Don't love the pressing

2,724 Views | 32 Replies | Last: 6 days ago by 91AggieLawyer
Redfishag93
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Rarely are we tuning anyone over.

We create constant numbers disadvantages. We are in a continual 2 on 1 or 3 on 2 positions from a defensive standpoint.

I don't like those odds.

Especially when we play nothing but good sec teams.

We literally create offense for the other teams by being so spread out.

I fear we are about to start giving up huge numbers.

I can't tell you how many possessions agsinst Jacksonville where they didn't score, where I was thinking…"that's another easy bucket in the sec".

Prove me wrong.
Please.
bobinator
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AG
There's sort of two levels here:

1) "Rarely are we turning people over" - This is just objectively false. We're 18th in the country in turnover percentage defense, it's the only reason we're even remotely good from a defensive metrics standpoint, and it's not just the absolutely awful teams turning it over. UCF and Florida State turned it over more than 20% of the time. You could argue it hasn't worked against the two best teams we've faced in SMU and OSU but I'd probably argue that we sucked at it against OSU and it was starting to work against SMU until that game turned into a free throw contest and let SMU off the hook from a conditioning standpoint. And even if it was just the awful teams turning it over, it's a big reason why none of those games have even been remotely close except for Montana.

2) It assumes we'd be better just dropping back into a halfcourt defense, AND it assumes we'd be better overall if we played half court basketball. - We're not very good at half court defense either, and part of the whole idea of pressing with this team is to get the other teams deeper into their bench. We're not going to do that if we're playing a low possession half court game. We're going to sacrifice some defense to try and keep the game at the tempo we want it to be at because we're better on offense if the other team can't set their defense either.
bingram1230
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I get the dislike of easy transition points and numbers advantages, but after watching it so far, I like it better than I thought I would but I also believe we don't have the best roster to run it this year.

I haven't been as frustrated as I thought and Bucky seems to know when to dial it up to super aggressive or just a slow down them bringing the ball up pace depending on situations and matchups.

We will see how it goes in SEC play but I haven't been neutral on it so far, or even slightly positive
Redfishag93
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Turnover percentage forced surprises me.
It doesn't feel like we are forcing many, but maybe I just need to pay closer attention.

I hope you're right. My fear is we're gonna give up points in large bunches against good competition.

Good teams with a couple of capable ball handlers and athletic lob catchers and knock down shooters might be drooling.
bobinator
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I definitely think we're going to get shredded a few times. Especially by the teams that want to play at tempo also like Vandy and Alabama. They might drop 150 on us.

But I also think we're getting better at it.

Our full court defense was definitely making an impact in the SMU game until all of the fouls got the game slowed down so much.
Method Man
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Ags hire Jim Boeheim.

"I don't like the 2-3 zone"
TheDecadeSapling
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bobinator said:

I definitely think we're going to get shredded a few times.


I think it's also important to note for the people who haven't been watching much that Bucky is aware of this fact and has stated it himself multiple times.
greg.w.h
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One of the goals is a mental wear and tear. Kind of like the difference between driving an open highway v city traffic.

You can see it from time to time as they game to break our press.
bobinator
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I wasn't sure how I was going to feel about it either but so far I like it. As expected, we're not just absolutely suicidal about it, we seem to crank the pressure up or down depending on the situation. Again, I thought it was starting to have a real impact on the SMU game and then that game flow kind of went sidways.

It's also like anything else with this roster, certain lineups are way better at it than others.

And like Gregbot said it does seem to have a cumulative effect as games go both physically and mentally, very similar to Buzz's psycho defense or (good comp Method!) Boeheim's 2-3 matchup at Syracuse back when teams weren't used to seeing that.

When they're mentally focused early in games they can break it down pretty easily, but it gets more effective as the game goes on.
GrayMatter
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The scheme isn't just about making opponents turn the ball over, but about speeding up the game.

It makes the opposing offense want to go faster than it wants to resulting in them taking a bad shot.

Like Bob says, we're a team that is better equipped to play this way than playing a half court defense. That SMU big was having his way with us until he got in foul trouble.
Seven Costanza
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Method Man said:

Athletic Director/Donors hire Jim Boeheim.

Fans: "I don't like the 2-3 zone"

Seems more reasonable when we don't pretend that the fans selected the coach. Not that I feel strongly either way about the scheme.
greg.w.h
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It does trim time off their possession and can turn them over with a ten-second violation, too.
Detmersdislocatedshoulder
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bobinator said:

I definitely think we're going to get shredded a few times. Especially by the teams that want to play at tempo also like Vandy and Alabama. They might drop 150 on us.

But I also think we're getting better at it.

Our full court defense was definitely making an impact in the SMU game until all of the fouls got the game slowed down so much.



tbis is my feeling as well. we're not perfect and we will get smoked a few times but tbis style gives us our best odds. we are very deep from a guard perspective which is one of our advantages. our half court defense is not a strength so we have to take the good with the bad from a tempo perspective
bobinator
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This is kind of a philosophical post that maybe belongs on the vibe check thread, but basketball is an interesting mindset for our fans because men's basketball is really the only major sport that, in a broad sense, we're at a competitive disadvantage in.

In every other sport we're basically at even footing (or better in some cases) with the elite programs in the country from the standpoint of our ability acquire players, hire coaches, build facilities, etc. We do not always maximize this ability all the time, but it's there. Coaches in other sports (with the very famous exception in a very specific situation in baseball) don't generally leave us for other jobs.

