Bonfire is not just a one night event or even a one month event, Bonfire is a year long process. You don't see all the people getting the land to cut trees, organizing the dorms/outfits, getting all the legal paperwork done. Unless you are directly involved with this process, just show up at the final event and "see you when it burns!"

This young man 19 hours shy of graduating thinks it's pretty important to have that sheepskin first. What good is all that networking gonna do for you if you fail to get your degree? And please, you're what 35 years old? Far from being the sage wise man you would like to think. Here's my nugget of knowledge for you, don't take a condescending demeanor with people and they'll be more apt to listen.

Are you implying in any way that the only way to make friends and keep them is to put your future and degree at risk?

Given the majority of the traffic on here as of late, I post the following for your considereration:

quote:

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A "Forum Troll" is a person who posts outrageous messages to bait people to answer. Forum Troll delights in sowing discord on the forums. A troll is someone who inspires flaming rhetoric, someone who is purposely provoking and pulling people into flaming discussion. Flaming discussions usually end with name calling and a flame war.


...Sometimes, Forum troll is trying to spin conflicting information, is questioning in an insincere manner, flaming discussion, insulting people, turning people against each other, harassing forum members,...Trolling is a form of harassment that can take over a discussion. Well meaning defenders can create chaos by responding to trolls. The best response is to ignore it, or to report a message to a forum moderator.

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nail on the head

so...pretty much anybody that says something that makes you uncomfortable or makes people think about things they would prefer not to and somebody that incites anger in another is a "forum troll"? Oh no.

Please, how about you stop trying to look around the subject and take it head on for what it is.

All I've done, and others as well, is ask questions that we would like answers to, and I think some other people would like answers to as well. If this is offensive to you, or if anything I have said is offensive to you, please let me know. I don't mean to offend anybody on here, but I think it is a pretty lame cop out to label me a "forum troll" because I say things that make you upset.

I don't want to get into this debate but I will say that when you post two posts in a row, you didn't think hard enough about what you wanted to say the first time. Nothing to do with the debate though.

quote:

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If this is offensive to you, or if anything I have said is offensive to you, please let me know.

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well you have been implying that some people posting here have been lying, and that Bonfire leadership is inept...while this may not affect me directly, I still take offense to it.

Ag, I'm sorry you take offense to criticism.

SO07 et al, the problem is not with asking questions. I have already said that I am all for open constructive debates on pertinent issues. The problem is that once the best POSSIBLE answer is given for the questions, it is never enough. Restating a question over and over and over and over and over again causes the reactions you see from some here. And further, once the answer(s) and/or reason(s) are stated and you don't agree with them, continually pointing out how much you disagree or coming up with new reasons why you don't agree (first, burning on Tuesday was going to bankrupt SB, now it will cause all the fish to fail out), simply makes you look like you have some kind of agenda. Whether that's true or not, that's the perception and that is what is driving the responses you are getting.

I'll admit that many of the answers you and others received were not very well thought out by the forum members that gave them and were a bit too confrontational. Further, none of them had enough info to really even address the questions, but they feel passionate about Bonfire and react in a protective manner. However, you and others have been given answers to your initial questions. I'm sorry they weren't what you wanted to hear or weren't presented by a smarter, more passionate person.

On some issues, our hands are tied, sorry. Not sure what else to say, especially since it seems that none of my responses the last week or so have been read or understood.

I and others in the know want to see a lot more communication and distribution of information, but, right or wrong, the fear of something being taken out of context and used against SB stifles that. Also, some things are off limits by request of the atty. I don't care what POSSIBLE reasons he may have; I don't care if it is public record; I DO care that he is handling those issues on his dime; so his request WILL be honored. There is no attitude of "those that need to know, know." I don't know how much more clear I can make that. If that is detected, it is corrected. Who drank Coke and who drank Pepsi at a meeting is irrelevant, though. So we aren't going to discuss that. Not because "you don't need to know" but because I'm not wasting my time reporting mundane details.

