A special prayer for the Jews and those who do not believe in Christ for Holy Week

17,479 Views | 262 Replies | Last: 8 mo ago by Aggrad08
Howdy, it is me!
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kurt vonnegut said:

Zobel said:

you didn't ask me, but your framing is the problem here.

the question isn't "rightly acknowledge and worship God" as in he's the Big Bad and if you aren't nice to him he gets angry at you.

and you have to wonder at being tortured (by whom?)

people are in need of salvation from the consequences of sin, and their own sins. the absence of that salvation leads to eternal condemnation. salvation is the cure for this problem, and only comes through grace from God. that grace can be rejected.

the person who rejects God will not be saved. this has nothing to do with "justly" or otherwise.

You are always welcome to interject, whether asked or not.

When I read your response, it feels to me like you believe these statements are part of some natural order beyond God.

For example: Why does "the absence of that salvation lead to eternal condemnation." ? Is this the result of some law of reality that supersedes the Christian God? Or is it a direct consequence of rules set forth by that Christian God? Assuming the latter, then the reason that I need salvation is because of God. The criteria for salvation is set by God. And the consequences of rejecting God's grace is set by God.

If I am to be tortured for rejecting God, then it is because God choose this punishment for those that reject him. God could choose to not punish me. God could choose to send me to atheist Heaven. God could choose to wipe my mind and reprogram me like a computer to love Him by removing my free will. God could choose to anything. The consequences of these choices are all decided by God.

No one chooses torture. Imagine a soldier is captured and told to give information or be killed. The soldier then keeps their mouth shut and is killed. Did the soldier choose death? Is this the outcome that the soldier desired? Or did the captor give the captive a bull**** choice and force the captive to play? The captor makes the rules, determines how the captive can 'save' themselves, and also established the penalties.

I did not choose to be born. I did not choose to be in need of salvation. I did not choose to be made into a being who will inevitably 'sin'. I did not choose the rules for salvation. I did not choose the consequences of rejecting the one creates the rules. I am offered a choice between absolute subjugation to the authority of God or torture. I am not permitted to disagree with God and yet I'm told I have the gift of free will.

To me, this is the concerning thing about the Christian notion of God. God must be all good. And so if someday you die and learn that God enjoys (sadistically) the torturing of non-compliant humans, then you must admit this is good. It is good because God does it. And you are not permitted to disagree. . . or rather, you can disagree, but that means you will be tortured as well.

You can tell me all day long that you don't believe in this type of God. But, unless you possess absolute and perfect knowledge of the infinite superbeing of God, then you don't really know. And this framing of God's goodness as unquestionable and undeniably perfectly good on a cosmic, universal, and absolute sense means that your intuition means nothing. Absolutely everything about you that does not fit the exact mold that you demanded to fit into is evil and wrong. Anything unique about you that does not exactly fit the exact mold that you are demanded to fit into is evil and wrong. And this is all a good thing.

Thats a lot of words I just shoved in your mouth. Not my intention. These are just my ramblings in hope of explaining my concern about the nature of the proposed Christian idea of God.


If you ever do want to consider becoming a believer, you'd make an excellent reformed baptist.
BonfireNerd04
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HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

Ag_of_08 said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Ag_of_08 said:

....you actually believe the victims of the holocaust where damned to suffer for eternity, but maintain your god is kind and loving?

Honest question.
Yes


Then your God is evil and cruel.


No sense to that argument. Just because someone suffered on earth doesn't mean they automatically go to heaven. You deny Christ and don't repent then you go to hell



Where does it say that in the Bible?


"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven."



Quoting the New Testament is circular reasoning.

Where in the TaNaKh (aka "Old Testament") does it say that not accepting the messiah as divine is punished with eternal hell?
Quo Vadis?
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BonfireNerd04 said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

Ag_of_08 said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Ag_of_08 said:

....you actually believe the victims of the holocaust where damned to suffer for eternity, but maintain your god is kind and loving?

Honest question.
Yes


Then your God is evil and cruel.


No sense to that argument. Just because someone suffered on earth doesn't mean they automatically go to heaven. You deny Christ and don't repent then you go to hell



Where does it say that in the Bible?


"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven."



Quoting the New Testament is circular reasoning.

Where in the TaNaKh (aka "Old Testament") does it say that not accepting the messiah as divine is punished with eternal hell?


When someone asks where something is in the Bible, and we quote the New Testament, it's not circular reasoning
HtownAg19
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AG
BonfireNerd04 said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

Ag_of_08 said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Ag_of_08 said:

....you actually believe the victims of the holocaust where damned to suffer for eternity, but maintain your god is kind and loving?

Honest question.
Yes


Then your God is evil and cruel.


No sense to that argument. Just because someone suffered on earth doesn't mean they automatically go to heaven. You deny Christ and don't repent then you go to hell



Where does it say that in the Bible?


"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven."



Quoting the New Testament is circular reasoning.

Where in the TaNaKh (aka "Old Testament") does it say that not accepting the messiah as divine is punished with eternal hell?


