But how do I know?

4,690 Views | 35 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by Divining Rod
BrazosDog02
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
8:51p, 4/20/25
AG
As with every religious holiday, I find myself second guessing everything. I watch the shows. I read the books and articles. And every Christmas I find myself asking "ok, that's cool, but how do we know Mary wasn't just fooling around and had an illegitimate son and needed to cover it up?"

Right now I am struggling with "ok, but how do we know Jesus was resurrected? What if the body was moved by earthly hands to further the benefit and conspiracy?"

I am well aware that asking such questions is probably not going to be looked kindly upon by God, but I can't help it. That's my nature. You could drop a million dollars in cash in my lap and I would question it.

I don't struggle with knowing Jesus was real. I don't struggle with the idea that there is an omnipotent being. I don't struggle with His disciples…..I struggle with the paranormal and divine stuff.

Part of me thinks, there is zero chance 2 people, much less 12 can keep a lie going that long. There is zero chance so many accounts are all wrong.there is zero chance Jesus revealed himself afterward to 500 people that that was a lie. There is no way someone is willing to die for a lie, I'm certainly not, but these people did exactly that. But there is still a part of me that is bothered by what if? I don't even know why it bothers me. I mean, if I just go with it, I'm in good shape. If I'm wrong, no one cares. But still, it bugs me.

So, how do we know?
Reply Quote
6
1 edit
aggieband 83
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
9:01p, 4/20/25
AG
My answer to the question about Mary & the question about the Resurrection is the same and quite simple:

The bible says it and I believe it.
Happy Easter, Brother!
Reply Quote
16
Pro Sandy
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
9:47p, 4/20/25
AG
I don't think God gets upset with us questioning. Thomas questioned and Jesus appeared to him and proved that it was indeed him. Job questions God and God appears to him and specifically says that Job didn't sin in his questioning.

Today in our sermon, we were in 1 Corinthians 15. Paul mentions that Christ appeared in his resurrected state to over 500 people, and then Paul says that many of them are still alive. Paul is encouraging the Corinthians, 20 years after the resurrection, that if they don't believe, go talk to the people who were there and saw it. 2 people might keep a secret, 12 is difficult, but hundreds of people all part of the conspiracy? These were people who were willing to die for what they experienced in 33 AD, and I think that is a huge proof of the resurrection, that they bet everything including their life on it.
Reply Quote
20
discobrob
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
11:12p, 4/20/25
AG
Consider the evidence and apply Occam's razor.

Mountains of manuscripts of eyewitness testimony. More evidence for the resurrection than the death of Julius Caesar.
All eyewitness testimony and subsequent wrongs o cured within the lifetimes of the people who experienced these events.

500 witnesses. Paul named names.

11/12 disciples suffered for their belief in the resurrection. 10/11 martyred. None recanted.

Paul's conversion. What would it take for you to do a 180 on a firmly held belief? That's what happened to Paul. Christianity was the last thing he wanted to be true. Yet everything changed in an instant. Why? Paul says he saw the risen Christ and that changed everything.

Where is the body? The Romans wouldn't have taken it and given opportunity for rumors to spread. The disciples couldn't have taken it- no way they overpower the Roman guards. Grave robbers didn't take it - the only thing of value was clothes and they left those behind. Where is the body?

What's the simplest explanation? The apostles are telling the truth. They really saw the risen Christ.
Reply Quote
24
TexasAggie_97
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
6:45a, 4/21/25
AG
That is why it is called faith. It is belief without sight.
Reply Quote
15
Howdy, it is me!
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to TexasAggie_97 • 7:12a, 4/21/25
AG
TexasAggie_97 said:
That is why it is called faith. It is belief without sight.


But Jesus didn't expect a completely blind faith, He left the people with many, many miracles proving He was who He said He was. We do have to believe scripture but there is much evidence we can take the Bible at its word.
Reply Quote
10
barnag
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to BrazosDog02 • 7:13a, 4/21/25
BrazosDog02 said:
As with every religious holiday, I find myself second guessing everything. I watch the shows. I read the books and articles. And every Christmas I find myself asking "ok, that's cool, but how do we know Mary wasn't just fooling around and had an illegitimate son and needed to cover it up?"

Right now I am struggling with "ok, but how do we know Jesus was resurrected? What if the body was moved by earthly hands to further the benefit and conspiracy?"