This is my last post on these issues (for real this time ). If you see me in the woods or around town or where ever and want to discuss anything, feel free. No problem. I'm done trying to tread water here though.

Scott Coker '92

coker when are you buying some mineral oil for us to doodle on chalkboards with...

____________________________________________________________
Proudest member of the Fightin Texas Aggie class of 08 Beat the h*** outa tu A-A-A Whoop!!!. May bonfire forever burn in our hearts.....and may the Twelfth Man ever burn it in memory and in hope for the future.

I agree for the most part coker, I'm not caring who drank what where or when. Me and others care if permits have been approved. That's a big deal. The reason I ask over and over is because people insist on spinning an answer for that. It's a "yes" or a "no".

Straight answers will eliminate recurring questions. I'm not here to get an answer I'm looking for, I'm here to get an answer.

As far as the Tuesday burn, SB losing money and it having an adverse affect on grades are not mutually exclusive of one another, just because I discuss one point doesn't mean I can't go to the other as well. Both or legit concerns.

But I do appreciate the way you've handled things. You haven't been a jerk, you've thoughts things out, and I as well as everybody else surely appreciates that kind of conversation.

About this attorney thing. I think it's great somebody is doing Pro Bono work. They know a lot, about the law. If his advice is really doing a number on the group's PR then his advice should at least be looked at a second time. Just because somebody is a lawyer and doing their job for free doesn't mean that they're always right or the advice they're giving is the overall best thing for the organization. This is strictly my opinion however. Just somethin to think about!


[This message has been edited by SquareOne07 (edited 10/26/2006 11:32p).]

"Bonfire first, school second, right Mr. Kaechler?"

This is what you don't get and unfortunately never will. (I am not criticizing the student led bonfire here.)

This is what life WAS like...and boy was it great! You really had to be a good student to do what you loved or what you felt was important. Bonfire was like a job. Anyone with a job and in college understands this...you knew your work schedule and did your school work around it. End of story.

I encourage everyone to stop making crappy excuses and just go even once. Some of my best memories about A&M were made out out at cut or stack...and I got all my school work done and never missed one football game.

It is all about priorities. Back then, Bonfire WAS a priority to the student body. You would have never heard people whine and complain about balancing school work and Bonfire. They just did it.

Stop crying and help keep the Tradition Alive!

Jackie '00

[This message has been edited by sharklady00 (edited 10/29/2006 7:48a).]

Unfortunately, memories don't get you jobs. For those who can manage the two together, great! For those that have a hard time managing their time between two very time consuming things like school and this "work" of Bonfire, well then I guess they're outta luck and just another casuality of others' memories.

I can't believe some of you think it is SO absurd of me to think that while you're in college, either paying or having your parents pay tens of thousands of dollars, school should come first.

I just think you don't understand the concept of Bonfire and what the tradition is really about. This is totally fine. Memories are what college is all about. Maybe you have spent most of your college career on the internet arguing over something you are not apart of. If that works for you, great.

I just feel, as most Old Ags probably do, the tradition of Bonfire is something you really don't know much about but are more than willing to criticize or turn people away from.

Ultimately, college does come first. Thousands of students are in organizations or involved in activites that eat up a huge amount of time. It is the experiences learned while being a member of those organizations that really shape who you are. I can think of my friends who were on the board for numerous student government organizations or knee deep in planning for fish camp. Sure at times it seemed like school became less of a priority, but these are the lessons that were learned in college. It is not all about taking classes.

Maybe you should just let it go and stick with things that you are better at, whatever that may be. Bonfire is not for you and that is just fine. I am sure there are plenty of organizations out there for you, but this is a members only club for those who want to be here for the right reasons. It should be obvious to you that your negativity and lack of knowledge about tradition don't quite fit with the concept of team work.

I encourage you to devote your time to something where you presence is useful.

