A special prayer for the Jews and those who do not believe in Christ for Holy Week

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Quo Vadis?
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O God, creater of all things, who in your boundless mercy did send your only begotten son, Jesus Christ, to be the savior of the world, look with compassion upon the Jews and all unbelievers who wander yet in darkness, far from the light of your truth.

Remove, we beseech you, the veil from their hearts, that they may behold the glory of your Son, the promised messiah, and embrace with fervent faith the salvation he has wrought through his sacred Passion and Resurrection. Illumine their minds with the grace of your Holy Spirit that they may know Jesus Christ who you have sent.

Grant, O merciful God, that these souls redeemed by the precious blood of your Son, may turn from error, renounce unbelief and enter into the fold of your holy Church, there to find the fullness of truth and everlasting life. Through the same Jesus Christ, our Lord, who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit; God, world without end.

Amen.
Sapper Redux
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Leave us alone.
Quo Vadis?
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Sapper Redux said:

Leave us alone.
Sorry, you can pray for me too if you like.
Rocag
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AG
Sapper Redux said:

Leave us alone.
LOL, maybe a little harsh there.

Always a little awkward when, as an atheist, someone says they'll pray for you. Typically I just try and appreciate that they mean well. Not counting the ones that just use religion as an excuse to be a jerk to other people, of course.
dermdoc
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AG
Quo Vadis? said:

O God, creater of all things, who in your boundless mercy did send your only begotten son, Jesus Christ, to be the savior of the world, look with compassion upon the Jews and all unbelievers who wander yet in darkness, far from the light of your truth.

Remove, we beseech you, the veil from their hearts, that they may behold the glory of your Son, the promised messiah, and embrace with fervent faith the salvation he has wrought through his sacred Passion and Resurrection. Illumine their minds with the grace of your Holy Spirit that they may know Jesus Christ who you have sent.

Grant, O merciful God, that these souls redeemed by the precious blood of your Son, may turn from error, renounce unbelief and enter into the fold of your holy Church, there to find the fullness of truth and everlasting life. Through the same Jesus Christ, our Lord, who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit; God, world without end.

Amen.


Romans 11 26 KJV

And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Delivered, and shall turn away godlessness from Jacob.

I believe that Scripture.

And just curious, who do you think were damned. The Christian Nazis who killed millions of Jews? Or the Jews who did not believe in Jesus?

No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Quo Vadis?
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dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

O God, creater of all things, who in your boundless mercy did send your only begotten son, Jesus Christ, to be the savior of the world, look with compassion upon the Jews and all unbelievers who wander yet in darkness, far from the light of your truth.

Remove, we beseech you, the veil from their hearts, that they may behold the glory of your Son, the promised messiah, and embrace with fervent faith the salvation he has wrought through his sacred Passion and Resurrection. Illumine their minds with the grace of your Holy Spirit that they may know Jesus Christ who you have sent.

Grant, O merciful God, that these souls redeemed by the precious blood of your Son, may turn from error, renounce unbelief and enter into the fold of your holy Church, there to find the fullness of truth and everlasting life. Through the same Jesus Christ, our Lord, who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit; God, world without end.

Amen.


Romans 11 26 KJV

And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Delivered, and shall turn away godlessness from Jacob.

I believe that Scripture.

And just curious, who do you were damned. The Christian Mazis who killed millions of Jews? Or the Jews who did not believe in Jesus?


Likely both, I think we also probably disagree on who Israel is.
dermdoc
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AG
Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

O God, creater of all things, who in your boundless mercy did send your only begotten son, Jesus Christ, to be the savior of the world, look with compassion upon the Jews and all unbelievers who wander yet in darkness, far from the light of your truth.

Remove, we beseech you, the veil from their hearts, that they may behold the glory of your Son, the promised messiah, and embrace with fervent faith the salvation he has wrought through his sacred Passion and Resurrection. Illumine their minds with the grace of your Holy Spirit that they may know Jesus Christ who you have sent.

Grant, O merciful God, that these souls redeemed by the precious blood of your Son, may turn from error, renounce unbelief and enter into the fold of your holy Church, there to find the fullness of truth and everlasting life. Through the same Jesus Christ, our Lord, who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit; God, world without end.

Amen.


Romans 11 26 KJV

And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Delivered, and shall turn away godlessness from Jacob.

I believe that Scripture.

And just curious, who do you were damned. The Christian Mazis who killed millions of Jews? Or the Jews who did not believe in Jesus?


Likely both, I think we also probably disagree on who Israel is.
At that time, I think it is pretty clear who Paul was talking about when he said Israel. He was a Jew and when he wrote Israel, I can not imagine that meaning anything other than the Jewish people.

What other concept could Paul have meant? At that point in time?

I personally believe that a lot of Christians do not want to believe when Paul wrote "All Israel shall be saved" when it seems pretty straightforward to me. It is like, God can't be that good, can He?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Quo Vadis?
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dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

O God, creater of all things, who in your boundless mercy did send your only begotten son, Jesus Christ, to be the savior of the world, look with compassion upon the Jews and all unbelievers who wander yet in darkness, far from the light of your truth.

Remove, we beseech you, the veil from their hearts, that they may behold the glory of your Son, the promised messiah, and embrace with fervent faith the salvation he has wrought through his sacred Passion and Resurrection. Illumine their minds with the grace of your Holy Spirit that they may know Jesus Christ who you have sent.