I am well aware that asking such questions is probably not going to be looked kindly upon by God, but I can't help it. That's my nature. You could drop a million dollars in cash in my lap and I would question it.

I don't struggle with knowing Jesus was real. I don't struggle with the idea that there is an omnipotent being. I don't struggle with His disciples…..I struggle with the paranormal and divine stuff.

Part of me thinks, there is zero chance 2 people, much less 12 can keep a lie going that long. There is zero chance so many accounts are all wrong.there is zero chance Jesus revealed himself afterward to 500 people that that was a lie. There is no way someone is willing to die for a lie, I'm certainly not, but these people did exactly that. But there is still a part of me that is bothered by what if? I don't even know why it bothers me. I mean, if I just go with it, I'm in good shape. If I'm wrong, no one cares. But still, it bugs me.

So, how do we know?

"The Verdict on the Empty Tomb" by Val Grieve is a great read and answers these questions OP.
Reply Quote
3
94chem
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to BrazosDog02 • 7:30a, 4/21/25
Wonderful post. Our world today is polarized for many reasons, but one of the major ones is that we despise questions, and we despise the pursuit of knowledge. God is not bothered one bit by your lingering doubt. He gave you a curious mind and does not feel any threat from your use of it. More than anything, read the Bible. See how the sinews that knit it together are stronger than your doubts. You may start with any book. On this Monday, I will suggest that you start with Hebrews. Read it all at once. The Bible is God's portion of our prayer conversation. I would like to hear what he says to you.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
Reply Quote
10
BrazosDog02
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
7:41a, 4/21/25
AG
Thank you all for the support of what I really want to be true. What has been said made sense. My other question is, why do we have other religions with millions of followers? As my buddy likes to joke "2.5 billion Christian's can't be wrong!", why do other religions still exist? I'm not talking about folks like myself that are kinda there but not totally all in, even with my loose faith, there is zero chance I convert to Islam or Buddhism. What is it about their religions that makes them so sure they are right? While we're doing it, What about Jews that don't believe he is the Messiah? As per my understanding, Jesus doesn't quite make all the check boxes for them. Why?
Reply Quote
1
2 edits
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to BrazosDog02 • 7:52a, 4/21/25
AG
Other answers here have been good, but on a really practical level the answer is through worship we encounter and participate in the Resurrection. If you read 1 John he gives a series of things that say how we can know - we know Him if we...

keep His commandments
walk in the way He walked
struggle against sin
love the brethren
lay down our lives for the brethren
have confidence in God
have the Spirit
confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh
listen to His teachers
love other people
abide in love
love God and obey His commandments
have understanding

and you may read that and say, well ok, I have some of that? But maybe not all of it.. how do I do more? And the answer is really to encounter Christ directly by doing His works. That's what St Paul says, we do the works He prepared for us to do, but it is really Him working in us. That is prayer, helping the poor and needy, and ultimately offering our lives to each other and to God like He did, which is our participation in the Cross.

When you do those things, you will encounter Jesus in "the least of my brethren". That's what He says will happen. And then you will know.
Reply Quote
6
PabloSerna
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
8:15a, 4/21/25
AG
"Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!" (Mark 9:24)

+++

Start with what you believe and work up from there. Your questions are a seed of faith that is like the muster seed in the parables that can be a great tree one day. But it will need water- life giving water from the well of Christ.

You will hear a lot of good advice. I will only add that, Jesus offers us a divine friendship first and foremost, where we share in the good news that the Kingdom of God is at hand! That is how the word was spread right after the death and resurrection of Christ.
Reply Quote
5
FIDO95
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to BrazosDog02 • 8:16a, 4/21/25
AG
Are you Greek?

What I mean by that question is that Peter was widely considered a better evangelist than Paul because he converted more people to Christianity. However, when you look deeper into the matter, you learn that Peter was proclaiming to Jews who already had an understanding and acceptance of the foundation of the Christian faith (Old Testament). Paul on the other hand, was proclaiming to Greeks. When he told them "Jesus was the son of God" their response was, "Which God?".

If you find yourself more in a "Greek" position, I suspect augments of the Bible being God inspired and true probably fall flat? Calls for "blind" faith are shallow because you seek a deeper philosophical explanation?