Why do we have to look to the Old Testament when the literal Messiah said not accepting Him is punished with eternal hell? He asked where it said that in the Bible and last I checked the New Testament is part of the Bible
dermdoc
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AG
HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

Ag_of_08 said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Ag_of_08 said:

....you actually believe the victims of the holocaust where damned to suffer for eternity, but maintain your god is kind and loving?

Honest question.
Yes


Then your God is evil and cruel.


No sense to that argument. Just because someone suffered on earth doesn't mean they automatically go to heaven. You deny Christ and don't repent then you go to hell



Where does it say that in the Bible?


"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven."



Where in that verse does it say anything about eternal conscious torment?

You are using eisigeses. Letting pre formed ideas influence your interpretation.
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Quo Vadis?
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dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

Ag_of_08 said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Ag_of_08 said:

....you actually believe the victims of the holocaust where damned to suffer for eternity, but maintain your god is kind and loving?

Honest question.
Yes


Then your God is evil and cruel.


No sense to that argument. Just because someone suffered on earth doesn't mean they automatically go to heaven. You deny Christ and don't repent then you go to hell



Where does it say that in the Bible?


"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven."



Where in that verse does it say anything about eternal conscious torment?

You are using eisigeses. Letting pre formed ideas influence your interpretation.

How is that not what you're doing? Being denied in front of God, by God seems temporary?
HtownAg19
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AG
dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

Ag_of_08 said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Ag_of_08 said:

....you actually believe the victims of the holocaust where damned to suffer for eternity, but maintain your god is kind and loving?

Honest question.
Yes


Then your God is evil and cruel.


No sense to that argument. Just because someone suffered on earth doesn't mean they automatically go to heaven. You deny Christ and don't repent then you go to hell



Where does it say that in the Bible?


"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven."



Where in that verse does it say anything about eternal conscious torment?

You are using eisigeses. Letting pre formed ideas influence your interpretation.


Ok then you tell me what Jesus means when He says He will deny them in Heaven
dermdoc
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AG
Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

Ag_of_08 said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Ag_of_08 said:

....you actually believe the victims of the holocaust where damned to suffer for eternity, but maintain your god is kind and loving?

Honest question.
Yes


Then your God is evil and cruel.


No sense to that argument. Just because someone suffered on earth doesn't mean they automatically go to heaven. You deny Christ and don't repent then you go to hell



Where does it say that in the Bible?


"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven."



Where in that verse does it say anything about eternal conscious torment?

You are using eisigeses. Letting pre formed ideas influence your interpretation.

How is that not what you're doing? Being denied in front of God, by God seems temporary?


I don't know. Do you?
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dermdoc
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AG
HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

Ag_of_08 said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Ag_of_08 said:

....you actually believe the victims of the holocaust where damned to suffer for eternity, but maintain your god is kind and loving?

Honest question.
Yes


Then your God is evil and cruel.


No sense to that argument. Just because someone suffered on earth doesn't mean they automatically go to heaven. You deny Christ and don't repent then you go to hell



Where does it say that in the Bible?


"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven."



Where in that verse does it say anything about eternal conscious torment?

You are using eisigeses. Letting pre formed ideas influence your interpretation.


Ok then you tell me what Jesus means when He says He will deny them in Heaven


The Scriptural description of "heaven" is actually the New Jerusalem coming down to Earth when Jesus returns. That is when judgement occurs. I have no idea what the consequences of rejecting Jesus are but they are certainly not stated in the passage mentioned.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
HtownAg19
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AG
dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

Ag_of_08 said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Ag_of_08 said:

....you actually believe the victims of the holocaust where damned to suffer for eternity, but maintain your god is kind and loving?

Honest question.
Yes


Then your God is evil and cruel.


No sense to that argument. Just because someone suffered on earth doesn't mean they automatically go to heaven. You deny Christ and don't repent then you go to hell



Where does it say that in the Bible?


"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven."



Where in that verse does it say anything about eternal conscious torment?

You are using eisigeses. Letting pre formed ideas influence your interpretation.


Ok then you tell me what Jesus means when He says He will deny them in Heaven


The Scriptural description of "heaven" is actually the New Jerusalem coming down to Earth when Jesus returns. That is when judgement occurs. I have no idea what the consequences of rejecting Jesus are but they are certainly not stated in the passage mentioned.


You literally cannot get more blatant than "I will deny him before my Father in Heaven". Only by hiding your head in the sand can you find some alternative meaning
Quo Vadis?
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dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

Ag_of_08 said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Ag_of_08 said:

....you actually believe the victims of the holocaust where damned to suffer for eternity, but maintain your god is kind and loving?

Honest question.
Yes


Then your God is evil and cruel.


No sense to that argument. Just because someone suffered on earth doesn't mean they automatically go to heaven. You deny Christ and don't repent then you go to hell



Where does it say that in the Bible?


"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven."



Where in that verse does it say anything about eternal conscious torment?

You are using eisigeses. Letting pre formed ideas influence your interpretation.

How is that not what you're doing? Being denied in front of God, by God seems temporary?


I don't know. Do you?


Yes, being denied before God means being denied before God. It means being rejected from life with God, which is what we call "heaven"
Quo Vadis?
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dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

Ag_of_08 said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Ag_of_08 said:

....you actually believe the victims of the holocaust where damned to suffer for eternity, but maintain your god is kind and loving?

