I appreciate his work, his thoroughness, as well as his consideration of all the plausible future aspects of Bonfire.

As somebody who worked way too much on Bonfire, I'm the first to say I'd love to see it be built & burn again.

But it will never, never be the same. No matter who builds it, cuts it, or lights it.

Just like allowing non-regs & women into the school, changing our name, etc., A&M has gotta evolve or be left in the dust.

Necessary change is good. The allowing non-regs & women into the school was a good, necessary change. This one is, too.

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Necessary change is good.

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Please elaborate on how this is necessary from something other than a CYA legal standpoint.

At what point did this tradition become a necessary change?

At what point did this tradition become a necessary change?


November 18, 1999.

Change? certainly.

However, I don't recall reading anything in the commission's report on the causes of 11/18/99 that could only be solved by the removal of Bonfire.

-

dkeegan@aggies.com
Kyle Field - Where the 12th Man is a standing tradition, home field advantage is defined, and opponents get Marooned

Keegan,

No offense, but when does 2.5M to build a structure to be burnt ever equate to responsible use of taxpayer money?

You are certainly entiled to your opinion but you are certainly in the minority.
Any serious look at the polls taken shows that Bonfire was supported by the rank and file of the student body & former students.
If one wish to remove risk then you have to live in a cave and never come out. This brings to mind the OSHA cowboy. There was so much equipment to keep the cowboy from hurting himself that he was unable to be what was a cowboy.
I could not disagree more with the decision that was made and the reasons given.

[This message has been edited by 74Ag (edited 2/4/2002).]

Bonfire has been reduced to a dollar amount. Never was an issue before; however, in these economically stressful times, it is proven to be yet another "justifiable" PC decision as to why this tradition MUST change, rather than letting the people it directly affects making the appropriate changes where needed.

Dr. Bowen is PC-ing the university to the level of just another school (I use "school" deliberately). At this rate, the stature of being a "world class" university that many have called A&M will fade into obscurity.

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No offense, but when does 2.5M to build a structure to be burnt ever equate to responsible use of taxpayer money?

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Well I do object to the 2.5 million figure. There is no way a stack of logs could cost anywhere near that. I think it was just another thing bowen used to his advantege along with the student and former student "input polls". It was evident to me that the polls never affected the decision in the least bit. Planning for this decision was laid months ago.

Cost 2.5M?

And exactly how much money did they pull in having it on Fox Sports? How much money does the city make off of Bonfire? How much money does the University make on Bonfire-related licenced products. How many new student's first experience was seeing it burn and selected A&M over tu or another lesser school?

The 2.5 was an investment, and it reaped easily 5 times that amount to the University and the City.

Money is not the issue, lack of guts to do a job right is.

"Necessary Change" = 12 Lives Lost

Folks, I'd love to see it burn again, but not at the cost of another life. And, unfortunately, there is absolutely no guarantee to Bonfire's safety - just like there are no guarantees in life.

Sure, there's some CYA in this. There needs to be. If another injury, much less death, to a student because of Bonfire or a Bonfire related activity where to happen, you wouldn't have to worry about the lawyers coming to get A&M. A&M would be demolished in the press, in the State Legislature, and in Washington, DC. There would be absolutely no sympathy from anyone towards our institution.

End result? Better safe than sorry. It's the right decision, even when it hurts.

Under that criteria, Bonfire should have ended years ago since those students died on the way back from cut. Football should have ended back in the early 1900's. NASCAR should have ended when Earnhardt crashed into the wall.

Those twelve students died in an accident. Just like anyone might the moment they go get in a car. Thousands of people die exercising every year.

To not do something because there is risk is not the correct path. Try to make things safer. Try to find better methods. Never quit perfecting the process. But the important thing is to never quit.

Not having a pile of burning logs in November is not what upsets me most in loosing Bonfire. What upsets me most is loosing a great tradition which bonds Aggies of all ages together.

Most people wouldn't understand why I care so much that Bonfire won't be here in 2002 because I won't be here either. What upsets me is the fact that my brother and sister will be here one day and won't have the experience of the greatest tradition.