Perhaps consider the arguments and writings of St Augustine:



Despite his mother being Christian (St. Monica who prayed for his conversion for years), he rejected Christianity. He was highly educated and an excellent orator and debater and often spoke out against Christianity. He dabbled with other religious ideas but would eventually convert to Christianity. He wrote extensively about his faith journey and the philosophical arguments that led him to Christ. His writings, from around 400 AD continue to be the backbone of much of modern Christian thought. Those writings might be a place to start if that is where you are on your journey.

Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future. The best saints seemingly had the worst pasts. There is no harm in questioning God or not seemingly knowing all the answers. God leads us to where we need to be and reveals himself by Grace alone. The real harm is to stop questioning and in doing so, failing to become the fullest potential of what God has called you to be. Praying for you Dog, FIDO.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
1
DANManman
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to BrazosDog02 • 8:33a, 4/21/25
AG
Howdy.

Something to consider from a logical standpoint is the Bible not only contains historical accounts backed up by external historical and archaeological data, doctrine proved successful by the societies in the western world, and a harmonious message written over centuries by dozens of authors, but, perhaps most importantly, the only message in the world that proclaims salvation comes not from within, but from above (as in, God provides the means to salvation through Jesus, and not through any practice or rule that depends on the follower's own abilities), and you have the most logical, grounded theological account around.

All this to say, as another poster mentioned, if you approach God in prayer to help you believe He is real, and Jesus is truly the only way to Him, God will lead you on the path to faith you are looking for. "Seek, and you will find." God bless you!
Jesus saves
Reply Quote
1 edit
dermdoc
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to BrazosDog02 • 9:22a, 4/21/25
AG
Jeremiah 29 13

You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

I used to struggle with the same questions you are asking but kept seeking and the Lord showed up. And you will know it when you feel the peace and joy that the Holy Spirit gives. It is the greatest gift you can get in this life.

Prayers for you on your journey. Be faithful and God will reveal Himself.

And please feel free to discuss with posters on here or in private messages.

Edited to add that I still sometimes finding myself doubting but now I realize it is Satan and I rebuke him in the name of Jesus and I get my peace back.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
3
3 edits
NoahAg
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
11:04a, 4/21/25
Quote:
"ok, but how do we know Jesus was resurrected? What if the body was moved by earthly hands to further the benefit and conspiracy?"
Frankly, just a little bit of research. The vast majority of New Testament scholars, both atheists and believers, acknowledge that 1) Jesus was real AND 2) Jesus was crucified. Romans took their crucifixions seriously. Soldiers tasked with guarding the tomb did so knowing fully that NO ONE could go in or out. THEIR lives were at risk. There is no lack of material on the subject. A number of great books and podcasts. Anyone hearing, reading the evidence of the resurrection and not believing is doing so volitionally so as to not believe.

I'd start with some Gary Habermas.

The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus

On the Resurrection (his new Magnus opus)

Reply Quote
2
BusterAg
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to BrazosDog02 • 12:33p, 4/21/25
AG
BrazosDog02 said:

I am well aware that asking such questions is probably not going to be looked kindly upon by God, but I can't help it.
I disagree with this vehemently.

Paul tells us that we need to be ready with an answer for our faith when asked. If we don't ask these questions to ourselves, how in the world will we be able to answer them if they are presented to us by others?

Do you think that C.S. Lewis asked himself a lot of questions about God prior to converting? How many people do you think Lewis has helped thanks to going through that rigorous process?

To answer your question about how do we know?

You just have to take that first step of faith, to choose to believe because that is a better path than not believing, and God will answer you in a way that makes the most difference for you.
It takes a special kind of brainwashed useful idiot to politically defend government fraud, waste, and abuse.
Reply Quote
4
BrazosDog02
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
2:14a, 4/23/25
AG
I've certainly appreciated and enjoyed the commentary. It does make me a bit better and I'll keep asking the questions in hopes I find my answer. I'll have to work on the faith side, my very nature is one of skepticism anyway so that's a tough task, but I'll work on it.
Reply Quote
4
Champion of Fireball
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
4:38p, 4/23/25
AG
Friend, they all doubted. This guy gets the bad rap.

