The two best poets for explaining the Christian faith in my view are John Milton " Paradise Lost " and Dante in "Divine Comedy". So many people get side tracked arguments about Latin, methods of baptizing, music that is sung, and being relative, without ever seeing the big story that the poets reveal.

dermdoc said:

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Forment Fan said:

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The two best poets for explaining the Christian faith in my view are John Milton " Paradise Lost " and Dante in "Divine Comedy". So many people get side tracked arguments about Latin, methods of baptizing, music that is sung, and being relative, without ever seeing the big story that the poets reveal.

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In my opinion, their depictions of hell are not Biblical.

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I think both are meant to be allegorical.

I'm not familiar with Milton but Dante shows how the choice to sin ends up punishing the sinner. When the soul turns away from God towards sin that naturally results in suffering. He creatively ties that suffering back to the flavor of the original sin.

Plus the ending: "Here powers failed my high imagination:
But by now my desire and will were turned,
Like a balanced wheel rotated evenly,
By the Love that moves the sun and the other stars."

God's Love moves the cosmos and we must desire harmony with His will.

"Some get spiritual because they see the light,
Some cause they feel the heat."

-Ray Wylie Hubbard

So y'all are okay with the torments of fellow human beings Dante and Milton described? And definitely not Biblical.

Dante is a fantastic writer, but it's kind of crazy just how much of the Divine Comedy reads as fan-fiction.

dermdoc said:

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I will say this, I think Dante influenced the Western view of hell more than Scripture.

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The Divine Comedy is one of my favorite books in the world, I actually own the Folio Society's hardback print and it's one of the more beautiful books in my library.

I really enjoy his depiction of hell and purgatory (everyone likes his depiction of heaven) and how the eternal punishment of the sinners is reflected by their torments. It's not meant to be read as a literal depiction of hell, but more as an allegory for the damage that each particular kind of sin does to a soul.

Quo Vadis? said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Dante is a fantastic writer, but it's kind of crazy just how much of the Divine Comedy reads as fan-fiction.

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……..isn't all of it Fan Fiction?

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All of what? The Divine Comedy has the author as the super awesome protagonist who is great enough to be escorted by his hero through Hell where he just happens to see all of his enemies (including some still alive at the time of writing) being tortured for all eternity. Then the love of his life happens to be a Heavenly entity that escorts him through Paradise.

Like I said, it's a gorgeous piece of poetry, but it's kind of funny to step back and look at the way it's structured.

Sapper Redux said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Dante is a fantastic writer, but it's kind of crazy just how much of the Divine Comedy reads as fan-fiction.

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……..isn't all of it Fan Fiction?

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All of what? The Divine Comedy has the author as the super awesome protagonist who is great enough to be escorted by his hero through Hell where he just happens to see all of his enemies (including some still alive at the time of writing) being tortured for all eternity. Then the love of his life happens to be a Heavenly entity that escorts him through Paradise.

Like I said, it's a gorgeous piece of poetry, but it's kind of funny to step back and look at the way it's structured.

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The entire DC is fan fiction. It's a novel. As you said if you read the book with commentary (why I suggest the kindle version) you'll pick up those asides to people and political parties he didn't like.

dermdoc said:

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I will say this, I think Dante influenced the Western view of hell more than Scripture.

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Dante wasn't creating something out of whole cloth. The idea of Hell as having layers and specific tortures for specific sins goes back to the Apocalypse of Peter, which was accepted as canon by some early Christian groups and came reasonably close to inclusion in the New Testament. The Apocalypse of Paul was likely written in the 4th century and was very popular in the Middle Ages when Dante was writing. Dante is better known now, but he reflected a very ancient tradition.

Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

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I will say this, I think Dante influenced the Western view of hell more than Scripture.

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Dante wasn't creating something out of whole cloth. The idea of Hell as having layers and specific tortures for specific sins goes back to the Apocalypse of Peter, which was accepted as canon by some early Christian groups and came reasonably close to inclusion in the New Testament. The Apocalypse of Paul was likely written in the 4th century and was very popular in the Middle Ages when Dante was writing. Dante is better known now, but he reflected a very ancient tradition.