I'm sorry you don't think I fully grasp the concept of Bonfire or tradition simply because I put more emphasis on school. What a dumb thought, you should really think things out before you type, and to think...you're a teacher, I hope you exercise more caution in the classroom.

I know plenty of what I'm talking about, if you would take care to read what I've said, I think you would notice that. While people may not agree with what I say, they carry on a discussion rather than just accuse me of not knowing anything about A&M because I don't agree with them.

I'm glad you feel credible for teaching me about the other education, I know of it, and am "knee deep" in it quite frequently, thank you for your concern though.

Your last paragraph is absurd. You would do right to edit the entire thing.

"A members only club for those who want to be here for the right reasons"?? Give me a break. "Your negativity and lack of knowledge don't quite fit with the concept of team work"?? Team work isn't about towing the line and doing and believing what others tell you to do.

Few people's idiocy and ignorance frustrate me.

Sorry if anybody else was offended by this, only intended for Shark. That was just a ridiculous post.

I would rather talk to Nick than you. Hi Nick!

Shark, when was the last time you went out to Bonfire?

I don't think at any point I said that you don't know anything about A&M. What you don't know about is the Bonfire of the past. There is no way that you could, so it is wrong to criticize you about something you were not around for.

Bonfire is and was a wonderful thing. Like sports or any organization on campus, it teaches lessons that can't be learned in the classroom. I am so glad to hear that you are involved in school. It is a wonderful school to be dedicated to.

I could be the lesser person and criticize you as a person, but I just can't lower myself to do that. Nor will I call your feelings ignorant or rediculous. Maybe it makes you feel better? Who knows.

I love my university and love what I was apart of. That is why people are Aggies.

Best of luck to you.

Oh, and to answer your question:

Participated (cut and stack) from 1996-2000
Dorm Chair - Soph Year
Women's Bonfire Committee all 4 years
Graduated in 2000.

I wish I could say that I had been to cut or stack since I graduated. Yes, was there in 1999 when it fell. I don't see the point in discussing reasons why I have not made the 3 hour drive on the weekends to participate. As most old ags will tell you, life changes...married, kids, busy career, volunteer organizations, etc...

I would not trade those experiences for anything and would love to get out there to cut one last time.

So we hold on to what we loved and put the donation check in the mail every year.

Seriously, have a wonderful day. It is too nice out to sit inside and be grumpy.

You said I don't know anything about tradition or Bonfire. Take that to be whatever you will. You're right, I don't know much about the Bonfire of the past, but you don't know much about the Bonfire of the present, would that be fair to say?

I agree with you that Bonfire is good for a person as far as the development of the individual. My complaint has been that Bonfire does not take care of it's participants and require minimum academic standards like other organizations do.

You put a donation check in the mail every year to something that you know very little of? I'm all for those who support SB, but I would hope those people at least knew about it, preferable from some first hand experience since it's existed.

I'm sorry I lit into you earlier. I would encourage you to go out and experience this Bonfire. But do so with an open mind, don't love it because it's Bonfire or be skeptical because it's not what you know. It's different, but please don't jump into me for something that you admittedly know little of.

Have a nice day!

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My complaint has been that Bonfire does not...require minimum academic standards like other organizations do.

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Technically, SB doesn't even require that its members be Aggies.

Make that to be what you will. Academic requirements force participants to give attention to their schooling as well.

You talk as if you have gone out more than just once or twice.

What has your experience been like?

Thanks

quote:

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My complaint has been that Bonfire does not...require minimum academic standards like other organizations do.

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In order for an organization to hold an academic requirement, it must be tied to an academic institution; Student Bonfire, is not.

If Student Bonfire was to strictly enforce its members to only be Aggies, there would be an unofficial 2.0 GPA requirement since after a semester or so on scho-pro you would no longer be a student.

If you were to sign a lease on an apartment, the leaser would not enforce that you had to work so many hours per week before you can go out dancing, drinking, partying, playing, hunting, traveling...whatever you wanted. However, if your priorites were not correct enough to put some emphasis on earning money to pay the rent, the leaser would evict you. This holds true for students at A&M, too. If a student holds a part time job while taking classes, it is not the employer's duty to make sure that the employee keeps grades up. It is soley the employee/student's responsibilty.

