It seems you've made quite a leap in logic. I don't see how me saying grades are important means that I don't hav any friends or connections or have no interests to you. That's ridiculous.

hmm...I don't remember making any comment about you not having any friends. In fact, I don't remember mentioning you there at all after stating my observation... the only "you" after the first sentence is a general pointer to whoever is reading the post.

[This message has been edited by TexasRebel (edited 10/30/2006 3:41p).]

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What would happen if SB adopted the same policy that the rest of the university abides by,

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I'm not sure that you've grasped what the phrase "Not Affiliated With Texas A&M University" means.

I am compelled to agree with Rebel, friends and connections from Bonfire can help you in the future. Grades show booksmarts, Bonfire shows you real life, not "college life". Be able to keep your life in line or you go down hard.

I know that without the life lessons I learned while building Bonfires, I would not be the man I am today.

But if you guys ever want to be affiliated with the University such a policy might not be a bad idea, hell it might even say to people involved that "yes, we do want you to get a degree, as a matter of fact, doing so is most important"

Agree with whoever all you like, that's fine, debating the importance of connections vs. "booksmarts" is ridiculous and trying to find that perfect mix is stupid. My point is that you can have 100% degree 0% connections or w/e and go farther then 100% "connections" and no degree and you'll end up right where you started. Say what you want or whatever and opine until your blue in the fingertips...this is going nowhere...slowly

SO07,

I think the part of what they are saying to you that you keep missing is that the GPR requirement is unenforceable. There is no way for the leadership to ensure that everyone is "making the grade," as it were. They do not have access to that information. Even if they give lip service to having such a requirement, the University could throw documented cases of people on SchPro working on Bonfire in their faces. It seems like this could end up being a liability to them rather than a boon. It may be better at this point to ask dorm crews to do what they can to focus on grades.

On that note, and I can't speak for any line but my own, when we passed down pots we took the new boys out to stack, had them look at it and asked them, "Why are you here?" Invariably we would get answers like, "To build Bonfire" or "Because I worked hard" or something similar. Our response was, "WRONG! You are here to get a degree, you can't build it if you aren't here." We required that the boys gave us a list of classes, class times, subjects and tests/quizzes so that we could make sure they were studying and keeping up with grades. Say what you want about Walton, but education was a focus for us.

Personally, my best grades my fish and pisshead years were Bonfire semesters. It forced me to focus my attention and not get lazy. After my scholarship ran out and I had to get a job to keep paying for college I found that the time management skills I had learned from Bonfire were essential in helping me maintain my grades.

It really is up to the individuals at this point. A person who would fail out because of Bonfire would probably fail out due to something else (naps, girls, beer, etc.) even if Bonfire disallowed them from participating due to grades.

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Say what you want about Walton, but education was a focus for us.

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I wish you had been around to advise that Walton guy on my ENGR 111 team.

that's actually really good to hear...not because it's "the answer I've been looking for" but because it's somebody saying that they have a concern for the grades in all of this. And before other people jump and say "taht's what I've been saying you idiot!" no, you haven't. I'm sure you'll agree that there are other people you knew or know who didn't have the same attention to grades as you?

I would agree that maybe those who are able to fail out b/c of Bonfire would be more likely to fail out for other reasons, but I can certainly see how Bonfire would be a very strong influence deterring people from school. Because it encompasses so much, it has a greater effect on people.

Some people lose sight of the big picture, that's what I'm saying. Anybody that disagrees with this, well, you've missed it too. It's clear people have missed the picture because of the answers Kip says to have heard. While you're here and being an Aggie, you build Bonfire, but you're not here to build Bonfire. Very well said.

AMEN, Brother Kip!!! As a new boy for HHH, I had a similar experience. We had to tell our dads about the next year class schedule and all other info they wanted to know. I did the same as a dad, and we stayed on the "kids" asses about keeping their grades up. I have several friends who failed but not because of Bonfire. It was usually beer, girls or they just gave up.