Grant, O merciful God, that these souls redeemed by the precious blood of your Son, may turn from error, renounce unbelief and enter into the fold of your holy Church, there to find the fullness of truth and everlasting life. Through the same Jesus Christ, our Lord, who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit; God, world without end.

Amen.


Romans 11 26 KJV

And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Delivered, and shall turn away godlessness from Jacob.

I believe that Scripture.

And just curious, who do you were damned. The Christian Mazis who killed millions of Jews? Or the Jews who did not believe in Jesus?


Likely both, I think we also probably disagree on who Israel is.
At that time, I think it is pretty clear who Paul was talking about when he said Israel. He was a Jew and when he wrote Israel, I can not imagine that meaning anything other than the Jewish people.

What other concept could Paul have meant? At that point in time?




The Church; The body of Christ. The nonbelieving Jews were broken off of Israel, and the gentiles were grafted on.
Sapper Redux
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Rocag said:

Sapper Redux said:

Leave us alone.
LOL, maybe a little harsh there.

Always a little awkward when, as an atheist, someone says they'll pray for you. Typically I just try and appreciate that they mean well. Not counting the ones that just use religion as an excuse to be a jerk to other people, of course.


It's more the focus on Jews and what that has historically meant around this time of year, as well as the traditional behavior of the Catholic Church towards Jews through the centuries. This type of prayer has a very long and nefarious history.
dermdoc
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AG
Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

O God, creater of all things, who in your boundless mercy did send your only begotten son, Jesus Christ, to be the savior of the world, look with compassion upon the Jews and all unbelievers who wander yet in darkness, far from the light of your truth.

Remove, we beseech you, the veil from their hearts, that they may behold the glory of your Son, the promised messiah, and embrace with fervent faith the salvation he has wrought through his sacred Passion and Resurrection. Illumine their minds with the grace of your Holy Spirit that they may know Jesus Christ who you have sent.

Grant, O merciful God, that these souls redeemed by the precious blood of your Son, may turn from error, renounce unbelief and enter into the fold of your holy Church, there to find the fullness of truth and everlasting life. Through the same Jesus Christ, our Lord, who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit; God, world without end.

Amen.


Romans 11 26 KJV

And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Delivered, and shall turn away godlessness from Jacob.

I believe that Scripture.

And just curious, who do you were damned. The Christian Mazis who killed millions of Jews? Or the Jews who did not believe in Jesus?


Likely both, I think we also probably disagree on who Israel is.
At that time, I think it is pretty clear who Paul was talking about when he said Israel. He was a Jew and when he wrote Israel, I can not imagine that meaning anything other than the Jewish people.

What other concept could Paul have meant? At that point in time?




The Church; The body of Christ. The nonbelieving Jews were broken off of Israel, and the gentiles were grafted on.
I am well aware of this interpretation and disagree.

Why would Paul, at that point in time, as a Jew, mean anything other than the Jewish people when he used the term Israel?

And when Paul described the ingrafting of the Gentiles into the vine (Christ) why did he not use the term Israel?

To me, it is very straight forward. All Israel shall be saved. How much plainer could Paul have been?

And that is good news indeed. Praise the Lord!
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
kurt vonnegut
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AG
Rocag said:

Sapper Redux said:

Leave us alone.
LOL, maybe a little harsh there.

Always a little awkward when, as an atheist, someone says they'll pray for you. Typically I just try and appreciate that they mean well. Not counting the ones that just use religion as an excuse to be a jerk to other people, of course.

I admit that I LOLed as well. As for another serious take on the prayer, I don't take any offense to it and I recognize that it [often, but not always] comes from a good place.

I think it can be easy to read a prayer like the one posted by the OP and feel judged or spoken down to for not being Christian. I read that we wander in darkness and our hearts are veiled and our minds lack illumination and we are in error. Which I recognize is not an incorrect way of describing how a Christian might understand non Christians. But it still feels like it has an edge of "I'm right and your wrong and I hope God has mercy on you for your terrible choices."

. . . . . so, thanks???? I think.

----

I could imagine a well meaning non believer "praying" for Christians with:

Oh reason, merciful and patient,

grant insight to those still clinging to ancient fables.

Deliver them from the comforting chains of belief,
from the stories told by desert tribes who knew not where the sun went at night.
Let them see the absurdity not as mystery,
but as the error it has always been.

May they one day realize
that morality predates their scriptures,
that love needs no commandments,
and that fear of eternal punishment
is a poor substitute for genuine virtue.

Open their eyes to the beauty of a universe
not made for them
and all the more magnificent because of it.

May they trade their hymns for questions,
their prayers for progress,
and their gods for reality.

In logic we place our hope.
Amenironically, of course.


Even if the above was well meaning, its not exactly complementary and not likely to be well received. its not something I would say or even think about my Christians brothers. I have too much respect for them as people and for their intentions.

And shoutout to ChatGPT for the secular prayer.
Quo Vadis?
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dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

O God, creater of all things, who in your boundless mercy did send your only begotten son, Jesus Christ, to be the savior of the world, look with compassion upon the Jews and all unbelievers who wander yet in darkness, far from the light of your truth.