But Men's basketball is the exception. Every coach we've had recently with any kind of success has been hired away by someone else.

Which isn't to say we're like the sisters of the poor or anything, but we are not on even footing with the elite programs in this sport. We are not going to put the best roster on the floor, we're not going to hire proven high level coaches (Buzz was about as proven a coach as we could ever dream of hiring), etc.

So that means you can either settle for mediocrity, or you can try to find some way to gain a competitive advantage. With Bucky, that's going to be our style of play. He has been recruiting at a really high level, but we're still not going to put the kind of talent on the floor that the really elite teams are, so we're going to try and make up that gap with a unique playing style.

Our offense is not particularly unique, all of college basketball is trending towards tempo, spacing and three point shooting. But what is unique is the defense we're pairing it with. So we'll see if it ultimately works, but I'm willing to ride or die with it for a couple of years because if we bail on it then we're just trying to play the same game that everyone else is.
halfastros81
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^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well stated imo.
GrayMatter
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If it doesn't work, we'll have to play the same like everyone else and will struggle to keep the momentum that Buzz built up.

If it works, Bucky will eventually end up getting hired by a blue blood school.

Sound about right?
Ag1188
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Full court press is also good for running 8 seconds off the shot-clock.
bobinator
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GrayMatter said:

If it works, Bucky will eventually end up getting hired by a blue blood school.

Sound about right?

I always look at this is "probably but not definitely."

There's always the chance that this thing just clicks and the fans start buying in and the money starts flowing and he wants to stay and keep elevating this place.

That's all you can do when you have the right coach that the fans have bought into. You fight like hell to keep them, and then if you can't, you go find the next guy and try again.

What you can't do is pull a Bill Byrne and get all emo that you keep losing coaches and hire a coach that's lower on the list because you think your odds of keeping them long term are better.
BQ_90
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Did that happen or did we go to BK because of how late in the game the job opening came? Also i think we had announce our move to the SEC, so cash flow was an issue since we didn't get last year of the B12 money as a penalty.

bobinator
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It wasn't JUST that, but I think it played a factor in deciding between our final few candidates.
BQ_90
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but IMO the hire wasn't bad, it was the extensions. We louse up the extensions damn near every time.
bobinator
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Yeah the hire wasn't bad. It just wasn't my preferred choice and I think that is part of why Byrne went with BK which I thought was a dumb reason. If you really think he's the best option fine, but I think Byrne factored keep-ability into the decision.

Don't even get me started on all of the decisions after that.
GoodAg Paulie
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greg.w.h said:

One of the goals is a mental wear and tear. Kind of like the difference between driving an open highway v city traffic.

You can see it from time to time as they game to break our press.


This is my take as well. We go way deep in our bench to keep fresh legs on the court. The pressing and pressure should wear teams down a bit as an Dvantage down the stretch
Method Man
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Seven Costanza said:

Method Man said:

Athletic Director/Donors hire Jim Boeheim.

Fans: "I don't like the 2-3 zone"

Seems more reasonable when we don't pretend that the fans selected the coach. Not that I feel strongly either way about the scheme.


Not pretending. This was just known the second he was hired. If you don't like it it's gonna be a long 3-? years but I get it.
CDub06
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Bucky has said since day one, that sometimes our style will get us burnt on defense and the fans will scream about it. But he plays the odds and overall, it's a winning strategy for him.
bobinator
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CDub06 said:

Bucky has said since day one, that sometimes our style will get us burnt on defense and the fans will scream about it. But he plays the odds and overall, it's a winning strategy for him.

One of the things I like most about him, though I liked this about Buzz too, is that he knows if you're going to zig instead of zag you have to zig all the way. You can't just dip your toes in it.

This is something that drove me nuts about Kennedy is we'd try something new and we'd roll it out against some crap team and have some success but as soon as it failed against a good one we were out.

If you're going to try and tilt the game somehow, you have to be completely committed. Which means that yes, sometimes it's going to absolutely blow up in your face.
Kansas Kid
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It also should help with recruiting. This brand of ball is what the kids want to play and are used to in summer and high school ball. In elite travel ball near me, most high level teams shoot the ball inside less than 15-20 seconds and they love to press most of the time.
bobinator
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I think it helps in recruiting in two ways. One, like you said, players want to play in this kind of system. But two, we can recruit players that might be great in our system but might not be great all-around prospects.
Rec
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I love the style, love the aggressiveness… in the end you are physically competing and while the aggressor doesn't always win, they usually do.
Aston04
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If our rim protectors did a better job, I'd like it better. The tall dude from tech has done a really poor job of that from when I've watched.
bobinator
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There's no question this roster isn't exactly ideal for it. We don't have a lot of length that also has lateral quickness. We need some Solomon Washington body types.
Method Man
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bobinator said:

There's no question this roster isn't exactly ideal for it. We don't have a lot of length that also has lateral quickness. We need some Solomon Washington body types.

MENSA
91AggieLawyer
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bobinator said:

There's no question this roster isn't exactly ideal for it. We don't have a lot of length that also has lateral quickness. We need some Solomon Washington body types.


I was going to say something like this. More along the lines of a few games in is WAY too early to discount either the success or failure of something. This will be personnel driven -- not just from a "we don't have the people here yet" perspective but a training/practice situation where most of the team we do have -- now, and in the future -- will be able to implement this effectively.
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