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that's actually really good to hear...not because it's "the answer I've been looking for" but because it's somebody saying that they have a concern for the grades in all of this.

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which one of these questions does his post answer?

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By ability I mean will they actually be able to go?

And about the "4 weeks I've been given," tell me Nick, have you begun to study for your finals yet?

Do you have any other classes going on?

I'm sure you're excellent as far as your time management goes and you would have begun writing that 10 page paper back in September, right?

I've been here 3.5 years now, and I'm very aware that the few days prior are going to be critical in getting that paper done, what about the freshman?

Do you think they know the sort of time that needs to go into something like that in order to get a good grade?

Is it right that they be forced to make that decision between Bonfire and grades?

Bonfire first, school second, right Mr. Kaechler?

Too many kids don't make it through their first year as it is for many reasons, why do you insist on there being another?

Can you not see this?

And yes, I will graduate soon, will you?

What good is all that networking gonna do for you if you fail to get your degree?

And please, you're what 35 years old?

Are you implying in any way that the only way to make friends and keep them is to put your future and degree at risk?

pretty much anybody that says something that makes you uncomfortable or makes people think about things they would prefer not to and somebody that incites anger in another is a "forum troll"?

Shark, when was the last time you went out to Bonfire?

You're right, I don't know much about the Bonfire of the past, but you don't know much about the Bonfire of the present, would that be fair to say?

You put a donation check in the mail every year to something that you know very little of?

If the GPA requirement is such a wacky idea, then how come said requirement is fairly standard M.O. for most serious and involved, as well as reputable, organizations on campus?

So though Keegan and I are similarly frustrated over some of the same issues, only he matters because he has been more involved than me?

That's kind of closed minded, don't you think?

To think that hundreds of organizations have it wrong and Bonfire has it right seems a bit crooked, no?

What would happen if SB adopted the same policy that the rest of the university abides by, hypothetically?

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Square, you are seriously underestimating the value of networking. Have you ever been offered a job because of an extracurricular organization that you were in...degree or no? Have you had the opportunity to beat out competition for a job because you could get a good character refrence from a source that was credible to the employer even though you were slightly less experienced?

If a student is to fail to finish college and never get a degree, any one activity or organization cannot be blamed, nor is it the organization's responsibility to babysit the student. Should the student fail out and give up, those connections made while still in college will give that student an edge over others.

The choice is not to 1)build Bonfire and fail out, or 2)sit at home or the library and study. The challenge is to find a way to fit all of the things one wants to do in together.

In many cases, students did not make the decision to attend college on their own. They felt it was expected of them, and are still allowing parents to make decisions for them. Normally, it is this type of student that the grade requirements are implimented for. This allows the student organization to babysit the student just like the parents, and make the decision to no longer be a member for the student, instead of allowing the student to do so on their own.

SO07, I think that you could find the answers to some, if not all of your question if you actually came out to Bonfire. You would see that only a very small percentage of people that actively participate fail out of the university. When I was yellowpot, more people failed out who didnt go to Bonfire than who did. And I remember you were out there a good number of times, have you failed out yet?

Rebel, actually the concern of mine that was answered was that somebody out there actually cared about the students.

Going back and re-posting all my questions was kind of ridiculous, don't you think? By the way, I'm still waiting for you to tell us all who you are.

To answer your question, yes, every job I've ever had has been the result of networking, so I would say that I'm pretty alright at it. As a matter of fact my job now IS networking, that's all I do, I talk to former students. And as a side note, you as well as many other would be unfortunately surprised about how many fail to give as a result of Bonfire, the lack of, and the Bonfire that is now.

The jobs I've had up to this point have been good by the standards of a high school student or those working on a college degree, however I'm not satisfied with that, and by the time I'm 26, I won't be satisfied with those sorts of jobs, so to me, getting a degree is essential, and the majority of the student body feels the same as I do, I assure you. As for your question about my character references, yes I can get a good fine number of those as well. Believe it or not, I can go to school, get good grades, not be involved in Bonfire, and STILL make good connection with people that matter, contrary to what you and many others seem to think.