Honest question.
Yes


Then your God is evil and cruel.


No sense to that argument. Just because someone suffered on earth doesn't mean they automatically go to heaven. You deny Christ and don't repent then you go to hell



Where does it say that in the Bible?


"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven."



Where in that verse does it say anything about eternal conscious torment?

You are using eisigeses. Letting pre formed ideas influence your interpretation.


Ok then you tell me what Jesus means when He says He will deny them in Heaven


The Scriptural description of "heaven" is actually the New Jerusalem coming down to Earth when Jesus returns. That is when judgement occurs. I have no idea what the consequences of rejecting Jesus are but they are certainly not stated in the passage mentioned.


Doc you're making things up out of whole cloth. Examine the Lord's Prayer, Heaven is where God is. It's the place where Satan was thrown out of, it's the place the righteous go when they die, it will only be on earth after the 2nd coming.

And the last part couldn't be farther from the truth.

What does "whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him"

2 Thessalonians discusses those who don't know God or obey Jesus being punished for eternity and shut out from the glory of Christ.
dermdoc
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AG
HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

Ag_of_08 said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Ag_of_08 said:

....you actually believe the victims of the holocaust where damned to suffer for eternity, but maintain your god is kind and loving?

Honest question.
Yes


Then your God is evil and cruel.


No sense to that argument. Just because someone suffered on earth doesn't mean they automatically go to heaven. You deny Christ and don't repent then you go to hell



Where does it say that in the Bible?


"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven."



Where in that verse does it say anything about eternal conscious torment?

You are using eisigeses. Letting pre formed ideas influence your interpretation.


Ok then you tell me what Jesus means when He says He will deny them in Heaven


The Scriptural description of "heaven" is actually the New Jerusalem coming down to Earth when Jesus returns. That is when judgement occurs. I have no idea what the consequences of rejecting Jesus are but they are certainly not stated in the passage mentioned.


You literally cannot get more blatant than "I will deny him before my Father in Heaven". Only by hiding your head in the sand can you find some alternative meaning



I agree. But where does it talk about punishment? Especially ECT punishment? It is just not there unless you add stuff.
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dermdoc
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AG
Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

Ag_of_08 said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Ag_of_08 said:

....you actually believe the victims of the holocaust where damned to suffer for eternity, but maintain your god is kind and loving?

Honest question.
Yes


Then your God is evil and cruel.


No sense to that argument. Just because someone suffered on earth doesn't mean they automatically go to heaven. You deny Christ and don't repent then you go to hell



Where does it say that in the Bible?


"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven."



Where in that verse does it say anything about eternal conscious torment?

You are using eisigeses. Letting pre formed ideas influence your interpretation.


Ok then you tell me what Jesus means when He says He will deny them in Heaven


The Scriptural description of "heaven" is actually the New Jerusalem coming down to Earth when Jesus returns. That is when judgement occurs. I have no idea what the consequences of rejecting Jesus are but they are certainly not stated in the passage mentioned.


Doc you're making things up out of whole cloth. Examine the Lord's Prayer, Heaven is where God is. It's the place where Satan was thrown out of, it's the place the righteous go when they die, it will only be on earth after the 2nd coming.

And the last part couldn't be farther from the truth.

What does "whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him"

2 Thessalonians discusses those who don't know God or obey Jesus being punished for eternity and shut out from the glory of Christ.



And that states destruction which to me means annihilationism. What does destruction mean to you?

Actually there is more Scriptural basis for annihilationism than ECT hell or ultimate reconciliation.
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dermdoc
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AG
HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

Ag_of_08 said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Ag_of_08 said:

....you actually believe the victims of the holocaust where damned to suffer for eternity, but maintain your god is kind and loving?

Honest question.
Yes


Then your God is evil and cruel.


No sense to that argument. Just because someone suffered on earth doesn't mean they automatically go to heaven. You deny Christ and don't repent then you go to hell



Where does it say that in the Bible?


"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven."



Where in that verse does it say anything about eternal conscious torment?

You are using eisigeses. Letting pre formed ideas influence your interpretation.


Ok then you tell me what Jesus means when He says He will deny them in Heaven


The Scriptural description of "heaven" is actually the New Jerusalem coming down to Earth when Jesus returns. That is when judgement occurs. I have no idea what the consequences of rejecting Jesus are but they are certainly not stated in the passage mentioned.


You literally cannot get more blatant than "I will deny him before my Father in Heaven". Only by hiding your head in the sand can you find some alternative meaning



But it does not say what the punishment is, does it?
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Zobel
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AG
I think first you need to get past the more elementary understanding of good and evil. For example your re-presentation of the Euthyphro dilemma (does God command actions because they are good or are actions good because God commands them?) is again a framework that doesn't produce a solution; the former undermines God by appealing to an external standard, and the latter becomes a tautology when we're trying to understand the goodness of God.

We can't assume a morally neutral framework, or even a naturalistic one. The former, because then we have no means to actually understand, the latter because different societies derive different ethics from "nature". We also can't appeal to pre-Christian understandings of good and bad because these were about qualities as opposed to actions - virtues were about excellence, not moral goodness, and this justified societal structures such as slavery.