Remove, we beseech you, the veil from their hearts, that they may behold the glory of your Son, the promised messiah, and embrace with fervent faith the salvation he has wrought through his sacred Passion and Resurrection. Illumine their minds with the grace of your Holy Spirit that they may know Jesus Christ who you have sent.

Grant, O merciful God, that these souls redeemed by the precious blood of your Son, may turn from error, renounce unbelief and enter into the fold of your holy Church, there to find the fullness of truth and everlasting life. Through the same Jesus Christ, our Lord, who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit; God, world without end.

Amen.


Romans 11 26 KJV

And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Delivered, and shall turn away godlessness from Jacob.

I believe that Scripture.

And just curious, who do you were damned. The Christian Mazis who killed millions of Jews? Or the Jews who did not believe in Jesus?


Likely both, I think we also probably disagree on who Israel is.
At that time, I think it is pretty clear who Paul was talking about when he said Israel. He was a Jew and when he wrote Israel, I can not imagine that meaning anything other than the Jewish people.

What other concept could Paul have meant? At that point in time?




The Church; The body of Christ. The nonbelieving Jews were broken off of Israel, and the gentiles were grafted on.
I am well aware of this interpretation and disagree.

Why would Paul, at that point in time, as a Jew, mean anything other than the Jewish people when he used the term Israel?

And when Paul described the ingrafting of the Gentiles into the vine (Christ) why did he not use the term Israel?

To me, it is very straight forward. All Israel shall be saved. How much plainer could Paul have been?

And that is good news indeed. Praise the Lord!

He could have been very plain and said that all the Jews will be saved. He didn't say that, he spoke about the non believing Jews being cut off the tree, with the believing Jews and Gentiles that were grafted in becoming the new tree.

Why would the jews have been cut off the tree, if being cut off of the tree is the same as being a part of the tree? He says the unbelieving can become part of the tree, even more so than the Gentiles, but they have to get rid of their unbelief.
dermdoc
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AG
Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

O God, creater of all things, who in your boundless mercy did send your only begotten son, Jesus Christ, to be the savior of the world, look with compassion upon the Jews and all unbelievers who wander yet in darkness, far from the light of your truth.

Remove, we beseech you, the veil from their hearts, that they may behold the glory of your Son, the promised messiah, and embrace with fervent faith the salvation he has wrought through his sacred Passion and Resurrection. Illumine their minds with the grace of your Holy Spirit that they may know Jesus Christ who you have sent.

Grant, O merciful God, that these souls redeemed by the precious blood of your Son, may turn from error, renounce unbelief and enter into the fold of your holy Church, there to find the fullness of truth and everlasting life. Through the same Jesus Christ, our Lord, who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit; God, world without end.

Amen.


Romans 11 26 KJV

And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Delivered, and shall turn away godlessness from Jacob.

I believe that Scripture.

And just curious, who do you were damned. The Christian Mazis who killed millions of Jews? Or the Jews who did not believe in Jesus?


Likely both, I think we also probably disagree on who Israel is.
At that time, I think it is pretty clear who Paul was talking about when he said Israel. He was a Jew and when he wrote Israel, I can not imagine that meaning anything other than the Jewish people.

What other concept could Paul have meant? At that point in time?




The Church; The body of Christ. The nonbelieving Jews were broken off of Israel, and the gentiles were grafted on.
I am well aware of this interpretation and disagree.

Why would Paul, at that point in time, as a Jew, mean anything other than the Jewish people when he used the term Israel?

And when Paul described the ingrafting of the Gentiles into the vine (Christ) why did he not use the term Israel?

To me, it is very straight forward. All Israel shall be saved. How much plainer could Paul have been?

And that is good news indeed. Praise the Lord!

He could have been very plain and said that all the Jews will be saved. He didn't say that, he spoke about the non believing Jews being cut off the tree, with the believing Jews and Gentiles that were grafted in becoming the new tree.

Why would the jews have been cut off the tree, if being cut off of the tree is the same as being a part of the tree? He says the unbelieving can become part of the tree, even more so than the Gentiles, but they have to get rid of their unbelief.
We will agree to disagree.

Have a wonderful Easter!
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Quo Vadis?
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dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

O God, creater of all things, who in your boundless mercy did send your only begotten son, Jesus Christ, to be the savior of the world, look with compassion upon the Jews and all unbelievers who wander yet in darkness, far from the light of your truth.

Remove, we beseech you, the veil from their hearts, that they may behold the glory of your Son, the promised messiah, and embrace with fervent faith the salvation he has wrought through his sacred Passion and Resurrection. Illumine their minds with the grace of your Holy Spirit that they may know Jesus Christ who you have sent.

Grant, O merciful God, that these souls redeemed by the precious blood of your Son, may turn from error, renounce unbelief and enter into the fold of your holy Church, there to find the fullness of truth and everlasting life. Through the same Jesus Christ, our Lord, who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit; God, world without end.

Amen.


Romans 11 26 KJV

And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Delivered, and shall turn away godlessness from Jacob.

I believe that Scripture.

And just curious, who do you were damned. The Christian Mazis who killed millions of Jews? Or the Jews who did not believe in Jesus?


Likely both, I think we also probably disagree on who Israel is.
At that time, I think it is pretty clear who Paul was talking about when he said Israel. He was a Jew and when he wrote Israel, I can not imagine that meaning anything other than the Jewish people.