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Maybe so. But it is not Biblical as the Canon is defined now,

10andBOUNCE said:

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The best poet would be David, son of Jesse

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Agree. Psalm 112 for my grandson and Psalm 121 for my granddaughter.

dermdoc said:

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I will say this, I think Dante influenced the Western view of hell more than Scripture.

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Both of them did, to a point that most western Christians conceive of hell and satan in their terms.

Our idea of satan being cast out of heaven is right out of paradise lost, along with the memorable phrase, "better to reign in hell, than serve in heaven."

Edit: I think their legacy is muddled because they're not taught well, if at all, nor are contemporary students formed in a way to understand them.

AGC said:

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dermdoc said:

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I will say this, I think Dante influenced the Western view of hell more than Scripture.

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Both of them did, to a point that most western Christians conceive of hell and satan in their terms.

Our idea of satan being cast out of heaven is right out of paradise lost, along with the memorable phrase, "better to reign in hell, than serve in heaven."

Edit: I think their legacy is muddled because they're not taught well, if at all, nor are contemporary students formed in a way to understand them.

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Do you believe like I do that is because of poor Bible teaching?

dermdoc said:

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AGC said:

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dermdoc said:

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I will say this, I think Dante influenced the Western view of hell more than Scripture.

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Both of them did, to a point that most western Christians conceive of hell and satan in their terms.

Our idea of satan being cast out of heaven is right out of paradise lost, along with the memorable phrase, "better to reign in hell, than serve in heaven."

Edit: I think their legacy is muddled because they're not taught well, if at all, nor are contemporary students formed in a way to understand them.

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Do you believe like I do that is because of poor Bible teaching?

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I understand the question but it's over broad for me. At churches, absolutely. At home most assuredly.

But there's also a cultural element of assuming things, like kids will turn out ok (whether divorce, getting in trouble in school, etc.), or that as long as they're a good person and go to college they'll stick with it, the public school teachers are Christians, we can read it and understand it all for ourselves with the Holy Spirit.

I've saved another controversial thing for my last statement: "they need to believe it for themselves." Christian's act like their kids are Christians (pray with them, go to church, parent them with bible verses, treat them as missionaries in public schools) but won't baptize them or let them take communion in larger evangelical churches. What are you telling your kids if they can do all these things without needing to be baptized or saved? Is it necessary? And many don't read the Bible daily with their kids or talk about and is used sermons or Sunday school teachings. I think adults are largely ignorant of their kids' spiritual lives and view it as internal, personal, and private.

My children both got baptized of their own volition.

Your kids are lucky to have you as a dad in my opinion.

dermdoc said:

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My children both got baptized of their own volition.

Your kids are lucky to have you as a dad in my opinion.

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Thats a good thing, we should all take on the faith for ourselves. I long for the day my whole family is at church on a Sunday and I don't have to choose one or the other for holidays.

Kind words. Let's see if I can live up to them.

And we never pushed or proselytize, just took them to church every Sunday and Wednesday. Prayed with them. My in laws did the Bible study very regularly.

Both my wife and I were active. Me as Deacon and SS teacher. Her as Choir leaders and VBS.

And they turned out great. I firmly believe actions speak louder than words.

Quo Vadis? said:

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dermdoc said:

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I will say this, I think Dante influenced the Western view of hell more than Scripture.

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The Divine Comedy is one of my favorite books in the world, I actually own the Folio Society's hardback print and it's one of the more beautiful books in my library.

I really enjoy his depiction of hell and purgatory (everyone likes his depiction of heaven) and how the eternal punishment of the sinners is reflected by their torments. It's not meant to be read as a literal depiction of hell, but more as an allegory for the damage that each particular kind of sin does to a soul.

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This is my take.

I also don't agree that The Divine Comedy is a very good interpretation of what Hell will really be like.

I agree with dermdoc that The Divine Comedy has influenced the conception of hell more than scripture.

For the record, I take an existentialist view of hell. It is an eternal concept that involves things that are not able to be rationally understood by the human mind, which is limited due to our brain's physical and temporal nature.

I think the most important thing to know about Hell is that it is bad, and you don't want to be there, in this life or the next.

Jesus was a poet, too.

https://ww3.tlig.org/en/messages_prayers/the-lords-prayer-in-aramaic/

The Lord's Prayer rhymes.

This style of poetry isn't for everyone but I have enjoyed many that this man has published over the years.