If you want to take a Christian ethical framework (e.g., equality of worth of human life because it is human) that's fine, but then you also can't reject it out of hand without justification. You need to show why Christian ethics are superior or inferior or preferred to pre-Christian / pagan frameworks which find Christian ethics ridiculous.

Because you are a westerner you likely assume a Christian framework, broadly speaking. If we want to understand good and evil within that framework we should start with the axiom not of goodness but of evil. Evil itself IS the power of sin that humanity becomes enslaved to, which brings death and destruction and masters humans to their destruction. This is contrasted to goodness, which is justice, righteousness, order, life - and specifically flourishing life, good life, not just continued biological existence. But this is not sufficient in itself to describe God's goodness, because He is not limited to justice, or order as opposed to chaos, or flourishing as opposed to decay.

God has absolute freedom, and is not bound by necessity, or an external standard like justice, or even a teleological progression (i.e. God has no "aim" or "end-state"). This is why He is God, uncreated, unchanging. This is why He is distinct from both created beings like humans and even the claims of the pagan gods. We Christians understand that this freedom is part of Who and What He Is, His essential essence, which is beyond knowing or defining or categorization, being before and above and distinct from all created things.

His goodness becomes known to us by His actions, which we call His energies (from the Greek for work). These actions are part of Him, they are God, and they are eternal activities - loving, creating, healing, showing mercy, etc. They become known to us in time as we experience them. Good, then, is God's divine nature in action, a kind of vector sum of His energies.

For humans to be good, then, is for us to participate in those energies, and this is how humans are both healed of sin and flourish in life. Goodness and freedom come from this participation, because it frees us from the slavery to sin, chaos, death, and destruction.

This breaks the Euthyphro dilemma which is asking us to know whether things are good because God slaps the good label on them vs saying "He does good things so we call Him good". The problem is the Platonic mindset that expects goodness to be a form or abstract quality that requires an external reference point for meaning. Instead, God is personal and relational (a main difference between Platonic and Christian theology). We know God through His energies, and what we know from them is good because they bring life, order, flourishing. When we do good deeds, we're not copying what we call good, we are actively participating in God's eternal activities, and that goodness acts upon us. As opposed to picking between external standard and arbitrary divine will, here good is the eternal action of God Himself, made known through participation.

So - that being said - with good itself is so experienced and defined - I think you can see the challenge to Plato framework you're assuming here. God did not arbitrarily assume punishment. God's eternal actions are good, and life-giving, and being separated from them is chaos and separation from life: death itself. Death begins with physical death, and culminates in spiritual death.

The premise of coercion and torture you're assuming are not givens. Hell is not a masochistic torture pit. The image of hell - weeping and gnashing of teeth - is that of insanity, of loss of coherence of being. Loss of humanity, which is a loss of the image of God. If people are in hell, this hell is one of love, perceived as bad by those who hate Him - not because He wills them to suffer.

Your analogy of soldier and captive fail in the same way. This isn't a coercive tyrant setting arbitrary rules - the "rules" of love, righteousness, life, flourishing are God's eternal actions, His being in action. Rejecting this life and flourishing is not a choice between subjugation and punishment.

Similarly He is not subject to necessity. He is totally free. He is not bound to punish, reward, create in any way whatever. So while God could absolutely reprogram minds, what we know of God as revealed by His energies - which are again oriented to life, order, flourishing, mercy, love - would be contradicted by this type of manipulation or domination.

The hypothetical of sadistic torture being called good (back to Euthyphro) is already answered - such actions are not life-giving or coherent with the image of God the Father revealed perfectly in the person of Jesus Christ, who loves His enemies, forgives them, and dies to free them from death and slavery.

Free will is not as small of an idea as choosing between an arbitrary set of options. That's an objection I've seen here said, that humans aren't free because they can't fly - if so, only God is free, which is fine and true, but then we need to have another term to re-enter human experience. Instead freedom is the freedom to flourish, to grow toward our purpose, our teleological end. The call is not to pick between submission and torture, but to proceed toward what you were created for, life...a truly good, abundant, flourishing life. Not choosing your existence, or your sinfulness, or your need for salvation doesn't negate your free will even though it does negate you not being free like God is free. All you've established here is that You Are Not God.

Nevertheless your life, and mine, and all of ours, are gifts given to us for our salvation toward the best possible end any of us could imagine and more. Sin distorts this, and our sins are our participation in that distortion, not a "design flaw" from God. Salvation is our choice to participate in our own freedom. Humans are not passive victims of a divine game, but created with divinely-imaged agency, and are active participants who can choose to live... or to die. So the soldier analogy breaks down, because we're not talking about arbitrary penalties but intrinsic outcomes. If you refuse to eat you certainly will die. The person who tells you this is not the one who kills you, particularly if they continually offer you food.

A sadistic God calling torture good contradicts our knowledge of God's divine energies as life-giving, merciful, plenteous in mercy, longsuffering, compassionate, loving, and self-sacrificing - and so cannot be good, is incoherent with good. Your arguments are emotionally compelling, but ultimately come from a legalistic and Platonic view of Good and Justice that are not aligned with the theology and philosophy of the Church.
dermdoc
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AG
Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

Ag_of_08 said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Ag_of_08 said:

....you actually believe the victims of the holocaust where damned to suffer for eternity, but maintain your god is kind and loving?