What other concept could Paul have meant? At that point in time?




The Church; The body of Christ. The nonbelieving Jews were broken off of Israel, and the gentiles were grafted on.
I am well aware of this interpretation and disagree.

Why would Paul, at that point in time, as a Jew, mean anything other than the Jewish people when he used the term Israel?

And when Paul described the ingrafting of the Gentiles into the vine (Christ) why did he not use the term Israel?

To me, it is very straight forward. All Israel shall be saved. How much plainer could Paul have been?

And that is good news indeed. Praise the Lord!

He could have been very plain and said that all the Jews will be saved. He didn't say that, he spoke about the non believing Jews being cut off the tree, with the believing Jews and Gentiles that were grafted in becoming the new tree.

Why would the jews have been cut off the tree, if being cut off of the tree is the same as being a part of the tree? He says the unbelieving can become part of the tree, even more so than the Gentiles, but they have to get rid of their unbelief.
We will agree to disagree.

Have a wonderful Easter!
Doc, we can agree to disagree, but it would be nice to have an internally coherent belief structure.

It makes no sense for the branches that were cut off to be the same as the ones that weren't cut off. This also isn't some fringe belief system, this is what all of Christianity believed until a few centuries ago. The earliest Christians taught that those that believed in Christ, were the real Israel.

paraphrasing here:

St. Justin Martyr "the true spiritual israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac and Abraham......are we who have been led to God through the crucified Christ"

St Ignatius: "it is absurd to profess Christ Jesus and to Judaize, for Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, so that every tongue which believes might be gathered to God"

St. Irenaeus: For inasmuch as the former have rejected the Son of God, and cast Him out of the vineyard when they slew him, God has justly rejected them, and given to the Gentiles outside the vineyard the fruits of its cultivation.

Tertullian: For we who were not the people, are made a people, we who were not beloved, are made beloved. And thus the nation and people who were not beloved, and were not a nation, are now the Nationa and people of God, since they have received the adoption and inheritance"

Origen: "The Israel of God is not the according to the flesh, but according to the spirit, and those who are called Jews inwardly ,whose circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, and not in the letter"

St. Clement: "For we are those of whom it is written 'a people that shall be born, whome the Lord hath made'. We are the true race of Israel, the spiritual Israel, chosen by God, through faith in his son"

St.Cyprian: The jews have erred from the truth, and the gentiles have come in their place, and the new people of the Christians have succeeded to the old people of the Jews, so that we who were not a people before are now the people of God.

All of these quotes are before the end of the 3rd century.



Sapper Redux
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kurt vonnegut said:

Rocag said:

Sapper Redux said:

Leave us alone.
LOL, maybe a little harsh there.

Always a little awkward when, as an atheist, someone says they'll pray for you. Typically I just try and appreciate that they mean well. Not counting the ones that just use religion as an excuse to be a jerk to other people, of course.

I admit that I LOLed as well. As for another serious take on the prayer, I don't take any offense to it and I recognize that it [often, but not always] comes from a good place.

I think it can be easy to read a prayer like the one posted by the OP and feel judged or spoken down to for not being Christian. I read that we wander in darkness and our hearts are veiled and our minds lack illumination and we are in error. Which I recognize is not an incorrect way of describing how a Christian might understand non Christians. But it still feels like it has an edge of "I'm right and your wrong and I hope God has mercy on you for your terrible choices."

. . . . . so, thanks???? I think.

----

I could imagine a well meaning non believer "praying" for Christians with:

Oh reason, merciful and patient,

grant insight to those still clinging to ancient fables.

Deliver them from the comforting chains of belief,
from the stories told by desert tribes who knew not where the sun went at night.
Let them see the absurdity not as mystery,
but as the error it has always been.

May they one day realize
that morality predates their scriptures,
that love needs no commandments,
and that fear of eternal punishment
is a poor substitute for genuine virtue.

Open their eyes to the beauty of a universe
not made for them
and all the more magnificent because of it.

May they trade their hymns for questions,
their prayers for progress,
and their gods for reality.

In logic we place our hope.
Amenironically, of course.


Even if the above was well meaning, its not exactly complementary and not likely to be well received. its not something I would say or even think about my Christians brothers. I have too much respect for them as people and for their intentions.

And shoutout to ChatGPT for the secular prayer.



The addition of "nonbelievers" is more recent. This is a version of a Good Friday Prayer for the Jews, which has a long history. Thus my request that we be left alone. Jews have experienced quite the… ahem… variety… of Christian concern.
Quo Vadis?
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Sapper Redux said:

kurt vonnegut said:

Rocag said:

Sapper Redux said:

Leave us alone.
LOL, maybe a little harsh there.

Always a little awkward when, as an atheist, someone says they'll pray for you. Typically I just try and appreciate that they mean well. Not counting the ones that just use religion as an excuse to be a jerk to other people, of course.

I admit that I LOLed as well. As for another serious take on the prayer, I don't take any offense to it and I recognize that it [often, but not always] comes from a good place.

I think it can be easy to read a prayer like the one posted by the OP and feel judged or spoken down to for not being Christian. I read that we wander in darkness and our hearts are veiled and our minds lack illumination and we are in error. Which I recognize is not an incorrect way of describing how a Christian might understand non Christians. But it still feels like it has an edge of "I'm right and your wrong and I hope God has mercy on you for your terrible choices."