When an organization places minimum GPA requirements it creates a false security for the student. The student, after graduating, will no longer have outside sources forcing priorities into alignment. It will, in fact, be quite the opposite where the student, as a person, will have to pass some opportunites, and turn down others in order to make/keep their priorities correct.

Square, are you practicing to be a politician? Sure sounds like it. No offense but geeze, why do you care so much about what’s going on in Bonfire if you have no interest in being a part? Instead of sitting behind a computer asking thousands of rhetorical questions why don't you come out to cut or stack and find out for yourself? (I’d even bet if you would cut a week out of posting here on the Bonfire thread you could make time to come out for a full day of cut)

Seems more like you have an agenda to piss people off and what better place to do it than a Bonfire thread, after all I'm sure you realize that those of us that actually care about Bonfire and keeping the tradition around will defend it till the end.

Let the picking apart of my post begin!!


[This message has been edited by REDAG07 (edited 10/30/2006 2:29a).]

I'm not asking any rhetorical questions, they're all intended to have answers. My agenda isn't to piss people off, it's to get answers, sometimes the truth makes people testy though. Keegan is doing similar things actually, why doesn't somebody gonna go yell at him too...I'm sure he feels left out of the action.

I just wish some people would understand that being a part of an organization and caring about it sometimes means being able to objectively critisize it in order to make it better. That doesn't seem to be the case in Bonfire. The attitude seems to be "shutup, you don't know what you're talking about" and "It's BONFIRE, and I'll defend it until I die!!" Which is foolish.

Won't pick that apart though, you thought about it and weren't a jerk. You can foster discussion, that's good.

And I just realized I woke up an hour early...dammit.

Square -

You have given good advice for when I attend a cut and stack for the NEW Bonfire. I think I am capable of forming my own opinions and at my age, I think I can be open minded.

My questions that are still unanswered is your level of experience with the new Bonfire. How many cuts and stacks have you attended to gain your opinion? Surely, if I attended only one cut I should not base my opinion on just one visit.

Please answer my question respectfully.

Tuesday burn is an issue? It shouldn't be. I know I managed to balance studying and Bonfire, as have many many Ags for nearly 100 years.

Having a GPA requirement is such a wacky idea I never saw it coming. I am going to go out on a limb here. First of all there is no requirement because you are supposed to learn responsibility and management. You are responsible for yourself, Bonfire expects you to be make your own decisions. Now here is where I am going to go out on a limb and others will probably disagree with me. Bonfire is a right. It is a right for every Aggie to be part of and grades are not a good reason to deny that part of their college experience.

Also, people are all over you and not Keegan because KeEgan has Bonfire history. It seems like no one has any idea who you are, and often the case if Bonfire people don't know you odds are you don't know Bonfire. I don't know how much experience you have but usually questions are answered by doing.

Shark, sorry for not seeing your question, I didn't mean to dodge it. I worked on it for 2 years. Not super involved, but all in all I'd go out and say...10 cuts and 12-15 stacks? Maybe? It wasn't like I went out once and that was it. I also have some good friends in Bonfire...I have a pretty good exposure to it I guess you could say...

Back to the Tuesday thing again...sigh...well if it won't be a problem for you, that's fantastic, it really is. It will be a problem for others. It will be a problem for more people than a Saturday burn would be. We've pretty much ravaged that topic though, so if you want to know anything else I feel about that, just go through the past week's posts, or I suppose I'll be glad to opine again on the matter if you'd like me to.

If the GPA requirement is such a wacky idea, then how come said requirement is fairly standard M.O. for most serious and involved, as well as reputable, organizations on campus?

So though Keegan and I are similarly frustrated over some of the same issues, only he matters because he has been more involved than me? That's kind of closed minded, don't you think? Questions ought to be addressed, if they're pertinent, regardless of who is asking them.