Honest question.
Yes


Then your God is evil and cruel.


No sense to that argument. Just because someone suffered on earth doesn't mean they automatically go to heaven. You deny Christ and don't repent then you go to hell



Where does it say that in the Bible?


"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven."



Where in that verse does it say anything about eternal conscious torment?

You are using eisigeses. Letting pre formed ideas influence your interpretation.


Ok then you tell me what Jesus means when He says He will deny them in Heaven


The Scriptural description of "heaven" is actually the New Jerusalem coming down to Earth when Jesus returns. That is when judgement occurs. I have no idea what the consequences of rejecting Jesus are but they are certainly not stated in the passage mentioned.


Doc you're making things up out of whole cloth. Examine the Lord's Prayer, Heaven is where God is. It's the place where Satan was thrown out of, it's the place the righteous go when they die, it will only be on earth after the 2nd coming.

And the last part couldn't be farther from the truth.

What does "whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him"

2 Thessalonians discusses those who don't know God or obey Jesus being punished for eternity and shut out from the glory of Christ.



And my friend, I am only reading the Scripture without additions or what I think it says.

I am not the one making anything up. Whole or half clothed.

And as far as the Lord 's prayer, of course God is in Heaven as of now. Scripture says when Jesus comes back we will be resurrected from the dead with new bodies in the New Jerusalem on earth. God will come down to us.

Now it is pretty murky what happens in the intermediate stage between death and Jesus' Second coming.

Luther believe in a "soul sleep". N T Wright seems to favor that also. I think when we die we are in the presence of the Lord but do no have complete glorification until Christ returns.

Scripture is pretty clear there is no judgement until the second coming.
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Howdy, it is me!
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AG
dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

Ag_of_08 said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Ag_of_08 said:

....you actually believe the victims of the holocaust where damned to suffer for eternity, but maintain your god is kind and loving?

Honest question.
Yes


Then your God is evil and cruel.


No sense to that argument. Just because someone suffered on earth doesn't mean they automatically go to heaven. You deny Christ and don't repent then you go to hell



Where does it say that in the Bible?


"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven."



Where in that verse does it say anything about eternal conscious torment?

You are using eisigeses. Letting pre formed ideas influence your interpretation.


Ok then you tell me what Jesus means when He says He will deny them in Heaven


The Scriptural description of "heaven" is actually the New Jerusalem coming down to Earth when Jesus returns. That is when judgement occurs. I have no idea what the consequences of rejecting Jesus are but they are certainly not stated in the passage mentioned.


Doc you're making things up out of whole cloth. Examine the Lord's Prayer, Heaven is where God is. It's the place where Satan was thrown out of, it's the place the righteous go when they die, it will only be on earth after the 2nd coming.

And the last part couldn't be farther from the truth.

What does "whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him"

2 Thessalonians discusses those who don't know God or obey Jesus being punished for eternity and shut out from the glory of Christ.



And that states destruction which to me means annihilationism. What does destruction mean to you?

Actually there is more Scriptural basis for annihilationism than ECT hell or ultimate reconciliation.


ainios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

lethros, ol'-eth-ros; from a primary llymi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. death, punishment: destruction.
Sapper Redux
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Sapper Redux said:

Leave us alone.
You will be judged one day for what you did in your life. And in that moment you won't be able to tell the judge to leave you alone.


Cool. Leave it between us, in that case, and leave Jews alone.
Quo Vadis?
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dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

Ag_of_08 said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Ag_of_08 said:

....you actually believe the victims of the holocaust where damned to suffer for eternity, but maintain your god is kind and loving?

Honest question.
Yes


Then your God is evil and cruel.


No sense to that argument. Just because someone suffered on earth doesn't mean they automatically go to heaven. You deny Christ and don't repent then you go to hell



Where does it say that in the Bible?


"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven."



Where in that verse does it say anything about eternal conscious torment?

You are using eisigeses. Letting pre formed ideas influence your interpretation.


Ok then you tell me what Jesus means when He says He will deny them in Heaven


The Scriptural description of "heaven" is actually the New Jerusalem coming down to Earth when Jesus returns. That is when judgement occurs. I have no idea what the consequences of rejecting Jesus are but they are certainly not stated in the passage mentioned.


Doc you're making things up out of whole cloth. Examine the Lord's Prayer, Heaven is where God is. It's the place where Satan was thrown out of, it's the place the righteous go when they die, it will only be on earth after the 2nd coming.

And the last part couldn't be farther from the truth.

What does "whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him"

2 Thessalonians discusses those who don't know God or obey Jesus being punished for eternity and shut out from the glory of Christ.



And that states destruction which to me means annihilationism. What does destruction mean to you?

Actually there is more Scriptural basis for annihilationism than ECT hell or ultimate reconciliation.


How does "punished with everlasting destruction" mean annihilation? How does the wrath of God remaining on him point towards annihilation?
dermdoc
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AG
Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

Ag_of_08 said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Ag_of_08 said:

....you actually believe the victims of the holocaust where damned to suffer for eternity, but maintain your god is kind and loving?