. . . . . so, thanks???? I think.

----

I could imagine a well meaning non believer "praying" for Christians with:

Oh reason, merciful and patient,

grant insight to those still clinging to ancient fables.

Deliver them from the comforting chains of belief,
from the stories told by desert tribes who knew not where the sun went at night.
Let them see the absurdity not as mystery,
but as the error it has always been.

May they one day realize
that morality predates their scriptures,
that love needs no commandments,
and that fear of eternal punishment
is a poor substitute for genuine virtue.

Open their eyes to the beauty of a universe
not made for them
and all the more magnificent because of it.

May they trade their hymns for questions,
their prayers for progress,
and their gods for reality.

In logic we place our hope.
Amenironically, of course.


Even if the above was well meaning, its not exactly complementary and not likely to be well received. its not something I would say or even think about my Christians brothers. I have too much respect for them as people and for their intentions.

And shoutout to ChatGPT for the secular prayer.



The addition of "nonbelievers" is more recent. This is a version of a Good Friday Prayer for the Jews, which has a long history. Thus my request that we be left alone. Jews have experienced quite the… ahem… variety… of Christian concern.


Perfidious just means non believing, in the context that they have broken the unbreakable
dermdoc
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AG
Fair enough. I will add this.

Romans 11 28

As far as the Gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account, but as far as election is concerned, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.

Shalom and Happy Easter!
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
BonfireNerd04
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kurt vonnegut said:

Rocag said:

Sapper Redux said:

Leave us alone.
LOL, maybe a little harsh there.

Always a little awkward when, as an atheist, someone says they'll pray for you. Typically I just try and appreciate that they mean well. Not counting the ones that just use religion as an excuse to be a jerk to other people, of course.

I admit that I LOLed as well. As for another serious take on the prayer, I don't take any offense to it and I recognize that it [often, but not always] comes from a good place.

I think it can be easy to read a prayer like the one posted by the OP and feel judged or spoken down to for not being Christian. I read that we wander in darkness and our hearts are veiled and our minds lack illumination and we are in error. Which I recognize is not an incorrect way of describing how a Christian might understand non Christians. But it still feels like it has an edge of "I'm right and your wrong and I hope God has mercy on you for your terrible choices."

. . . . . so, thanks???? I think.

----

I could imagine a well meaning non believer "praying" for Christians with:

Oh reason, merciful and patient,

grant insight to those still clinging to ancient fables.

Deliver them from the comforting chains of belief,
from the stories told by desert tribes who knew not where the sun went at night.
Let them see the absurdity not as mystery,
but as the error it has always been.

May they one day realize
that morality predates their scriptures,
that love needs no commandments,
and that fear of eternal punishment
is a poor substitute for genuine virtue.

Open their eyes to the beauty of a universe
not made for them
and all the more magnificent because of it.

May they trade their hymns for questions,
their prayers for progress,
and their gods for reality.

In logic we place our hope.
Amenironically, of course.


Even if the above was well meaning, its not exactly complementary and not likely to be well received. its not something I would say or even think about my Christians brothers. I have too much respect for them as people and for their intentions.

And shoutout to ChatGPT for the secular prayer.
I'm a huge fan of ChatGPT and use it for inane blog posts all the time.

For completeness, here's a Jewish anti-missionary prayer:

Quote:

A Special Prayer for Those Who Worship a Man as God, During Their Holy Week

O Eternal One, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,
You who are One, without form, without partner, without son,
Look with mercy upon those among the nations who, though earnest in their seeking,
Have stumbled into the worship of flesh and mistaken it for holiness.

Open their hearts, we pray, to the truth of Your eternal Torah
That no man can bear the sins of another,
That no blood, no cross, no human sacrifice can atone where repentance and righteousness are required.

Remove from them the veil of Paul's deception,
That they may see the difference between a prophet and a pretender,
Between the Word of God and the words of a man who knew neither Hebrew nor Sinai.

Grant them clarity, O Source of Wisdom,
To abandon their triune confusion and return to the One who neither changes nor dies.
Let them cast off their doctrines of original sin,
And find instead the dignity of personal responsibility,
The joy of mitzvot, and the peace of knowing that no one need die for another to live.

May they awaken to the beauty of a faith not built on fear,
But on justice, mercy, and walking humbly with You.

And let them no longer seek to convert Your people,
But instead, turn toward You alone,
As did Jethro, Ruth, and all who sought truth without demanding blood.

Baruch Atah, Hashem,
Who gives wisdom to those who seek You with an honest heart.
Amen.

BonfireNerd04
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Quote:

And just curious, who do you think were damned. The Christian Nazis who killed millions of Jews? Or the Jews who did not believe in Jesus?
Especially Adolf Eichmann, who was given Catholic last rites the night before he was hanged for crimes against humanity.
dermdoc
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AG
BonfireNerd04 said:

Quote:

And just curious, who do you think were damned. The Christian Nazis who killed millions of Jews? Or the Jews who did not believe in Jesus?
Especially Adolf Eichmann, who was given Catholic last rights the night before he was hanged for crimes against humanity.


