10andBOUNCE said:

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Psalm 75:8
For in the hand of the Lord there is a cup with foaming wine, well mixed, and he pours out from it, and all the wicked of the earth shall drain it down to the dregs.

Jeremiah 25:15-16
Thus the Lord, the God of Israel, said to me: "Take from my hand this cup of the wine of wrath, and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. They shall drink and stagger and be crazed because of the sword that I am sending among them."

Matthew 26:36-42
Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to his disciples, "Sit here, while I go over there and pray." And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to be sorrowful and troubled. Then he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me." And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will." And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping. And he said to Peter, "So, could you not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, "My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done."

2 Corinthians 5:20-21
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

---

With all due respect, I do not see how that means God poured His wrath on Jesus as Calvin and Reformed pastors teach.

Maybe it's me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_substitution
could just start there

or take Anselm's words (which focus on satisfaction).

Quote:

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If God is not paid the honor due Him, He is dishonored, having His honor taken from him. God's honor is stolen by through sin. However, as long as he does not repay what he has stolen, he remains guilty. But it is not enough for him merely to repay what has been stolen; rather, because of the wrong which has been inflicted, he ought to repay more than he has stolen. For example, if someone who injures another's health restores it, his doing so is insufficient payment unless he also gives some compensation for the painful wrong that was inflicted. Similarly, he who violates another's honor does not sufficiently repay this honor unless, in proportion to the injury caused by the dishonoring, he makes some restitution which is acceptable to the one whom he dishonored. We must also note that when someone repays what he has stolen, he ought to return that which could not be exacted from him had he not stolen what belonged to another. Accordingly, then, everyone who sins is obliged to repay to God the honor which he has stolen. This [repayment of stolen honor] constitutes the satisfaction which every sinner is obliged to make to God… To forgive sin in this manner is identical with not punishing it. Now, in the absence of satisfaction, to order sin rightly is only to punish it; therefore, if sin is not punished, something disordered is forgiven… Therefore, it is not fitting that God should forgive sin that goes thus unpunished.

---

or Calvin's words:

Quote:

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Another principal part of our reconciliation with God was, that man, who had lost himself by his disobedience, should, by way of remedy, oppose to it obedience, satisfy the justice of God, and pay the penalty of sin. Therefore, our Lord came forth very man, adopted the person of Adam, and assumed his name, that he might in his stead obey the Father; that he might present our flesh as the price of satisfaction to the just judgment of God, and in the same flesh pay the penalty which we had incurred

---

the whole framework this comes out of is that the satisfaction, and later the punishment, must be equal to the crime, and it absolutely comes from the idea that the Father must measure out this punishment, or receive this satisfaction.

AGC said:

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Mostly Peaceful said:

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Zobel said:

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Now I ask you. Where in any of that does it say that the Father's wrath was poured out on the Son? Or that the Father was obliged to punish, and so punished an innocent man? Where does it say that the Father punished the Son, or turned away from Him, or forsook Him?

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I don't know how many times I have to say it. I don't believe God punished an innocent man. I don't believe He turned His back on Jesus. These are objections to PSA that distort what the majority those who hold to PSA actually believe. I'm not denying there are fringe elements to whom your objections would be valid, that is always the case.

The quotes I listed above describe what I'd say, along with myself, the vast majority of PSA proponents believe; that God gave Himself in the person of His son to suffer in my place the death, punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for sin.

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Have you read the source material for the quotes?

I'm reading Athanasius' On the Incarnation with my priest right now, and I recognize the quote you offered but in context I think you'd struggle mightily to say that's his argument. It's an easy read btw, so I suggest it as a starting point to examine this support for that as a theory.

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I've read some - Epistle to Diognetus, Chrysostom's commentaries where I pulled the quotes, read enough of Augustine to believe I'm not distorting his view.