You and others can continue to tell me to shutup and tell me I have no clue what I'm talking about, but I promise and assure you these issues I've brought up will be addressed in the future by members such as yourself. It takes a little bit of objectivity, like I've said, so if you want what's best for Bonfire, you will be able to constructively critisize it. Or, you and others could follow blindly pretending problems don't exist until it blows up, and all these questions and problems and complaints that could have been addressed quite some time back will cripple your's and others' efforts.

Just because you don't know me doesn't mean others don't, and certainly doesn't mean I'm dumb. You would be smart to listen to somebody else outside of your circle or especially somebody from outside the organization. Just a thought.

[This message has been edited by SquareOne07 (edited 10/30/2006 11:07a).]

Man I am not in a flame war with you. You asked why you were getting the brunt of the flak and I told you a very likely reason. You are right I don't know, well I would probably recognize you actually.

Perhaps other organizations shouldn't use GPR. Trust your members to be responsible. Bonfire isn't trying to hurt students GPR, they are trusting them to make their own decisions.

No, they're incapable of enforcing any such restrictions. That's just more after the fact reasoning. To think that hundreds of organizations have it wrong and Bonfire has it right seems a bit crooked, no?

I'm not accusing you of making this into some sort of flame war, I'm just saying it's foolish to listen to one person and disregard the other when they say some of the same things.

Square, have you noticed how Keegan is just mainly listening...when he asks a question, he gets an answer...if he doesn't like the answer, or disagrees with the answer he states why, and barring any responses directed at him, that is normally the end of his involvement in the conversation on Texags. I presume that, if the issue is important enough he then takes it either to Bonfire leadership or the BOD.

No matter what the response from the leadership or the BOD is, chances are nothing is going to change in the current Bonfire year. This would be comprable to the Big 12 changing the football schedule right now and moving the t.u. game to this comming saturday. You would alienate everybody that has paid attention to the calendar and worked their schedule around it, which, in any situation is more than those who complain about events not being catered to them.

quote:

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No, they're incapable of enforcing any such restrictions. That's just more after the fact reasoning. To think that hundreds of organizations have it wrong and Bonfire has it right seems a bit crooked, no?

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If I am not mistaken, the grade restriction is enforced more by the university than the student orgainzations. If you read through several student organizations' bylaws there is a stipulation that you must be a student (only students can join student organizations) and then the only grade restriction is to be "in good standing with the university"...which means a 2.0 minimum GPA. Once your GPA dips below the 2.0 mark you go on scholastic probation, which means, unless you get your grades up, your days as a student are numbered.

That really didn't make enough sense for me to follow. I appreciate the response, but honestly, I just didn't follow. What you said about grades is just like telling me the sky is blue. LEW pretty much said Bonfire had it right and all the other organizations had it wrong, and I wanna know why that is.

What would happen if SB adopted the same policy that the rest of the university abides by, hypothetically?

LEW said that every Aggie has a right to build Bonfire, not that Bonfire's policy (or lack thereof) about grades is correct.

If Bonfire was to adopt a grade policy that was to keep its members' GPA above a 2.0 then they would have to find some way to get grades reports from students. It would also keep those that need help in classes from meeting new people that could be a very valuable asset as far as studying and tutoring go. Why should meeting new people and making friends you would have never met otherwise have to be restricted to only those people that have a 2.0 or better GPA?

So...those people can stay in school?

It seems that your personal decision is to choose schoolwork over making friends and connections. Others may not have the same point of view. Isn't it possible that some people would rather have many friends and connections (maybe even potential business connections) than spend their entire 3-12 years in college with their nose in a book or their fingers on a keyboard?

Connections will take you far, even if you didn't quite get that degree. Afterall, what is a degree if you're standing behind somebody with their foot already in the door?

[This message has been edited by TexasRebel (edited 10/30/2006 2:59p).]