Makes me sick at my stomach.
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Quo Vadis?
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dermdoc said:

BonfireNerd04 said:

Quote:

And just curious, who do you think were damned. The Christian Nazis who killed millions of Jews? Or the Jews who did not believe in Jesus?
Especially Adolf Eichmann, who was given Catholic last rights the night before he was hanged for crimes against humanity.


Makes me sick at my stomach.


Why? Is he the only guy who deserves hell for eternity?
dermdoc
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AG
Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

BonfireNerd04 said:

Quote:

And just curious, who do you think were damned. The Christian Nazis who killed millions of Jews? Or the Jews who did not believe in Jesus?
Especially Adolf Eichmann, who was given Catholic last rights the night before he was hanged for crimes against humanity.


Makes me sick at my stomach.


Why? Is he the only guy who deserves hell for eternity?
I do not believe anyone of God's created people deserve "hell" for eternity.

Do you think the Jews Eichmann murdered are in "hell"?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Quo Vadis?
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dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

BonfireNerd04 said:

Quote:

And just curious, who do you think were damned. The Christian Nazis who killed millions of Jews? Or the Jews who did not believe in Jesus?
Especially Adolf Eichmann, who was given Catholic last rights the night before he was hanged for crimes against humanity.


Makes me sick at my stomach.


Why? Is he the only guy who deserves hell for eternity?
I do not believe anyone of God's created people deserve "hell" for eternity.

Do you think the Jews Eichmann murdered are in "hell"?


Yes quite possibly. And if Eichmann repented at the end he's in heaven. Are there some sins which are unforgivable?
Zobel
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AG
To Doc as well -

Quote:

Why would Paul, at that point in time, as a Jew, mean anything other than the Jewish people when he used the term Israel?
I think the point people miss here is labeling "Jew" as equal to "modern people who practice Judaism". That's just not what it meant at the time. Jew means Judaean, a Judaean person. What made you a Judaean person was that you practiced the way of life common to Judaean people, which meant you worshipped Yahweh, lived according to their nomos or Torah or lex or law or custom (whatever word you want to use).

The Jews were not Israel, they were a subset of Israel. Israel was twelve tribes, the Judaean people were two and some change.

The other tribes - the ones of Israel, the northern kingdom - were cut off. The land was depopulated and the people were scattered into the gentiles. The prophecy of the dry bones (which we read on Great and Holy Saturday) is about this - the whole house of Israel, emphasized when the Word of the Lord (that is, Jesus) tells Ezekiel to take two sticks: one for Judah, and the people of Israel associated with him, and one for Joseph (the stick of Ephraim) and all the house of Israel associated with him. He says:

Quote:

Behold, I am about to take the stick of Joseph (that is in the hand of Ephraim) and the tribes of Israel associated with him. And I will join with it the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, that they may be one in my hand...Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land. And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms.

All Israel means the whole house of Israel. This is everywhere in the Prophets - Ezekiel 34:34, Ezekiel 36:24, Ezekiel 39:25, Jeremiah 23:3, Jeremiah 31:8, Isaiah 11:11-12, Isaiah 43:5-6, Isaiah 56:8, Hosea 1:10-11, Zechariah 10:6-10. Micah 2:12-13, Amos 9:11-12. It is even foretold in Deuteronomy 30:3.

So when the Apostles saw the gentiles coming from the nations they snapped right to this. They refer to it in the deliberation at the council of Jerusalem, quoting the passage from Amos. St Paul is right in line with this in Romans. He is saying that these people of the gentiles ARE the restoration of Israel. They BECOME Israel, they are grafted in. That's why he tells gentile believers, former pagans, "OUR fathers were under the cloud and passed through the sea, they were baptized into Moses in the cloud and the sea." When they were baptized into Christ, they became Israelites -- because Christ's circumcision was applied to them.

St Paul is not talking about "Jew" as a religious identifier, he is talking about the specific people of Judea, who were the only people left of Israel. The other branches were cut off. But, he notes that being a Judaean isn't really about blood, it is inward, spiritual. Some of the people of Judea were merely tribal Judaeans... those are the ones St John calls "the Jews". Not all who are descended from Israel are truly Israelites. Before the Holy Spirit came to the gentiles, only a portion of Judah was Israel - the faithful remnant. A portion of a portion, the people prepared by St John for the Messiah.
Quote:

And when Paul described the ingrafting of the Gentiles into the vine (Christ) why did he not use the term Israel?
With the coming of the Spirit to the gentiles, those tribes scattered and lost into the nations are brought back. The dry bones - dead, gone tribes - are reborn. New life appears where they had been completely obliterated. they are grafted into the root of Judah, who is Christ, and through that great miracle All Israel is saved. All the tribes, and ultimately All Israel that is saved becomes All Mankind. The Church, the Assembly of the People of God (which is what Israel is), expands to include all people from the earth, tied to the root of the tree which is Christ, the vine. This is why we say in the hierarchical liturgy - "Look down from heaven, and see; have regard for this vine that your right hand planted".

This is the original plan... it was never that Israel were magic blood special people. They were chosen, set apart, for a specific role. Not because they earned it or because they had done anything to merit it, but by grace. God called them to a role, to be the priest to represent God to the nations, and the nations to God, if they were faithful. They were not, and they were in part (Northern Kingdom) scattered, and in part exiled. And yet in their faithlessness God used them to save the entire world. This is truly a great and amazing miracle when we see the unfolding of providence looking back!