Your argument about students not making their own decision to go to college is absurd, I'm sorry if that's the way your situation went, but I'm here because I want to be, I choose to work hard and make good grades because that's what I want, and again, I'm still able to make some damn fine connections...outside of Bonfire!

The argument that any organization that has grade requirement is only "babysitting" their students is getting old and tired. Perhaps these organizations want individuals in them who are intelligent, can manage their time and have their priorities in order. Bonfire couldn't afford to have any grade requirements on their participants, not because they would be too hard to enfore, but because it would decimate participation.

Curly, friend, those questions aren't gonna be answered by my coming out. They never were before, and I came out, so did Matt, and so did Kellan, have ya seen us there? And your argument about more people outside of Bonfire failed out than those who did doesn't work. Do more stuntmen die than non-stuntmen? Of course not! There are more "Nons" than stuntmen, if that follows.

I haven't failed out, but I'm wrapping up school, and I need to make these last 60 hours damn good, so I don't honestly can't afford to even experiment with making the sacrifice of my time. So no, to answer your question, I have not failed out. Not to sound like an ass, because I do consider you my friend, but what happened to your grades?

Again, I'm not saying it's either one or the other, but some people have made the argument that the BEST networking and connections you can make are through Bonfire, I'm gonna go ahead and say I disagree. Being an Aggie is the best form of connection. Meeting people of various walks of life, being involved with people who do not all share similar views, that's the best form of networking. Care to disagree? Fine.

Lastly, Rebel, since you took care to take the time and go through a great number of my posts, would you care to answer any of them?



And now you can pick it apart if you'd like.

[This message has been edited by SquareOne07 (edited 10/31/2006 10:43a).]

The belief that the best networking is done by coming out to off-campus Bonfire is short-sided and closed minded, and I think if you value your experiences at Bonfire over your Aggie Ring than you're missing the point of maybe what Aggie Bonfire is, or what it ever was.

TexasRebel had a good point there.

Square, you passed the line of "just curious" about 30 posts back. You're deep into Forum Troll territory now.

You're not changing the minds of any fish by posting here. You're not even informing them. The only thing you're doing is giving some other Ags a whole lot of grief.

For what it's worth, the last three jobs I've gotten came from networking and my Aggie Ring, not from the Degree on the wall of my office. See, to me, the ring was a bigger accomplishment because I love everything about the school (especially bonfire) that makes it more than just an academic institution.

So are we not saying the same thing? Also, why would I be interested in scaring anybody off? Do you really think that is my intention? If so, you are entirely wrong.

While you may think I'm not informing them, that's fine, are you or anybody else informing them either? Based on what I've been reading and a great deal of unrest surrounding Bonfire these days, is anybody being informed? By the way, how are those permits coming along? Do you know?

Do you not see any connection between your Aggie Ring and your degree? The Ring is your degree, it's your degree you show off to everybody else. Like your Diploma, it's what tells everybody you're an Aggie. People that fail out freshman or sophomore year never get either.

If getting your ring was a bigger accomplishment than graduating, well, then I guess we're all entitled to our own opinions, and I can respect your's, but disagree with that. Though, I don't expect that to be taken too kindly, differing views aren't appreciated here.

By the way, I was foolish for thinking that somebody would respond to an entire post. It's been pretty common to pick out one thing out of what I write, then write me off as an idiot. Read and reply to all if you're going to reply at all.

[This message has been edited by SquareOne07 (edited 10/31/2006 12:39p).]

Bonfire loyalty is an interesting creature. Something can be entirely unfounded or baseless and you guys will stick up for one another and hold your common ground till the end.

It would be great to see some evidence of an individual mind around here, something that doesn't show the necessity of towing the line. If any of you who read this don't see any problems or potential problems in Bonfire and think EVERYthing I've written is total nonsense, please let me know.