Honest question.
Yes


Then your God is evil and cruel.


No sense to that argument. Just because someone suffered on earth doesn't mean they automatically go to heaven. You deny Christ and don't repent then you go to hell



Where does it say that in the Bible?


"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven."



Where in that verse does it say anything about eternal conscious torment?

You are using eisigeses. Letting pre formed ideas influence your interpretation.


Ok then you tell me what Jesus means when He says He will deny them in Heaven


The Scriptural description of "heaven" is actually the New Jerusalem coming down to Earth when Jesus returns. That is when judgement occurs. I have no idea what the consequences of rejecting Jesus are but they are certainly not stated in the passage mentioned.


Doc you're making things up out of whole cloth. Examine the Lord's Prayer, Heaven is where God is. It's the place where Satan was thrown out of, it's the place the righteous go when they die, it will only be on earth after the 2nd coming.

And the last part couldn't be farther from the truth.

What does "whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him"

2 Thessalonians discusses those who don't know God or obey Jesus being punished for eternity and shut out from the glory of Christ.



And that states destruction which to me means annihilationism. What does destruction mean to you?

Actually there is more Scriptural basis for annihilationism than ECT hell or ultimate reconciliation.


How does "punished with everlasting destruction" mean annihilation? How does the wrath of God remaining on him point towards annihilation? Destruction means to destroy completely to me. I guess you disagree. And that is fine,
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Sapper Redux
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Quote:

A sadistic God calling torture good contradicts our knowledge of God's divine energies as life-giving, merciful, plenteous in mercy, longsuffering, compassionate, loving, and self-sacrificing - and so cannot be good, is incoherent with good


A young Jewish man murdered by Eichmann suffered torture and had his life snuffed out well before a natural death would have occurred. Because he did not accept Jesus, he must suffer eternal torment. However you choose to define it, that's what you're describing. Eichmann tortures, murders, slaughters, and personally ensures countless souls are sent to Hell without a chance at the redemption he got, according to your theology. These people suffered horrendous torments almost unimaginable in our comfort today and by your theology, suffer for endless time while their torturer and murderer enjoys eternal paradise. You can claim intrinsic goodness in God, but it does not comport with the realities of life.

I also notice you never address the simple fact that Kurt notes: we have no choice in whether we are born. We do not get to choose whether we will be forced into a dichotomy where we either go to paradise or eternal torment if we choose poorly.
Quo Vadis?
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Is this guerrilla marketing for the new biannual Holocaust movie release?
dermdoc
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AG
Martin Q. Blank said:

Sapper Redux said:

Leave us alone.
You will be judged one day for what you did in your life. And in that moment you won't be able to tell the judge to leave you alone.
Are you God? My goodness you are judgemental.

One day, I will be judged on what I did in this life. And that really humbles me.
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Zobel
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AG

Quote:

A young Jewish man murdered by Eichmann suffered torture and had his life snuffed out well before a natural death would have occurred. Because he did not accept Jesus, he must suffer eternal torment. However you choose to define it, that's what you're describing. Eichmann tortures, murders, slaughters, and personally ensures countless souls are sent to Hell without a chance at the redemption he got, according to your theology. These people suffered horrendous torments almost unimaginable in our comfort today and by your theology, suffer for endless time while their torturer and murderer enjoys eternal paradise. You can claim intrinsic goodness in God, but it does not comport with the realities of life.
I don't believe that anyone can judge other humans. "Must" is not your prerogative to determine in either hypothetical case. So no, that is not what I'm describing. As usual your attempts to explain my faith to me are fractally wrong.

Quote:

I also notice you never address the simple fact that Kurt notes: we have no choice in whether we are born. We do not get to choose whether we will be forced into a dichotomy where we either go to paradise or eternal torment if we choose poorly.
Notice harder, because I did.
Zobel
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AG
dermdoc
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AG
Howdy, it is me! said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

Ag_of_08 said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Ag_of_08 said:

....you actually believe the victims of the holocaust where damned to suffer for eternity, but maintain your god is kind and loving?

Honest question.
Yes


Then your God is evil and cruel.


No sense to that argument. Just because someone suffered on earth doesn't mean they automatically go to heaven. You deny Christ and don't repent then you go to hell



Where does it say that in the Bible?


"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven."



Where in that verse does it say anything about eternal conscious torment?

You are using eisigeses. Letting pre formed ideas influence your interpretation.


Ok then you tell me what Jesus means when He says He will deny them in Heaven


The Scriptural description of "heaven" is actually the New Jerusalem coming down to Earth when Jesus returns. That is when judgement occurs. I have no idea what the consequences of rejecting Jesus are but they are certainly not stated in the passage mentioned.


Doc you're making things up out of whole cloth. Examine the Lord's Prayer, Heaven is where God is. It's the place where Satan was thrown out of, it's the place the righteous go when they die, it will only be on earth after the 2nd coming.

And the last part couldn't be farther from the truth.

What does "whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him"

2 Thessalonians discusses those who don't know God or obey Jesus being punished for eternity and shut out from the glory of Christ.



And that states destruction which to me means annihilationism. What does destruction mean to you?