We should absolutely pray for modern Jews, descendants of the Judaean people and others who practice their religion. And for all mankind. Israel's role - which is the same today as ever - is to act as a kingdom of priests to intercede for mankind before God, to pray for the world, to offer sacrifices for the world.
dermdoc
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AG
Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

BonfireNerd04 said:

Quote:

And just curious, who do you think were damned. The Christian Nazis who killed millions of Jews? Or the Jews who did not believe in Jesus?
Especially Adolf Eichmann, who was given Catholic last rights the night before he was hanged for crimes against humanity.


Makes me sick at my stomach.


Why? Is he the only guy who deserves hell for eternity?
I do not believe anyone of God's created people deserve "hell" for eternity.

Do you think the Jews Eichmann murdered are in "hell"?


Yes quite possibly. And if Eichmann repented at the end he's in heaven. Are there some sins which are unforgivable?
So if I murder a million Jews and repent before I die, I am okay? But the Jews are in eternal conscious torment hell?

No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Quo Vadis?
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dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

BonfireNerd04 said:

Quote:

And just curious, who do you think were damned. The Christian Nazis who killed millions of Jews? Or the Jews who did not believe in Jesus?
Especially Adolf Eichmann, who was given Catholic last rights the night before he was hanged for crimes against humanity.


Makes me sick at my stomach.


Why? Is he the only guy who deserves hell for eternity?
I do not believe anyone of God's created people deserve "hell" for eternity.

Do you think the Jews Eichmann murdered are in "hell"?


Yes quite possibly. And if Eichmann repented at the end he's in heaven. Are there some sins which are unforgivable?
So if I murder a million Jews and repent before I die, I am okay? But the Jews are in eternal conscious torment hell?




Yes, if you do literally anything and you genuinely repent before you die you go to heaven. This is Christianity 101.

Yes, those that reject Christ go to hell.

dermdoc
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AG
Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

BonfireNerd04 said:

Quote:

And just curious, who do you think were damned. The Christian Nazis who killed millions of Jews? Or the Jews who did not believe in Jesus?
Especially Adolf Eichmann, who was given Catholic last rights the night before he was hanged for crimes against humanity.


Makes me sick at my stomach.


Why? Is he the only guy who deserves hell for eternity?
I do not believe anyone of God's created people deserve "hell" for eternity.

Do you think the Jews Eichmann murdered are in "hell"?


Yes quite possibly. And if Eichmann repented at the end he's in heaven. Are there some sins which are unforgivable?
So if I murder a million Jews and repent before I die, I am okay? But the Jews are in eternal conscious torment hell?




Yes, if you do literally anything and you genuinely repent before you die you go to heaven. This is Christianity 101.

Yes, those that reject Christ go to hell.


Is God just? And what does repentance mean to you?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Quo Vadis?
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dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

BonfireNerd04 said:

Quote:

And just curious, who do you think were damned. The Christian Nazis who killed millions of Jews? Or the Jews who did not believe in Jesus?
Especially Adolf Eichmann, who was given Catholic last rights the night before he was hanged for crimes against humanity.


Makes me sick at my stomach.


Why? Is he the only guy who deserves hell for eternity?
I do not believe anyone of God's created people deserve "hell" for eternity.

Do you think the Jews Eichmann murdered are in "hell"?


Yes quite possibly. And if Eichmann repented at the end he's in heaven. Are there some sins which are unforgivable?
So if I murder a million Jews and repent before I die, I am okay? But the Jews are in eternal conscious torment hell?




Yes, if you do literally anything and you genuinely repent before you die you go to heaven. This is Christianity 101.

Yes, those that reject Christ go to hell.


Is God just? And what does repentance mean to you?


I thank God that he is merciful and does not give us what we deserve. Repentance means the sorrow and acceptance of your sin, the understanding that what you did was wrong, and the desire if not the ability to sin no more.
Sapper Redux
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Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

BonfireNerd04 said:

Quote:

And just curious, who do you think were damned. The Christian Nazis who killed millions of Jews? Or the Jews who did not believe in Jesus?
Especially Adolf Eichmann, who was given Catholic last rights the night before he was hanged for crimes against humanity.


Makes me sick at my stomach.


Why? Is he the only guy who deserves hell for eternity?
I do not believe anyone of God's created people deserve "hell" for eternity.

Do you think the Jews Eichmann murdered are in "hell"?


Yes quite possibly. And if Eichmann repented at the end he's in heaven. Are there some sins which are unforgivable?
So if I murder a million Jews and repent before I die, I am okay? But the Jews are in eternal conscious torment hell?




Yes, if you do literally anything and you genuinely repent before you die you go to heaven. This is Christianity 101.

Yes, those that reject Christ go to hell.


What a lovely faith. Tortured? Starved? Watched your wife and children sent to the gas chambers and then cremated despite having done nothing to deserve it? You get eternal torture with no relief for that. But the guy who tortured you and profited from it gets eternal paradise because he felt bad about it 10 seconds before his death.
dermdoc
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AG
Sapper Redux said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

BonfireNerd04 said:

Quote:

And just curious, who do you think were damned. The Christian Nazis who killed millions of Jews? Or the Jews who did not believe in Jesus?
Especially Adolf Eichmann, who was given Catholic last rights the night before he was hanged for crimes against humanity.