Loosing Bonfire is another step toward Bowen's 20/20 vision. This vision is making A&M just another school. Soon, we will not be able to distinguish ourselves from the school down the road.

the money issue is complete b.s., as was explained earlier in this thread. the safety issue is b.s. as well. no one denies how horrible it was to lose those 12 ags...we think about them every day. however, no one is forced to participate in bonfire. asked, coaxed, persuaded...yes. but no one is forced. participation should be left up to the individual, and they should be held accountable for their actions. no one willingly working on bonfire thought it would cause a tragedy, but it happened. so safety should be an issue of highest importance, but if someone wants to work on bonfire, they should be able to work on bonfire. and this is a bonfire...not a tea party. there is no way to ELIMINATE risk. should we eliminate all sources of risk at all universities. did they demolish the bell tower at t.u. after that tragedy? were countless buildings at campuses around the nation closed after distraught students committed suicide? would kyle field be closed if a football player was killed on it? as horrible and outlandish as these things sound...they are all similar in situation to bonfire. no one expects bad things to happen, but they can and will. it's all a matter of personal decision...one that was taken away from aggies(for the time being) this afternoon.

Ray turned out to be a quitter. Sad. I want him to sign tonite!! Don't wait till June. Your have failed.

"But there’s a spirit can ne’er be told ...
It’s the spirit of Aggieland."

wxguy, you NAILED it. I'm NOT going to work tommorrow, selling my boat, my Harley, 4-wheeler, shotguns, pistols, and I'll never run on the road again. It's just too dangerous.

No more Pee-Wee football, skiing, planes, trains, and automobiles. The automatic transmission was to be the doom of us all.

CHANGE IS GOOD

EVOLVING INTO THE FUTURE... also good


****ting on the past and present?

Hmm change is good......

W/out past u don't have future and past and present are what make individual or group special. So if u try to draw out past u are not u anymore.

Now Bonfire is not the only past we had and it dosen't make us. But fact is every small bits and pieces like bonfire are what make AGGIES so special. If u draw every past and tradition away we are no different from the t-cips. In my opinion Aggies are all about Unity. And tradition such as bonfire, yell pratice aggie rings are what united us as an Aggies.

We do have to move toward future soon or later. But instead of just moving on by drawing our past away it will be wise for us to balance out the future and past.

Although I am about as "red" as they come (worked on bonfire 5 years), I feel that if we continued bonfire it would never be the same. The "bonding" experience has been lost. The point of bonfire was not only the the Aggie
spirit, but the strong relationship and bonds that were built during the 4-5 month construction period. We CANNOT afford to lose anymore lives. When I was in school, we lost a life (ran over by a tractor - no one seems to remember that one). This is unacceptable. The collapse of the stack in '99 should have never happened. It will Never be what it was. We need to find a new tradition. This is not the first time we've had new traditions. Remember how silly we all thought those stupid "little white towels" were??

When people say "all Bowen cares about is the cost," it really pisses me off. While I think Bowen cares about more than that, that has to be a major deciding factor. HELLO PEOPLE!!! We live in America. What ISN'T decided by the bottom line?!?!? Spending 2.5 million dollars on burning a stack of wood (which is what this would be...it wouldn't be "Bonfire") is wasteful spending.

What I thought was interesting was that in the Bonfire poll, a majority of students said they wanted a Bonfire. But when asked if they would support a fee to pay for it, they said no. So where do they want this money to come from? I guess alumni and/or taxpayers. I'm sure the taxpayers of Texas would be delighted to hear that we torched $2.5 million dollars while at the same time we are claiming we don't get appropriated enough money by the legislature to keep our academic standards up to par.

Oh yeah....Bowen is the idiot (note sarcasm)....you people amaze me.

[This message has been edited by AGGIE03 (edited 2/5/2002).]

Great Post, AGGIE03!

Great post, Pink & '03... nicely done.

It's about lives, nothing else.

Aggie03 - You seem very worried about taxpayer money being spent on bonfire. Worry no more! I'll pay for it myself. Now that money is no longer an issue, what's your next excuse?

JDW1998 - I do not like seeing lives lost either. But since you feel this strongly that this activity should stop due to the potential of a life being lost, then I would like to know what are you doing about cars? Do you drive one? Are you actively protesting their existence? What about sports? Do you watch them? Are you actively protesting their existence? Hypocrite?

Jeff Hamilton '82

Think about it for 2.5 million you could buy a house in RiverOaks in Houston and burn it down.... that would be bigger than Bowen's limits.. my point is that the dollar value that was estimated is absurd think of what kind of HOUSE you could build new less than the cost of bonfire.... the dollar values just don't add up....