I haven't read On the Incarnation, but I did read Athanasius' letter to Marcellinus where another quote came from and don't believe I'm taking anything out of context there. Here's more of it:

Quote:

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And Psalm 21, speaking in the Saviour's own person, describes the manner of His death. Thou has brought me into the dust of death, for many dogs have compassed me, the assembly of the wicked have laid siege to me. They peirced my hands and my feet, they numbered all my bones, they gazed and stared at me, they parted my garments among them and cast lots for my vesture. They pierced my hands and my feet- what else can that mean except the Cross? and Psalms 87 and 68, again speaking in the Lord's own person, tell us further that He suffered these things, not for His own sake but for ours. Thou has made Thy wrath to rest upon me, says the one; and the other adds, I paid them things I never took. For He did not die as being Himself liable to death: He suffered for us, and bore in Himself the wrath that was the penalty of our transgression, even as Isaiah says, Himself bore our weaknesses.

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Zobel said:

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_substitution
could just start there

or take Anselm's words (which focus on satisfaction).

Quote:

---

If God is not paid the honor due Him, He is dishonored, having His honor taken from him. God's honor is stolen by through sin. However, as long as he does not repay what he has stolen, he remains guilty. But it is not enough for him merely to repay what has been stolen; rather, because of the wrong which has been inflicted, he ought to repay more than he has stolen. For example, if someone who injures another's health restores it, his doing so is insufficient payment unless he also gives some compensation for the painful wrong that was inflicted. Similarly, he who violates another's honor does not sufficiently repay this honor unless, in proportion to the injury caused by the dishonoring, he makes some restitution which is acceptable to the one whom he dishonored. We must also note that when someone repays what he has stolen, he ought to return that which could not be exacted from him had he not stolen what belonged to another. Accordingly, then, everyone who sins is obliged to repay to God the honor which he has stolen. This [repayment of stolen honor] constitutes the satisfaction which every sinner is obliged to make to God… To forgive sin in this manner is identical with not punishing it. Now, in the absence of satisfaction, to order sin rightly is only to punish it; therefore, if sin is not punished, something disordered is forgiven… Therefore, it is not fitting that God should forgive sin that goes thus unpunished.

---

or Calvin's words:

Quote:

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Another principal part of our reconciliation with God was, that man, who had lost himself by his disobedience, should, by way of remedy, oppose to it obedience, satisfy the justice of God, and pay the penalty of sin. Therefore, our Lord came forth very man, adopted the person of Adam, and assumed his name, that he might in his stead obey the Father; that he might present our flesh as the price of satisfaction to the just judgment of God, and in the same flesh pay the penalty which we had incurred

---

the whole framework this comes out of is that the satisfaction, and later the punishment, must be equal to the crime, and it absolutely comes from the idea that the Father must measure out this punishment, or receive this satisfaction.

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Agree. Seems pretty straight forward to me what Calvin thought. And I believe it is heresy.

If you have time, give it a shot. Each chapter is broken into sections with clear themes, so it's easy to follow. I have yet to see anything in there that doesn't suggest merely overcoming death, to the point where I'm going to have some fun conversations with my priest about where we fall as Anglicans. We don't often discuss it but it floats around from time to time.

Zobel said:

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Quote:

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our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin

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this a semiticism. the word for "sin" and "sin offering" are the same in Hebrew. A sin offering is just called "a sin". Jesus became a sin offering for us.

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1 Peter 2 sure does not read like he was merely a sin "offering."

1 Peter 2:21-25
For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Maybe you have a different view of what it meant to bore our sins?

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Psalm 75:8
For in the hand of the Lord there is a cup with foaming wine, well mixed, and he pours out from it, and all the wicked of the earth shall drain it down to the dregs.

Jeremiah 25:15-16
Thus the Lord, the God of Israel, said to me: "Take from my hand this cup of the wine of wrath, and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. They shall drink and stagger and be crazed because of the sword that I am sending among them."

Matthew 26:36-42
Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to his disciples, "Sit here, while I go over there and pray." And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to be sorrowful and troubled. Then he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me." And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will." And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping. And he said to Peter, "So, could you not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, "My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done."

2 Corinthians 5:20-21
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

---

With all due respect, I do not see how that means God poured His wrath on Jesus as Calvin and Reformed pastors teach.

Maybe it's me.

---

I would also point to Isaiah 53.

ETA....what would you say was "in the cup" that Christ spoke of in the garden? The cup he had preferred would pass but would endure if the will or the LORD.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Zobel said:

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Quote:

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our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin

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this a semiticism. the word for "sin" and "sin offering" are the same in Hebrew. A sin offering is just called "a sin". Jesus became a sin offering for us.