Makes me sick at my stomach.


Why? Is he the only guy who deserves hell for eternity?
I do not believe anyone of God's created people deserve "hell" for eternity.

Do you think the Jews Eichmann murdered are in "hell"?


Yes quite possibly. And if Eichmann repented at the end he's in heaven. Are there some sins which are unforgivable?
So if I murder a million Jews and repent before I die, I am okay? But the Jews are in eternal conscious torment hell?




Yes, if you do literally anything and you genuinely repent before you die you go to heaven. This is Christianity 101.

Yes, those that reject Christ go to hell.


What a lovely faith. Tortured? Starved? Watched your wife and children sent to the gas chambers and then cremated despite having done nothing to deserve it? You get eternal torture with no relief for that. But the guy who tortured you and profited from it gets eternal paradise because he felt bad about it 10 seconds before his death.
That is not what I believe. And Happy Passover my friend!
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Quo Vadis?
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Sapper Redux said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

BonfireNerd04 said:

Quote:

And just curious, who do you think were damned. The Christian Nazis who killed millions of Jews? Or the Jews who did not believe in Jesus?
Especially Adolf Eichmann, who was given Catholic last rights the night before he was hanged for crimes against humanity.


Makes me sick at my stomach.


Why? Is he the only guy who deserves hell for eternity?
I do not believe anyone of God's created people deserve "hell" for eternity.

Do you think the Jews Eichmann murdered are in "hell"?


Yes quite possibly. And if Eichmann repented at the end he's in heaven. Are there some sins which are unforgivable?
So if I murder a million Jews and repent before I die, I am okay? But the Jews are in eternal conscious torment hell?




Yes, if you do literally anything and you genuinely repent before you die you go to heaven. This is Christianity 101.

Yes, those that reject Christ go to hell.


What a lovely faith. Tortured? Starved? Watched your wife and children sent to the gas chambers and then cremated despite having done nothing to deserve it? You get eternal torture with no relief for that. But the guy who tortured you and profited from it gets eternal paradise because he felt bad about it 10 seconds before his death.


Good lord can we go a moment without hearing about the holocaust? It's Easter Sapper, please withhold your kvetching until tomorrow please
swimmerbabe11
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I have no interest in a small Christ who can only forgive small sins. Christ died for every single individual and each of their individual sins. Believe and repent and be washed like new.
Quo Vadis?
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dermdoc said:

Sapper Redux said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

BonfireNerd04 said:

Quote:

And just curious, who do you think were damned. The Christian Nazis who killed millions of Jews? Or the Jews who did not believe in Jesus?
Especially Adolf Eichmann, who was given Catholic last rights the night before he was hanged for crimes against humanity.


Makes me sick at my stomach.


Why? Is he the only guy who deserves hell for eternity?
I do not believe anyone of God's created people deserve "hell" for eternity.

Do you think the Jews Eichmann murdered are in "hell"?


Yes quite possibly. And if Eichmann repented at the end he's in heaven. Are there some sins which are unforgivable?
So if I murder a million Jews and repent before I die, I am okay? But the Jews are in eternal conscious torment hell?




Yes, if you do literally anything and you genuinely repent before you die you go to heaven. This is Christianity 101.

Yes, those that reject Christ go to hell.


What a lovely faith. Tortured? Starved? Watched your wife and children sent to the gas chambers and then cremated despite having done nothing to deserve it? You get eternal torture with no relief for that. But the guy who tortured you and profited from it gets eternal paradise because he felt bad about it 10 seconds before his death.
That is not what I believe. And Happy Passover my friend!


What do you believe? People who repent are sent to temporal hell, and non believers go to heaven?
dermdoc
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AG
Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Sapper Redux said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

BonfireNerd04 said:

Quote:

And just curious, who do you think were damned. The Christian Nazis who killed millions of Jews? Or the Jews who did not believe in Jesus?
Especially Adolf Eichmann, who was given Catholic last rights the night before he was hanged for crimes against humanity.


Makes me sick at my stomach.


Why? Is he the only guy who deserves hell for eternity?
I do not believe anyone of God's created people deserve "hell" for eternity.

Do you think the Jews Eichmann murdered are in "hell"?


Yes quite possibly. And if Eichmann repented at the end he's in heaven. Are there some sins which are unforgivable?
So if I murder a million Jews and repent before I die, I am okay? But the Jews are in eternal conscious torment hell?




Yes, if you do literally anything and you genuinely repent before you die you go to heaven. This is Christianity 101.

Yes, those that reject Christ go to hell.


What a lovely faith. Tortured? Starved? Watched your wife and children sent to the gas chambers and then cremated despite having done nothing to deserve it? You get eternal torture with no relief for that. But the guy who tortured you and profited from it gets eternal paradise because he felt bad about it 10 seconds before his death.
That is not what I believe. And Happy Passover my friend!


What do you believe? People who repent are sent to temporal hell, and non believers go to heaven?
Wow. And Scripture says "heaven" is actually the New Jerusalem on the recreated Earth,
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
dermdoc
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AG
And I also believe that neither you or I know what happens to anybody. But that is not what the Gospel is about.

It is about living the best life we can for Christ now.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
 
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