I'd love to hear responses to this

[This message has been edited by Derrick01 (edited 2/5/2002).]

I don't think the 2.5 million figure simply covers the cost of cutting down trees and the time to put the project together and go through with the final bonfire. It likely includes the cost of insurance for implementing bonfire. More than likely there would be/will be claims for injuries - and God forbid - perhaps death. This has all turned into the type of cost/benefit anaylsis that automakers have gone through in the past - ex. the Ford Pinto - it likely would cost too much in claims for injury and death in insurance claims and suits vs. Ford to continue producing the car.

When you set up parameters that you know can not be accomplished, then you basically kill the project before it gets started. That's what Bowen did - intentionally! Instead of having "the committee", a committee, safety group, etc., look at the history of Bonfire, the evolution of its construction and the cutting area, all of the accidents and their causes, the supervision and any ther aspect that could be thought of. THEN-come up with recommendations as to how to have a safe Bonfire. Instead, Bowen built the box and would let no one outside.
I have no doubt that if this had been done the proper way, then costs and liability would not have been the factors that Bowen claimed they were. Furthermore, I have no doubt that the Aggie family would have more than paid for it with some extra thrown in for the future.

IMHO, the only conclusion I can come to is that Bowen planned this operation to fail. He created the parameters to guarantee that it would fail and then sadly announces that it has failed, at least till he's out of office. In that I am sadly disappointed even more.

footballfan--It's not an excuse. It's a valid reason. There's a big difference.

The Bonfire report talked about tunnel vision. I fear many of us suffer from this condition. Open your eyes, and look at the facts! I've already swallowed my pride. Maybe if you do too, you can see how illogical it is to have another Bonfire.

[This message has been edited by AGGIE03 (edited 2/5/2002).]

Great decision Dr. Bowen!

If you use these arguments, bonfire would have never been rebuilt when it fell in 1994. Everyone can make a great decison in retrospect, but if you would have ended it then, over $12 million dollars would have been saved and everyone associated with Bonfire would still be alive today.

No I do not agree that this was a great decision. I think it is an awful decision. Bowen has basically said that we cannot come up with a feasible, safe, and reasonable alternative. I expect more out of a world class university and your confidence in this University Dr. Bowen means that you never had the University's interest at heart. You never should have been president.

Bring on Bonfire 2002 NOW!

Back when Reed Arena was built, there was a terrible accident where a crane line snapped and things fell and people were hurt and killed. It was a disaster. Reed Areana should have never been finished, and there should never be any construction on the A&M campus again. I don't understand why Ray is allowing this crazy idea of a "South End-Zone Expansion" to continue. Doesn't he realize that such a project would cost millions for materials and insurance, and put people at risk?

I just don't get it.

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12 deaths in 100 years of bonfire is a damn good record

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Let's just perpetuate the myth that Aggies are stupid, why don't we?

Aggie03 - Since I am willing to pay for the cost of Bonfire, would you agree to remove it from your list of "valid reasons not to have bonfire"? Now what's next on your list of "valid reasons not to have bonfire"?

footballfan--No because I highly doubt you have $2.5 million to fund it. Therefore cost is still relevant. Since I haven't seen you come forward publicly with a check in hand, my first point about cost still stands.

[This message has been edited by AGGIE03 (edited 2/5/2002).]

footballfan--My next reason is safety. If we can't get ONE safety firm to take up Bonfire out of 600+ firms, it must not be safe. But I guess you, in all your infinite wisdom, know more about safety than 600+ professional safety firms. When you can find one willing to take up Bonfire, then we can talk about having one.

Unless of course you own a safety firm, where you made your millions no doubt, and want to take up Bonfire...then of course I'll have to come up with another reason for you.

[This message has been edited by AGGIE03 (edited 2/5/2002).]

football fan-- A third reason is image. If someone working on Bonfire even does something as minor as breaking a bone, we will look like complete idiots. Not to mention the fact that if someone gets killed we'll look like a bunch of incompetent morons who didn't get the message the first time.

Lots of people say that our public image is not important and that Bowen is just doing this to be PC. I say that is BULL****. Since when does a public university's image not matter?

Now maybe you also own a PR firm and can save our University's image after another Bonfire accident...then I guess I'll have to come up with another reason.

[This message has been edited by AGGIE03 (edited 2/5/2002).]