[This message has been edited by SquareOne07 (edited 10/31/2006 1:00p).]

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By the way, how are those permits coming along? Do you know?

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It appears that the problem has been resolved by moving Burn to another county.

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If getting your ring was a bigger accomplishment than graduating,

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It's not like there's a choice between getting your ring and graduating.

[This message has been edited by leknerd2004 (edited 10/31/2006 1:11p).]

So was it taken care of in the other county?

And about the ring, true, but some people seem to make the comparison.

Square -

I have listened to all conversation on this thread. Not that you don't know this, but you are the only one arguing.

So what that people are loyal. This is what A&M is about...loyalty and tradition. So are you ticked off that people join frats too? Surely what can they gain by "renting a friend"? (I was heavily involved in bonfire and my sorority and look how I turned out...happy and well-balanced).

What you don't get and never will is that it is much more than "towing a line."

I don't think everything you have written is total nonsense. You have just made no effort to understand the other point of view...you just think it is wrong on all levels.

I don't think your ideas are terrible or nonsense, but I do feel (and I am catching this from most) is this is a battle that really has nothing to do with you. You are trying to force people to see what you see and you are the only one seeing it. Bonfire like any organization is a choice. Do I go to cut or study? Do I spend 4+ hours at the football game or study. This is absurd, but does the University need to ban people on scholastic probabtion from attending a football game? Should they make them stay home and study instead of going to the game? No. You have paid your tuition...so go do what you want. YOUR CHOICE! If you can't make the grades then go home.

I think it is great that you stand up for what you believe in...but you are criticizing people for doing the same.

Your focus is only centered on the one or two negative aspects that you feel are important about Bonfire. They were never as critical as you think they were. Like most have said, you make the choice since mommy and daddy are at home and can't check up on you.

Maybe you should work on getting more people on your side or try to appropriately discuss a topic. I do remember you saying some pretty ugly things about my ideas. What is the point of disrespecting someone's opinion. As far as the disrespect you have paid to those in charge (yellow pots, reds, etc...) you could not have met more caring guys. I remember back when Appelt had 10+ people out every week. Because Bonfire means so much to them, they take good care of those guys.

We love Bonfire and love the memories we have, the lessons we learned and who we are because of the entire A&M experience (which may or not include Bonfire).

Accept it and move on.

[This message has been edited by sharklady00 (edited 10/31/2006 1:45p).]

As far as other people on my side there are plenty. And I'm not anti-Bonfire, however, I do talk to people on a weekly if not daily basis with former students who are upset with the way things are going. The vast majority if not the entirety of people who read and are active in this forum are ardent Bonfire supporters, and that's great! Just don't expect to hear to many dissenting viewpoints in a place like this.

A&M is about loyalty and tradition, I agree. But how long do you support something and how blindly do you follow something before you say "I like this, but something's gotta change so I can continue my support of it"? Hell, look at this country right now, same thing is going on.

I don't think what people are saying is wrong on all levels, I would just like to see in more people an understanding of what I'm saying as well. I understand the decision to Burn on Tuesday, I understand why there are no grade supports or requirements, I understand these kinds of things, honest. I just think a better understanding on both sides would foster a much more productive conversation. I want to understand, I really do, but I want people to understand as well. The GroupThink mentality here doesn't allow for that. It's MUCH harder to say "hmm that guy has a point in his sea of nonsense" than it is to say "I disagree with him because my buddies do too" would you agree with that?

Shark, I do respect what you have to say, and you and a few others are the exception to the way this conversation has gone, surely you can see this. I don't want to change you or anybody else's mind, that would be a HUGE waste of time. I just think it would be great to expand somebody scope of information on the topic. What I'm saying is quite often information relayed from other people, believe it or not. So no, I'm not the only one who thinks this way, I hope you can see that. I don't want to take away from you or anybody else's memories of Bonfire, hell, believe it or not, I think I'm pointing a few things out that could help in the long run. I know you or none of you will buy into that now, but just keep that in mind on down the line.