---

1 Peter 2 sure does not read like he was merely a sin "offering."

1 Peter 2:21-25
For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Maybe you have a different view of what it meant to bore our sins?

---

The wages of sin are…death?

What do you mean by "death?"

Zobel said:

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_substitution
could just start there

or take Anselm's words (which focus on satisfaction).

Quote:

---

If God is not paid the honor due Him, He is dishonored, having His honor taken from him. God's honor is stolen by through sin. However, as long as he does not repay what he has stolen, he remains guilty. But it is not enough for him merely to repay what has been stolen; rather, because of the wrong which has been inflicted, he ought to repay more than he has stolen. For example, if someone who injures another's health restores it, his doing so is insufficient payment unless he also gives some compensation for the painful wrong that was inflicted. Similarly, he who violates another's honor does not sufficiently repay this honor unless, in proportion to the injury caused by the dishonoring, he makes some restitution which is acceptable to the one whom he dishonored. We must also note that when someone repays what he has stolen, he ought to return that which could not be exacted from him had he not stolen what belonged to another. Accordingly, then, everyone who sins is obliged to repay to God the honor which he has stolen. This [repayment of stolen honor] constitutes the satisfaction which every sinner is obliged to make to God… To forgive sin in this manner is identical with not punishing it. Now, in the absence of satisfaction, to order sin rightly is only to punish it; therefore, if sin is not punished, something disordered is forgiven… Therefore, it is not fitting that God should forgive sin that goes thus unpunished.

---

or Calvin's words:

Quote:

---

Another principal part of our reconciliation with God was, that man, who had lost himself by his disobedience, should, by way of remedy, oppose to it obedience, satisfy the justice of God, and pay the penalty of sin. Therefore, our Lord came forth very man, adopted the person of Adam, and assumed his name, that he might in his stead obey the Father; that he might present our flesh as the price of satisfaction to the just judgment of God, and in the same flesh pay the penalty which we had incurred

---

the whole framework this comes out of is that the satisfaction, and later the punishment, must be equal to the crime, and it absolutely comes from the idea that the Father must measure out this punishment, or receive this satisfaction.

---

Is that as bad as it gets from Calvin? Seems pretty similar to the rest of the quotes I posted. How does it differ from:

Quote:

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They pierced my hands and my feet- what else can that mean except the Cross? and Psalms 87 and 68, again speaking in the Lord's own person, tell us further that He suffered these things, not for His own sake but for ours. Thou has made Thy wrath to rest upon me, says the one; and the other adds, I paid them things I never took. For He did not die as being Himself liable to death: He suffered for us, and bore in Himself the wrath that was the penalty of our transgression

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Any sources other than wikipedia?

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

---

Psalm 75:8
For in the hand of the Lord there is a cup with foaming wine, well mixed, and he pours out from it, and all the wicked of the earth shall drain it down to the dregs.

Jeremiah 25:15-16
Thus the Lord, the God of Israel, said to me: "Take from my hand this cup of the wine of wrath, and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. They shall drink and stagger and be crazed because of the sword that I am sending among them."

Matthew 26:36-42
Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to his disciples, "Sit here, while I go over there and pray." And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to be sorrowful and troubled. Then he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me." And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will." And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping. And he said to Peter, "So, could you not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, "My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done."

2 Corinthians 5:20-21
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

---

With all due respect, I do not see how that means God poured His wrath on Jesus as Calvin and Reformed pastors teach.

Maybe it's me.

---

I would also point to Isaiah 53.

ETA....what would you say was "in the cup" that Christ spoke of in the garden? The cup he had preferred would pass but would endure if the will or the LORD.

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I believe it was our sins. But not the wrath of God.

AGC said:

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If you have time, give it a shot. Each chapter is broken into sections with clear themes, so it's easy to follow. I have yet to see anything in there that doesn't suggest merely overcoming death, to the point where I'm going to have some fun conversations with my priest about where we fall as Anglicans. We don't often discuss it but it floats around from time to time.

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Thanks man. The ebook was free. I will check it out.

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Psalm 75:8
For in the hand of the Lord there is a cup with foaming wine, well mixed, and he pours out from it, and all the wicked of the earth shall drain it down to the dregs.

