odds are the shooter was aiming at his chest and missed high due to not taking into account the elevation delta, cheap scope, run of the mill gun that was probably only marginally sighted in and a shooter that wasn't some trained hardened killer.

The fact that it hit Charlie in the neck was nothing more than a combination of a bunch of factors that were highly unfortunate for Mr. Kirk.
Claude!
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We're +1 day from the murder. Looking back, it took a few days for police to identify Luigi Mangione, and he was identified on day +4 and captured on day +5 from Thompson's murder. At this point, I think it's too soon to be seriously concerned that Kirk's killer will get away with it.
Naveronski
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AG
HumbleAg04 said:

shot into a vest and tragically got lucky with ricochet,

What are you talking about?
Stringfellow Hawke
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AG
I would think that a "professional" would choose a place with way less people,cameras, and easier way to access a vehicle to drive away to increased odds of not being videotaped.The location seemed a decent distance from a parking lot.
Milwaukees Best Light
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AG
The Saudi goons that cut the reporter into pieces have never been caught. Does that count?
lazuras_dc
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Naveronski said:

HumbleAg04 said:

shot into a vest and tragically got lucky with ricochet,

What are you talking about?

I heard this on another thread but is this actually confirmed?
AgResearch
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AG
lazuras_dc said:

Naveronski said:

HumbleAg04 said:

shot into a vest and tragically got lucky with ricochet,

What are you talking about?

I heard this on another thread but is this actually confirmed?


No, he wasn't wearing a vest. Still frames you can see his pectoral muscles and nipples through the tight shirt.
shalackin
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They keep saying 200 yards takes extreme marksmanship. It just shows you how little people really understand. 200 yards is not that difficult. A professional hit would more than likely have put one through his head. Such a sad day. I am still in shock and angry.
japantiger
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S
Some points:

If it was a pro, seems more likely they would be inside the building where he wasn't exposed
Doing the shooting in the open and then having to escape in the open seems pretty amateurish.

Nothing special about a Mauser M18, 30.06 with what was likely a 3x12-44 Vortex scope ..

The way the rifle and scope was put together just looked odd...note how the scope fits on the rifle and where the eye relief would place the shooters head

Was there a suppressor on the barrel? Photo cuts off the end of the barrel...the only thing I have heard sounded more like a suppressed echo than unsuppressed report...but, not a sound expert

140'ish shot...if you can hold the gun steady at all, prone from that roof would be a layup and provide a lot of room for error...while I have seen folks who swear by neck shooting deer and bears; that's just not a thing otherwise.

“It was miraculous. It was almost no trick at all, he saw, to turn vice into virtue and slander into truth, impotence into abstinence, arrogance into humility, plunder into philanthropy, thievery into honor, blasphemy into wisdom, brutality into patriotism, and sadism into justice. Anybody could do it; it required no brains at all. It merely required no character.”
Joseph Heller, Catch 22
Thunderstruck xx
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I was really hoping that the power of the redneck autists on the OB could solve who shot Charlie Kirk. LET'S GO!
Captain Winky
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Take this back to the Politics board.
BenderRodriguez
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AG
Captain Winky said:

Take this back to the Politics board.


Deranged leftists shooting at political opponents is frequently outdoors.
cavjock88
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AG
OK, I'll bite for the following being outdoors and to go back to F16. Deranged idiot shooter who should burn. He was a bit off to the right of Kirk, as he was looking out, when the shooter got off an unfortunate shot made at center mass that hit something (collar bone or vest) in his upper right quadrant and deflected to the upper left neck and killed him. We've all seen it. Shots in and out while hunting in our world after hitting non soft tissue. It doesn't belong here, though.
Captain Winky
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So go discuss it on one of the other 45 threads about this topic. Do you feel this is not being discussed enough on F16 and that it is really necessary to bring it over here?

Isn't this supposed to be a forum about the Outdoors and enjoying them? The killing of a political figure has nothing to do with the outdoors. Why can't you just keep your politics contained on the forum dedicated to discussing politics and leave this sh/t out of here?
Animal
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AG
With a post title like "Will we ever really know the truth about Kirk murder?"