Terry to answer your question, I did fail out of the Universtity. However, both times I fialed out were in the spring, having passed all of my classes in the fall semester. The exact reasons I failed out are not a matter of public record and have nothing to do with Bonfire. Call me and I will explain.

Also I was a little vague in my previous post I should have said that the scope of students I was talking about were in Crocker only as that is the only place i have access to information of that nature.

[This message has been edited by Curly (edited 10/31/2006 2:09p).]

Even still it'd be hard to get some numbers of failure rates and for whatever reasons. That's all kind of...well not even worth talking about. People have a plethora of reasons for why what happens happens. Just because somebody in Bonfire fails out in the Fall doesn't mean I'm gonna blame it on Bonfire, that would be foolish. It is substantially more demanding on one's time than just about anything else I can think of.

And personally, I'm sorry to hear about that. I know you're a smart guy, Rach always used to tell me how smart you are and she had her concerns for ya too. All these people in here would think I ought to just go to hell, but I hope you can at least understand me having known me personally. I'm not asking you to defend me or agree with me or anything, but I know you're capable of understanding things that might be new to you.

Square, I was prepared to give you a good work over tonite but I have come to realize that you are concerned about Bonfire and about the students in general. However, if one allows oneself to get too involved in one thing, that road leads to destruction. My wife was an Aggie Wrangler, they practiced two-three times every week and more performances than I dare guess every week. Now some performances were local but many were out of town, usually to the major Texas cities. The Wranglers had people flunk out on a regular basis. My point is don't blame Bonfire for the time requirements it needs, I can imagine that there are many other groups at A&M that put in more hours than Bonfire.

Wow, well what made ya change your mind?

I'm not suggesting that Bonfire assume full responsibility for its members failing out. I understand those kind of things can happen in any situation. It would make some steps towards that elusive "good PR" thing that comes up every now and again, and making strong efforts to show that SB is passionate about its members grades takes steps away from that whole "renegade" reputation it's unfairly received.

But like we've said, it's difficult to make an outward showing saying that "Yes, such and such is an important value we hold"

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Going back and re-posting all my questions was kind of ridiculous, don't you think? By the way, I'm still waiting for you to tell us all who you are.

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nope, It allows everybody to see that you got an "answer" to a question that was never posted.

Those who know me...know me...

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you as well as many other would be unfortunately surprised about how many fail to give as a result of Bonfire, the lack of, and the Bonfire that is now.

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you would be surprised at the things that would not surprise me in the least...and the things I already know. However, this is another case of closedmindedness.

What? And what is a case of closed-mindedness? That former students won't give because of Bonfire?

Why don't you go ahead and tell them that.

So you don't think I ever had the question of whether or not SB cared for its participants' grades? Have you not been reading...or what?

People have accused me of being an inflammatory person in all of this, but you really seem bent on disagreeing with ANYthing I have to say. That's fine if that's what you wanna do I guess.

Many of the walls that SB is breaking down are put up because of the "renegade" and "rebel" publicity that the 2002 fire got. The image stuck and now, some potential donors hold back because they don't know that it is the same fire, nor will they take the time to find out on their own.

once again, you were searching for an answer to a question that was never posted. It would be self-destructive of Student Bonfire to advocate a "Bonfire first, grades second" stance. After one fire, the entire membership would fail out and the organization would become defunct because of a lack of members. It is, however, not the organization's responsibilty to tell a student how they should manage their time...one way, or the other.

You don't know why they don't give, and it would be unwise for you to speculate on that as well. It's not that you're losing "donors" to SB, we're losing people who have given us money for 30 years. That's a problem. I'm not saying it's warranted or anything, but you or me or anybody else can't make these people give again.

As far as grades go, that conversation is ridiculous to continue having. It's too vast and there will be no resolve.

I'm still waiting for you to let me know who you are.