Jeremiah 25:15-16
Thus the Lord, the God of Israel, said to me: "Take from my hand this cup of the wine of wrath, and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. They shall drink and stagger and be crazed because of the sword that I am sending among them."

Matthew 26:36-42
Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to his disciples, "Sit here, while I go over there and pray." And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to be sorrowful and troubled. Then he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me." And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will." And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping. And he said to Peter, "So, could you not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, "My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done."

2 Corinthians 5:20-21
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

---

With all due respect, I do not see how that means God poured His wrath on Jesus as Calvin and Reformed pastors teach.

Maybe it's me.

---

I would also point to Isaiah 53.

ETA....what would you say was "in the cup" that Christ spoke of in the garden? The cup he had preferred would pass but would endure if the will or the LORD.

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I believe it was our sins. But not the wrath of God.

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So, what makes drinking a cup of our sins so bitter? Just that it is so offensive to God?

I guess where we diverge is that I would affirm that the cup is bitter due to it containing the consequential wrath from the sin of men. See Jeremiah 25.

Because He died? He was scourged and beaten and mocked and rejected and crucified?

No, sorry I have done enough legwork for you. Believe what you like, define your theology by whatever name you like. This discussion has become fractal theological individualism.

Hundreds of others were crucified; 2 others at the same time next to Christ. Many of the early church martyrs. Are you telling me Jesus was in such utter despair and sorrow, sweating blood because he was not wanting to endure the physical pains of crucifixion? The physical aspect is no doubt part of it, but Christ's drinking of the cup of God's wrath was something only He could do on our behalf, and what I believe was the direct cause of the utter despair the night before.

Zobel said:

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No, sorry I have done enough legwork for you. Believe what you like, define your theology by whatever name you like. This discussion has become fractal theological individualism.

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Okay. Again, I truly appreciate the dialogue. Hopefully I'm not coming off as antagonistic.

Yes, I am telling you that He, innocent and sinless, the king, lawgiver, judge, was absolutely in torment over knowing the excruciating, horrifying, humiliating, shameful treatment He was about to endure. That is not merely physical.

And he tells James and John they will drink the cup he drinks, later. So unless they also endured Gods wrath or whatever, that's not what he's talking about.

In Jeremiah 25, what would be your interpretation of "cup of the wine of wrath?"

Looks pretty rough. I'm not sure what this has to do with the Cross

Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts: Because you have not obeyed my words, 9behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, declares the LORD, and for Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction, and make them a horror, a hissing, and an everlasting desolation. 10Moreover, I will banish from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the grinding of the millstones and the light of the lamp. 11This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 12Then after seventy years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity, declares the LORD, making the land an everlasting waste. 13I will bring upon that land all the words that I have uttered against it, everything written in this book, which Jeremiah prophesied against all the nations. 14For many nations and great kings shall make slaves even of them, and I will recompense them according to their deeds and the work of their hands."

The Cup of the LORD's Wrath

15Thus the LORD, the God of Israel, said to me: "Take from my hand this cup of the wine of wrath, and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. 16They shall drink and stagger and be crazed because of the sword that I am sending among them."

17So I took the cup from the LORD's hand, and made all the nations to whom the LORD sent me drink it: 18Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, its kings and officials, to make them a desolation and a waste, a hissing and a curse, as at this day; 19Pharaoh king of Egypt, his servants, his officials, all his people, 20and all the mixed tribes among them; all the kings of the land of Uz and all the kings of the land of the Philistines (Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod); 21Edom, Moab, and the sons of Ammon; 22all the kings of Tyre, all the kings of Sidon, and the kings of the coastland across the sea; 23Dedan, Tema, Buz, and all who cut the corners of their hair; 24all the kings of Arabia and all the kings of the mixed tribes who dwell in the desert; 25all the kings of Zimri, all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of Media; 26all the kings of the north, far and near, one after another, and all the kingdoms of the world that are on the face of the earth. And after them the king of Babylona shall drink.

27"Then you shall say to them, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Drink, be drunk and vomit, fall and rise no more, because of the sword that I am sending among you.'

28"And if they refuse to accept the cup from your hand to drink, then you shall say to them, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts: You must drink! 29For behold, I begin to work disaster at the city that is called by my name, and shall you go unpunished? You shall not go unpunished, for I am summoning a sword against all the inhabitants of the earth, declares the LORD of hosts.'