Reply Quote
8
whatthehey78
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
2:12p, 4/26/25
AG
- Faith (a belief, absent of doubt, arrogance and pride)
- Requires a decision from every living soul.
- Perfect EXAMPLE = Two thieves hanging adjacent to a sinless man. One's decision gets him into the presence of the Father that very day. The other was as close to heaven as he would ever get because his choice was to mock his Savior. Doomed unless he sincerely changed his mind before he expired.
- Special NOTE; The thief who accepted Jesus for who He said He was...did not remove himself from the cross and go get baptized or perform any other 'work' to join the 'saved'.
Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires; but upon what foundation did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force! But Jesus Christ founded His upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him. - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To do evil a human being must first of all believe that what he's doing is good” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Reply Quote
3 edits
zephyr88
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
10:39a, 4/27/25
AG
Simple answer... FAITH

because without it, it's just a story.
Reply Quote
2
dermdoc
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to zephyr88 • 9:04a, 4/28/25
AG
zephyr88 said:
Simple answer... FAITH

because without it, it's just a story.
Yep. It does not matter how often you attend church, read your Bible, read devotionals, do good deeds, serve at church, etc.

It is all about faith.

Jesus never talked about "religious duties". He did not say read your Bible daily and you can move mountains.
He did talk about and reward faith.

And faith leads to trust. Which leads to joy, peace, love, and fruits of the Spirit.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
1
tamc91
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
11:16p, 5/2/25
AG
Of all the prophecy, conversions, Saul to Paul, witnesses, and martyrdom, the one thing I find most convincing is the story of Jeses' half brother, James.

He went from a skeptic, to a believer based on his witness of Jesus after the resurrection. He eventually wrote a New Testament book and is believed to have been martyred. This was Jesus' brother! I don't know about you guys, but I had a brother. I knew all of his faults. If he ran around saying he was the Messiah, I may still love him, but I wouldn't have agreed with him. Something miraculous happened to make James believe his brother was actually who He claimed to be.

This site gives a good overview: https://www.gotquestions.org/life-James.html
Reply Quote
2
DargelSkout
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
7:14p, 5/7/25
AG
OP, have you ever read the book A Case for Christ? If not, you might find it helpful.
Reply Quote
BrazosDog02
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to DargelSkout • 7:03p, 5/8/25
AG
No i havnt but i will give it a go. I am kind of at a place where i think i know the answer, i just need the facts to back it up. Like I said, it's just my unforgiving and skeptic nature. I read articles and research on physics and quantum mechanics. I dont understand all of it but I already know it's real and exists. Sometimes I feel like deep down, the answer is already here. For whatever reason, I just refuse to just go with it.

A couple of weeks ago I had a meltdown over a fit of rage about something I did. It just really set me off at the end of a tough day and I cursed God. Bad. So bad that immediately followed this rampage of rage I felt guilty. I had to pray and apologize for that. It wasn't his fault. Literally not his fault. But I blamed him for allowing me to do it anyway. At the end of the day what happened wasn't that big a deal. But I still blamed him and said things out loud I'd never tell a human if they were within arms length. Then it dawned on me later on that evening "you know, if you're so sure God isn't real or you think he might not be real, why am I cursing him, feeling bad about that, and then praying to be forgiving for my for of rage?" That's insane. If I truly don't believe then why apologize? Heck, why curse something that doesn't exist?

Anyway, like I said, I think I know the answer already deep down, I'm just stubborn. I truly appreciate the feedback. I'm an a-hole when it comes to this stuff but a lot of time it's out of jealousy. I truly meet people that are so firm in their faith that evil doesn't bother them and that frustrates me because I'm not there.
Reply Quote
DirtDiver
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
11:05a, 5/12/25
What convinces me now...

  • The evidence of what the Bible calls sin and how that has negatively impacted my life and the lives of others regardless of one's worldview.
  • The evidence of the details in creation being universally applied regardless of belief
  • The evidence of the curse in the 1st 3 chapters of Genesis being universally applicable.
  • The evidence of the divine fingerprint of prophesy filled within the biblical text. Jesus was talked about in detail by people who never knew each other hundreds to over a thousand years prior to His incarnation. (Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1 while dying on the cross, why?).
  • Corroboration in archaeology
  • Corroboration in history

The fact that Jesus cannot be considered a great teacher if the things he said about God and Himself are not true.