Actually there is more Scriptural basis for annihilationism than ECT hell or ultimate reconciliation.


ainios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

lethros, ol'-eth-ros; from a primary llymi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. death, punishment: destruction.

I am too tired to give this appropriate attention. So will respond tomorrow.

I will say there have been whole books written on what aionios means. It is pretty complex.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
BusterAg
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AG
kurt vonnegut said:





If I am to be tortured for rejecting God, then it is because God choose this punishment for those that reject him. God could choose to not punish me. God could choose to send me to atheist Heaven. God could choose to wipe my mind and reprogram me like a computer to love Him by removing my free will. God could choose to anything. The consequences of these choices are all decided by God.

No one chooses torture. Imagine a soldier is captured and told to give information or be killed. The soldier then keeps their mouth shut and is killed. Did the soldier choose death? Is this the outcome that the soldier desired? Or did the captor give the captive a bull**** choice and force the captive to play? The captor makes the rules, determines how the captive can 'save' themselves, and also established the penalties.

I did not choose to be born. I did not choose to be in need of salvation. I did not choose to be made into a being who will inevitably 'sin'. I did not choose the rules for salvation. I did not choose the consequences of rejecting the one creates the rules. I am offered a choice between absolute subjugation to the authority of God or torture. I am not permitted to disagree with God and yet I'm told I have the gift of free will.

To me, this is the concerning thing about the Christian notion of God. God must be all good. And so if someday you die and learn that God enjoys (sadistically) the torturing of non-compliant humans, then you must admit this is good. It is good because God does it. And you are not permitted to disagree. . . or rather, you can disagree, but that means you will be tortured as well.

You can tell me all day long that you don't believe in this type of God. But, unless you possess absolute and perfect knowledge of the infinite superbeing of God, then you don't really know. And this framing of God's goodness as unquestionable and undeniably perfectly good on a cosmic, universal, and absolute sense means that your intuition means nothing. Absolutely everything about you that does not fit the exact mold that you demanded to fit into is evil and wrong. Anything unique about you that does not exactly fit the exact mold that you are demanded to fit into is evil and wrong. And this is all a good thing.

Thats a lot of words I just shoved in your mouth. Not my intention. These are just my ramblings in hope of explaining my concern about the nature of the proposed Christian idea of God.
I think that it is important to note that all of the description of eternal torture discussed in the Bible relates only to the Devil and demons. The Bible talks a lot about hell being a bad place that you don't want to be in, but the idea of eternal torture being held for humans that reject God comes more from Dante than the Bible.

Again, I think that Kierkegaard does a better job of addressing the paradox of eternity than most others. For the true seeking mind to really accept the notion of God, one has to come to a place of acceptance that we just won't be able to really understand all of the things about eternity and the spiritual realm because we are physically limited from being able to accomplish it.

For a Western philosophy enlightenment thinker, that just feels like a cop-out. But, the longer I live and the more I experience, the more comfortable I become with the humility that the nature of God and the spiritual realm are just beyond our comprehension, and that is just OK.
It takes a special kind of brainwashed useful idiot to politically defend government fraud, waste, and abuse.
BusterAg
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AG
kurt vonnegut said:

Quo Vadis? said:



Both. I cannot force someone to Marry me even if I know it's what's best for them and that they SHOULD want it. You can't give free will and override it at the same time.

What free will do I have?
Whether or not we have free will is a metaphysical question that is just unanswerable. But, the reality is, we are better off assuming that we do have free will, because taking determinism off of the table eliminates one more excuse for bad or selfish behavior.
It takes a special kind of brainwashed useful idiot to politically defend government fraud, waste, and abuse.
Howdy, it is me!
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AG
dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

Ag_of_08 said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Ag_of_08 said:

....you actually believe the victims of the holocaust where damned to suffer for eternity, but maintain your god is kind and loving?

Honest question.
Yes


Then your God is evil and cruel.


No sense to that argument. Just because someone suffered on earth doesn't mean they automatically go to heaven. You deny Christ and don't repent then you go to hell



Where does it say that in the Bible?


"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven."



Where in that verse does it say anything about eternal conscious torment?

You are using eisigeses. Letting pre formed ideas influence your interpretation.


Ok then you tell me what Jesus means when He says He will deny them in Heaven


The Scriptural description of "heaven" is actually the New Jerusalem coming down to Earth when Jesus returns. That is when judgement occurs. I have no idea what the consequences of rejecting Jesus are but they are certainly not stated in the passage mentioned.


Doc you're making things up out of whole cloth. Examine the Lord's Prayer, Heaven is where God is. It's the place where Satan was thrown out of, it's the place the righteous go when they die, it will only be on earth after the 2nd coming.

And the last part couldn't be farther from the truth.

What does "whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him"

2 Thessalonians discusses those who don't know God or obey Jesus being punished for eternity and shut out from the glory of Christ.



And that states destruction which to me means annihilationism. What does destruction mean to you?

Actually there is more Scriptural basis for annihilationism than ECT hell or ultimate reconciliation.


ainios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

lethros, ol'-eth-ros; from a primary llymi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. death, punishment: destruction.

I am too tired to give this appropriate attention. So will respond tomorrow.

I will say there have been whole books written on what aionios means. It is pretty complex.