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Many of the walls that SB is breaking down are put up because of the "renegade" and "rebel" publicity that the 2002 fire got.

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Do you know why it got that publicity in the first place? Or why SB started in 2002 instead of 2000?

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I'm still waiting for you to let me know who you are.

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yes, yes you are...

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Do you know why it got that publicity in the first place? Or why SB started in 2002 instead of 2000?

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Student Bonfire started in 2003. Unity Project oficially started in 2002, which more or less became Student Bonfire (there's a whole story that goes along with what happened between UP and SB, but I didn't care enough at the time to keep up with how everything went). In 2002 there were actually 3 fires, UP was the more public one that didn't get scared off by threats from the administration, ad coordinated enough with the county to get as much as they could in order.

The exact answer that I feel you are looking for is because 2002 was the mark set for a possible return to campus. Around the time of first cut, Bowen made it known that Bonfire may one day return to Texas A&M, but it would not happen in 2002. The three groups that bulit fires that year, were not satisfied with this decision and built their own.

Those fires were, however, built off campus. This does not go against anything that the University has control over, which means there was no rebellion. Had any of these fires been built on the polo fields, or Simpson, or Duncan or anywhere else on campus, then yes, the "rebel" and "renegade" names would have merit.

For as long as you are content to hide behind your handle, I'm perfectly content for thinking of your behavior to be cowardly. And I doubt anybody would seriously take issue with that.

A Bonfire wouldn't have to be built necessarily ON campus to be considered rebellious in nature I don't believe. Obviously this isn't true because of the stigma surrounding Bonfire these days. I can't neccessarily say what caused it, but it would be hard to deny that it's there.

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Obviously this isn't true because of the stigma surrounding Bonfire these days. I can't neccessarily say what caused it, but it would be hard to deny that it's there.

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Reason #1: It's a holdover from the KTFB days.

Reason #2: There are people in the administration who actively want a stigma surrounding Bonfire.

Not to stir the pot, but last year's incidents surely did little to help that stigma. Attempting to illegally light the fire and being fined pretty staunchly for it is neither the Admin's fault not is it the fault of anybdy else. Your reputation is your's.

Seriously, to pass on the reputation of an organization to anybody else is irresponsible, and you know that. Good or bad, you own up to it, and you fix it or maintain it.

[This message has been edited by SquareOne07 (edited 11/1/2006 12:12p).]

Square -

I fail to see why it is important to obsess over finding out someone's name. For whatever reason, people decide not to post their real name. Does that mean that I have the right to not voice my opinion because you demand a name? More importantly, does that mean you have the right to judge their character or engage in so much name calling (as you did in the thread "I AM..."? Where you have learned that it is acceptable to talk down to people on a public forum is beyond me.

This is sort of like when I responded to you and may have typed too fast and didn’t pay attention to grammatical errors. Because of this, you insulted me. You said, “What a dumb thought, you should really think things out before you type, and to think...you're a teacher, I hope you exercise more caution in the classroom.” I made a grammatical error or two and I am a rotten teacher? You will reply and defend that you never said those exact words. Was there really a reason to launch a personal attack?

As far as no Bonfire in 2000 or 2001, I can’t tell you what the real reasons are or won’t copy and paste text from some website, but can only tell you from my own experience. Having worked on Bonfire for 4 years and then it falling in my senior year (and so many injuries and deaths), I don’t know that we were all ready to pick up and build again. I feel like we needed time to grieve and take care of ourselves. Again, this is just my opinion and I have a right to express it, whether people know my name or not.

The sentiments expressed by Mr. Kerlee and Mr. Kimmell in that article are pretty negative as well. First time I've ever read that, but it was interesting to read. Have their opinions changed since?

Another interesting point I thought was about the absense of the band, the yell leaders, certains factions of the students body, etc...Without those, to me it seems, only a fraction of the goal of Bonfire is being accomplished.

And there goes the hornet's nest...