30"You, therefore, shall prophesy against them all these words, and say to them:

"'The LORD will roar from on high,
and from his holy habitation utter his voice;
he will roar mightily against his fold,
and shout, like those who tread grapes,
against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31The clamor will resound to the ends of the earth,
for the LORD has an indictment against the nations;
he is entering into judgment with all flesh,
and the wicked he will put to the sword,
declares the LORD.'

32"Thus says the LORD of hosts:
Behold, disaster is going forth
from nation to nation,
and a great tempest is stirring
from the farthest parts of the earth!

33"And those pierced by the LORD on that day shall extend from one end of the earth to the other. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall be dung on the surface of the ground.

34"Wail, you shepherds, and cry out,
and roll in ashes, you lords of the flock,
for the days of your slaughter and dispersion have come,
and you shall fall like a choice vessel.
35No refuge will remain for the shepherds,
nor escape for the lords of the flock.
36A voicethe cry of the shepherds,
and the wail of the lords of the flock!
For the LORD is laying waste their pasture,
37and the peaceful folds are devastated
because of the fierce anger of the LORD.
38Like a lion he has left his lair,
for their land has become a waste
because of the sword of the oppressor,
and because of his fierce anger."

10andBOUNCE said:

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In Jeremiah 25, what would be your interpretation of "cup of the wine of wrath?"

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With all due respect, I do not get the connection. Guess that is why I am not Reformed.

Zobel said:

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Yes, I am telling you that He, innocent and sinless, the king, lawgiver, judge, was absolutely in torment over knowing the excruciating, horrifying, humiliating, shameful treatment He was about to endure. That is not merely physical.

And he tells James and John they will drink the cup he drinks, later. So unless they also endured Gods wrath or whatever, that's not what he's talking about.

---

Matthew 20:20-23
Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came up to him with her sons, and kneeling before him she asked him for something. And he said to her, "What do you want?" She said to him, "Say that these two sons of mine are to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom." Jesus answered, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am to drink?" They said to him, "We are able." He said to them, "You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father."

I think there is a distinction from "the cup" and "my cup." At least that is what my Bible expositors would point to.

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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In Jeremiah 25, what would be your interpretation of "cup of the wine of wrath?"

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With all due respect, I do not get the connection. Ties that is why I am not Reformed.

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The connection is that both passages are speaking about the cup. In the OT, "the cup" is most often linked to the wrath of God. In the garden, the connection is that Jesus is facing the same cup which holds with it the same meaning of God's wrath.

I fail to see how you don't see the connection. You obviously will not affirm that connection, but to deny its existence?

The idea of God's wrath is not a reformed position.

lol ok

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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In Jeremiah 25, what would be your interpretation of "cup of the wine of wrath?"

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With all due respect, I do not get the connection. Ties that is why I am not Reformed.

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The connection is that both passages are speaking about the cup. In the OT, "the cup" is most often linked to the wrath of God. In the garden, the connection is that Jesus is facing the same cup which holds with it the same meaning of God's wrath.

I fail to see how you don't see the connection. You obviously will not affirm that connection, but to deny its existence?

The idea of God's wrath is not a reformed position.

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They are two separate things. I am not lying to you.

And for God's wrath not being a Reformed position, y'all sure seem to focus on it a lot.

It is a focus because it is what we were delivered from.

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10
For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

10andBOUNCE said:

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It is a focus because it is what we were delivered from.

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10
For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

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That does not affect us. And if you believe TULIP, there is nothing we can do about it.

What is "that" and why doesn't it impact us?

Don't need to bring TULIP into this; I don't see the connection

10andBOUNCE said:

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What is "that" and why doesn't it impact us?

Don't need to bring TULIP into this; I don't see the connection

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Romans 8 1

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

My friend, we believe differently. And that is fine. We have done the Scripture duel numerous times. Nothing changed.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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What is "that" and why doesn't it impact us?

Don't need to bring TULIP into this; I don't see the connection

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Romans 8 1

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

My friend, we believe differently. And that is fine. We have done the Scripture duel numerous times. Nothing changed.

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Isn't that the whole point? It (wrath to come) doesn't affect us (believers) because of Jesus?

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Sure. The point is I do not believe God punished Jesus with His wrath.