You don't have to; I knew you'd have some sort of comeback. But you asked so figured I'd throw out the simplest answer. Ever lasting and destruction seem pretty clear to me, but I know we don't agree.
Sapper Redux
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Zobel said:


Quote:

A young Jewish man murdered by Eichmann suffered torture and had his life snuffed out well before a natural death would have occurred. Because he did not accept Jesus, he must suffer eternal torment. However you choose to define it, that's what you're describing. Eichmann tortures, murders, slaughters, and personally ensures countless souls are sent to Hell without a chance at the redemption he got, according to your theology. These people suffered horrendous torments almost unimaginable in our comfort today and by your theology, suffer for endless time while their torturer and murderer enjoys eternal paradise. You can claim intrinsic goodness in God, but it does not comport with the realities of life.
I don't believe that anyone can judge other humans. "Must" is not your prerogative to determine in either hypothetical case. So no, that is not what I'm describing. As usual your attempts to explain my faith to me are fractally wrong.

Quote:

I also notice you never address the simple fact that Kurt notes: we have no choice in whether we are born. We do not get to choose whether we will be forced into a dichotomy where we either go to paradise or eternal torment if we choose poorly.
Notice harder, because I did.


No, you didn't. You sidestepped it. You focused on the person rather than acknowledging the inherent contradiction in claiming that God is loving towards the creation while not giving them the choice of whether they even want to play this game. Once a person exists it seems they must either join God in Heaven or be cast to Hell. No other options. No choice in the matter.
Quo Vadis?
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Sapper Redux said:

Zobel said:


Quote:

A young Jewish man murdered by Eichmann suffered torture and had his life snuffed out well before a natural death would have occurred. Because he did not accept Jesus, he must suffer eternal torment. However you choose to define it, that's what you're describing. Eichmann tortures, murders, slaughters, and personally ensures countless souls are sent to Hell without a chance at the redemption he got, according to your theology. These people suffered horrendous torments almost unimaginable in our comfort today and by your theology, suffer for endless time while their torturer and murderer enjoys eternal paradise. You can claim intrinsic goodness in God, but it does not comport with the realities of life.
I don't believe that anyone can judge other humans. "Must" is not your prerogative to determine in either hypothetical case. So no, that is not what I'm describing. As usual your attempts to explain my faith to me are fractally wrong.

Quote:

I also notice you never address the simple fact that Kurt notes: we have no choice in whether we are born. We do not get to choose whether we will be forced into a dichotomy where we either go to paradise or eternal torment if we choose poorly.
Notice harder, because I did.


No, you didn't. You sidestepped it. You focused on the person rather than acknowledging the inherent contradiction in claiming that God is loving towards the creation while not giving them the choice of whether they even want to play this game. Once a person exists it seems they must either join God in Heaven or be cast to Hell. No other options. No choice in the matter.


That's absolutely a choice.
Zobel
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AG
Your parents hate you or love you? Did they ask your permission before conceiving you? Explain what is contradicted by that.
dermdoc
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AG
Howdy, it is me! said:

dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

dermdoc said:

HtownAg19 said:

Ag_of_08 said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Ag_of_08 said:

....you actually believe the victims of the holocaust where damned to suffer for eternity, but maintain your god is kind and loving?

Honest question.
Yes


Then your God is evil and cruel.


No sense to that argument. Just because someone suffered on earth doesn't mean they automatically go to heaven. You deny Christ and don't repent then you go to hell



Where does it say that in the Bible?


"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven."



Where in that verse does it say anything about eternal conscious torment?

You are using eisigeses. Letting pre formed ideas influence your interpretation.


Ok then you tell me what Jesus means when He says He will deny them in Heaven


The Scriptural description of "heaven" is actually the New Jerusalem coming down to Earth when Jesus returns. That is when judgement occurs. I have no idea what the consequences of rejecting Jesus are but they are certainly not stated in the passage mentioned.


Doc you're making things up out of whole cloth. Examine the Lord's Prayer, Heaven is where God is. It's the place where Satan was thrown out of, it's the place the righteous go when they die, it will only be on earth after the 2nd coming.

And the last part couldn't be farther from the truth.

What does "whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him"

2 Thessalonians discusses those who don't know God or obey Jesus being punished for eternity and shut out from the glory of Christ.



And that states destruction which to me means annihilationism. What does destruction mean to you?

Actually there is more Scriptural basis for annihilationism than ECT hell or ultimate reconciliation.


ainios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

lethros, ol'-eth-ros; from a primary llymi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. death, punishment: destruction.

I am too tired to give this appropriate attention. So will respond tomorrow.

I will say there have been whole books written on what aionios means. It is pretty complex.


You don't have to; I knew you'd have some sort of comeback. But you asked so figured I'd throw out the simplest answer. Ever lasting and destruction seem pretty clear to me, but I know we don't agree.
No comeback from me. Have a great day!
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Sapper Redux
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Zobel said:

Your parents hate you or love you? Did they ask your permission before conceiving you? Explain what is contradicted by that.


My parents aren't threatening me with eternal torment if I don't love them appropriately. Additionally, my parents are part of this universe. They didn't create it nor the boundaries of existence and free will.
 
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