Army NGSW competition (guns/ammo update)

20,691 Views | 77 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by agwrestler
Ulysses90
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AG
The procurement price of the XM7 is unaffordable even if the performance of the weapon and ammo are exactly as claimed. The price of the rifle is $4,400 and the FCS is $11,300 for a total of $15,700 per soldier.

Suppose that for comparison we use the M27 (made by H&L based on the short stroke piston 416) rather than the M4A1 as an example since the Marine Corps has already equipped all of its infantry with M27s and the M4A1s are only for support units. The contract price of the M27 when the last IDIQ was awarded was $1300 per rifle. A Trijicon VCOG is ~$2500. An M27 with a VCOG is still only $3800 or less than 25% of what the Army proposes to spend on the XM7 weapon.

Since the invention of gunpowder, 95% of infantry rifle engagements have taken place at distances of less than 300m. If hitting targets beyond 500m is the use case for the XM7 and 6.8x51mm cartridge then it is optimizing for engagements at ranges that are primarily the domain of snipers with special rifles and comprise probably less than 2% of infantry combat.

The weight of equipment that the average infantryman can carry is finite and no amount of money will change that. Ounces==pounds==pain. The weight of the XM7 and ammo is significantly more than the M27. A 33% reduction in the number of rounds that a soldier can carry arithmetically requires that the consistent accuracy of the shooter must increase by 50% to have the same lethality. The anecdotal evidence doesn't indicate that the XM7 and the FCS have produced a magical 50% increase in accuracy. If they carry more than seven magazines, they will have to not carry some other piece of equipment because a soldier's load directly impacts his speed, range, and endurance.

The properties of steel alloys are not going to change significantly. Most AR barrels are made of 4140 steel with proprietary heat treatments and quenching and chrome lining in the bores. Sig Sauer has never advertised that the MCX Spear or the XM7 have any revolutionary metallurgy in the design. If that assumption is correct, the service life of the barrel and the bolt of the XM7 is going to be far less than the 5.56mm NATO or 7.62mm NATO weapons. The relationship between chamber pressure and barrel fatigue and erosion is not linear. The increase from 62,366psi for a 5.56mm NATO chamber to the 77,000psi for the 6.8x51mm XM7 cartridge is not going to produce a corresponding 23% decrease in barrel life. It's probably going to be closer to a 40% reduction in barrel life.

Short barrel life matters a lot because the Army will end up having to provision for 60% more rifle barrels and bolts and those will have to be available at the forward support units and not at maintenance depots.

As mentioned in the article linked above, the 6.8x51mm cartridge has a surface danger zone that is closer to a .50 BMG than to a 7.62mm or 5.56mm round. The SDZ for .50 BMG is 7200m and for 7.62mm and 5.56mm the SDZ is 3600m. Oddly, the SDZ for the 6.8x51mm cartridge has not been released to the public. It's probably because the Army has 659 centrally funded small arms ranges and only about 10% of those can accommodate .50 BMG. In other words, the Army would be at a 90% deficit of the number of training ranges needed to train soldiers equipped with the XM7 service ammunition. They are not going to make that admission to Congress.

The Army simply doesn't have the budget to buy additional land or modify existing ranges to accommodate the XM7 combat ammunition. So, PEO Soldier has already decided that there will be a 6.8x51mm reduced charge training cartridge that will be used until units are deployed to combat, at which time they will get the combat ammunition. This acknowledges that the RCTM cartridge will have different ballistics than the combat ammunition and the weapons will have to be zeroed again when soldiers deploy for operational missions. It is really surprising that they are accepting that soldiers will train with different ammunition from that with which they will fight.

None of this makes sense to me. There just isn't that much improvement in lethality to be had with a "better rifle." The current M4A1 has mechanical precision that exceeds the skill of nine out of ten military shooters, if not 19 out of 20.
UTExan
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Amazing to me that NATO never seriously considered 7 mm Mauser as a viable combat round. Lighter weight/recoil for troop carry, accurate, not too tough on rifle actions and plenty of ballistic energy at longer ranges.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
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Swing Your Saber
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BLUF: 5.56 NATO is an ineffective round which never should have been adopted & should have been replaced decades ago. The last twenty years of experience & research have only reinforced this. Both in theater & hog hunting in Texas: 5.56 has unacceptable terminal ballistics.