I would think it would be very easy to skip over if you don't want to read about it again. It is absolutely appropriate and normal to seek the opinions of folks who routinely shoot large mammals and have seen the effects of various bullets and calibers on those animals.

That leads me to believe that whatever your disdain is for this topic is personal and clouding your judgement about this posting.

So, even if it is not OK with you, we will continue this discussion with or without your approval.
aggiedent
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AG
BenderRodriguez said:

Captain Winky said:

Take this back to the Politics board.


Deranged leftists shooting at political opponents is frequently outdoors.


Thing is, I personally consider this forum to be a lot more fact based than the politics forum, a lot less emotionally wrought, and a ton less of an echo chamber.

Yet right off the bat, the OP makes some weird claim about the shooter getting lucky because the bullet deflected off a vest and we're already making assumptions (probably correctly……but still) about the guy's motive.

Nah………that's politics forum stuff…….not outdoors.
BenderRodriguez
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AG
12% of your posts on are the politics forum.

Whatever times I have posted on f16 is so low it falls under my 0.4% (other) category.

I'm not bringing anything over from F16, because I dont post there. You might be projecting here.
hoodlum98
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AG
What I am having a hard time understanding is the location of the shooter versus the path of the bullet. Everything I've seen says he was on the building directly in front of Kirk, but the bullet cam from Kirk's right through his neck to the left. Kirk was facing the building that they say he was on but that just does not make sense.
Captain Winky
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Is my forum posting percentage supposed to be some sort of gotcha? As you very astutely pointed out, yes I have engaged in discussion about political topics on the POLITICS board.

My comment was geared towards the premise of this post, not really your direct actions. Again, there is a forum dedicated to politics where political things should be discussed. Your or my posting percentage on another forum has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.
BCStalk
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Whether it belongs on this board or not, every single person needs to understand the importance of this event. Charlie Kirk did not just stand up for the second amendment, he also stood up for family. Until the extremists on both sides can turn down the volume significantly and focus on honesty, respect, and responsibility, we will remain in such a divided country that seems to be leading to bloodshed and kids who will never be able to hug their fathers or mothers again.
zooguy96
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AG
Some people communicate honestly and respectfully.
Some people don't. Those people are the problem.

Reasonable Americans are not the problem…..
I know a lot about a little, and a little about a lot.
schmellba99
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AG
hoodlum98 said:

What I am having a hard time understanding is the location of the shooter versus the path of the bullet. Everything I've seen says he was on the building directly in front of Kirk, but the bullet cam from Kirk's right through his neck to the left. Kirk was facing the building that they say he was on but that just does not make sense.

Bullet hit him just left of center in the neck, exited out the back left. Shooter was just slightly to the right of center, assuming he shot from where everybody says he shot from. If the projectile hit his spinal cord, which most think it probably did, a slight deflection would be expected and normal.

I know everybody loves a conspiracy theory - I do too. But not everything is a conspiracy and the basic facts on this one are pretty cut and dried and point to a single lunatic shooter making a not that hard of a shot who likely missed the center of mass he was most likely aiming for and instead hit him in the neck and killed a guy who, by almost all accounts (that matter) was a hell of a good guy who was doing good work.
TwoDogs
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Quote:

Mauser M18, 30.06



Just curious as to where this specific Mauser has been referenced. Mauser list a M18 at something like $1200.
DVM97
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AG
Well said!
Horse with No Name
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No, piss off. I posted here because this is a forum that is much more knowledgeable about firearms, ballistics, talks conspiracy all the time.
Ridin' 'cross the desert. . .
Horse with No Name
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Nope, op didn't say say chit about vest or deflection
Ridin' 'cross the desert. . .
The Sun
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TwoDogs said:

Quote:

Mauser M18, 30.06



Just curious as to where this specific Mauser has been referenced. Mauser list a M18 at something like $1200.



The police report stated it was a Mauser 98.
lexofer
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AG
Century Arms imported Mauser M98's and sporterized them with synthetic stocks and converted into 30-06 and .270. They called it the "Centurion 98 Sporter". Based on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewehr_98



TwoDogs
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OK thanks, I'm familiar with the Gewehr 98 apparently the 18 was a typo. But since the M18 is a current production though I'd ask.
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