I originally started writing a really long post with citations but lost it. So I fed all the citations into Grok & had it draft the following:


Research suggests the 5.56 NATO has poor terminal ballistics in several key areas: inconsistent stopping power (requiring multiple hits in combat), limited penetration against body armor, and reduced effectiveness at longer ranges. Scientific studies (Ragsdale, Fackler, Kneubuehl) show its reliance on fragmentation leads to inconsistent wounding, especially beyond 200-300 meters or in denser tissues. Combat reports from Vietnam to Afghanistan (Proceedings, IADB) confirm it often requires multiple hits to incapacitate, failing to meet AMED's criteria for rapid disruption of vital structures. Hunting regulations (Virginia DWR) and analyses (Outdoor Life, Field & Stream) highlight its inadequacy for medium game, paralleling human targets. Gelatin tests (The Wound Channel, Lucky Gunner) reveal narrow wound tracks when fragmentation fails, and its inability to penetrate modern armor further limits its utility.


Key Citations
Comparison of the terminal ballistics of full metal jacket 7.62 mm M80 (NATO) and 5.56 mm M193 military bullets: a study in ordnance gelatin (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3385379/)

Wound ballistics. A review of common misconceptions

The wound profile: A visual method for quantifying gunshot wound components (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/1916018_Scientific_Evidence_for_Hydrostatic_Shock)

Wound Ballistics: Basics and Applications

Preparation of ballistic gelatine review and proposal for a standard method

A thorax surrogate for ballistic experiments (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S002192900600297X)

Autopsy features relevant for discrimination between entrance and exit wounds in low-velocity gunshots: An empirical study (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00414-002-0315-9)

The effect of weapons: Defining humanitarian requirements for less lethal weapons (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13623699608409303)

Biophysical mechanisms in avian auditory tissue damage from high-intensity sound (https://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.1912796)

The US M-16 rifle versus the Russian AK-47 rifle (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/16261467_The_US_M-16_rifle_versus_the_Russian_AK-47_rifle_A_comparison_of_terminal_ballistics)

Civilian gunshot wounds: Outpatient management (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6749255/)

Gunshot Wounds: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques

It's the Cartridge, StupidNot the Rifle (https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2002/may/its-cartridge-stupid-not-rifle)

Biting the Silver Bullet 4: Lethality of the 5.56 NATO Caliber (https://www.indiandefensenews.in/2022/03/biting-silver-bullet-4-lethality-of-556.html)

Is There a Problem with the Lethality of the 5.56 NATO Caliber? (https://sadefensejournal.com/is-there-a-problem-with-the-lethality-of-the-556-nato-caliber/)

5.56 M855A1 vs. 7.62 M80A1 in Ballistic Gelatin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=example)

5.56 NATO Ammo Testing (https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-nato-ammo-test/)

Can You Use a .223 For Deer Hunting? Is it Too Light?

223 Rem Okay for Hunting Deer?

Which states prohibit deer hunting with .223 rifles?

Is the .223 Remington a Good Deer-Hunting Cartridge? (https://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/guns-and-ammo/2020/03/223-remington-good-deer-hunting-cartridge/)

The Best Deer Hunting Calibers (https://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/hunting/2019/10/best-deer-hunting-calibers/)

Ehrhart, T. P. (2009). Taking Back the Half-Kilometer. U.S. Army. Available at: http://www.m14.ca/publications/Taking-Back-Half-Kilometer.pdf

Swing Your Saber
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1) The Army should have adopted the 6.5 Grendel or some similar round; or developed a better round with comparable weight but improved lethality & range.

2) 5.56 NATO is ineffective & needs to be replaced (see above post, which was originally closer to a Dostoevsky novel than a TexAgs post).

3) 277 Fury is the wrong answer.
A) 277 Fury chamber pressure is too high, it weighs too much, it's recoil is too great, it's cost is too high, some of these problems will be mitigated but never eliminated.
B) We would have been better going with the well established 7.62 NATO or even better 6.5 Creedmore if we wanted to transition away from the "assault rifle" era back to a "battle rifle" era. Have a single cartridge with adequate lethality & an extended range.
Ulysses90
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AG
No longer experimental or developmental. NGSW is type designated as the M7 and M250. This is the production model without any major changes expected to the design.

https://soldiersystems.net/2025/05/21/project-manager-soldier-lethality-announces-type-classification-approval-for-next-generation-squad-weapons-ngsw/

74OA
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AG
Like any new system, the base production M7/M250 will be modified and upgraded as usage data accumulates. Recall the extensive mods to the M16/M4 over the decades.

As Sig points out in this article, based on soldier feedback there are engineering change proposals and product improvement efforts already in work. It would only be surprising if this wasn't the case.

M7

Ulysses90
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AG
The pricing of the ECP for the M7A1 is eagerly anticipated by the board and L&O Holding. Probably not as eagerly anticipated at OSD CAPE.

agwrestler
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AG
I still don't understand selecting a heavy built short action AR-10...

A similarly ridiculous DOD decision would be awarding Lockheed the NGAD contract with an F-55 # DOUBLEWIDEAMY.
 
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