Books that have exposed me to evidence:
Cold case Christianity - J Warner Wallace (former atheist)
The Case for Christ - Lee Strobel

Talks by Frank Turek - Author of "I do not have enough faith to be an atheist"
YouTube: Expedition Bible - Archaeology


Reply Quote
heteroscedasticity
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to BrazosDog02 • 1:23p, 5/22/25
BrazosDog02 said:
As with every religious holiday, I find myself second guessing everything. I watch the shows. I read the books and articles. And every Christmas I find myself asking "ok, that's cool, but how do we know Mary wasn't just fooling around and had an illegitimate son and needed to cover it up?"

Right now I am struggling with "ok, but how do we know Jesus was resurrected? What if the body was moved by earthly hands to further the benefit and conspiracy?"

I am well aware that asking such questions is probably not going to be looked kindly upon by God, but I can't help it. That's my nature. You could drop a million dollars in cash in my lap and I would question it.

I don't struggle with knowing Jesus was real. I don't struggle with the idea that there is an omnipotent being. I don't struggle with His disciples…..I struggle with the paranormal and divine stuff.

Part of me thinks, there is zero chance 2 people, much less 12 can keep a lie going that long. There is zero chance so many accounts are all wrong.there is zero chance Jesus revealed himself afterward to 500 people that that was a lie. There is no way someone is willing to die for a lie, I'm certainly not, but these people did exactly that. But there is still a part of me that is bothered by what if? I don't even know why it bothers me. I mean, if I just go with it, I'm in good shape. If I'm wrong, no one cares. But still, it bugs me.

So, how do we know?
My advice is to question it all with a skeptical eye and hold bible claims to the highest possible standards of logical and evidentiary scrutiny. After all, if Christianity really is the truth, then it should easily pass that bar - right?
Reply Quote
1
dermdoc
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to heteroscedasticity • 2:44p, 5/22/25
AG
heteroscedasticity said:
BrazosDog02 said:
As with every religious holiday, I find myself second guessing everything. I watch the shows. I read the books and articles. And every Christmas I find myself asking "ok, that's cool, but how do we know Mary wasn't just fooling around and had an illegitimate son and needed to cover it up?"

Right now I am struggling with "ok, but how do we know Jesus was resurrected? What if the body was moved by earthly hands to further the benefit and conspiracy?"

I am well aware that asking such questions is probably not going to be looked kindly upon by God, but I can't help it. That's my nature. You could drop a million dollars in cash in my lap and I would question it.

I don't struggle with knowing Jesus was real. I don't struggle with the idea that there is an omnipotent being. I don't struggle with His disciples…..I struggle with the paranormal and divine stuff.

Part of me thinks, there is zero chance 2 people, much less 12 can keep a lie going that long. There is zero chance so many accounts are all wrong.there is zero chance Jesus revealed himself afterward to 500 people that that was a lie. There is no way someone is willing to die for a lie, I'm certainly not, but these people did exactly that. But there is still a part of me that is bothered by what if? I don't even know why it bothers me. I mean, if I just go with it, I'm in good shape. If I'm wrong, no one cares. But still, it bugs me.

So, how do we know?
My advice is to question it all with a skeptical eye and hold bible claims to the highest possible standards of logical and evidentiary scrutiny. After all, if Christianity really is the truth, then it should easily pass that bar - right?
That is great as long as you hold the same standard to everything else. There seems to always be a bias either way.

I mean, if creation is without a God, it should be easy to explain how everything started.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
1 edit
Malibu
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
6:25p, 5/22/25
I'm not sure how a post like this will land on R&P, but heres where I'm at. I don't need the Bible to be literally true or believe in the depths of my heart that Christ was literally crucified and resurrected to find great meaning, practical life living, purpose, wisdom in reading the Gospels / epistles, attend weekly mass with my family, find value in prayer, etc. I've more or less picked a tradition that is comfortable with me personally and aligns easily with American culture, but I can also read other holy texts and find the sacred in there too. I'm far from an atheist, but find it hard to relate to deeply religious people except for generally a shared moral compass and respect for tradition. I try to avoid being an edgelord with very religious friends when I get why, and also share in, a sense of the sacred and Divine, but have some apologetics reasons why I'm a no when it comes to pushing all of my religious chips in the middle of the table. But whether or not I'm right, I don't think it would change how I try to live my life.
Reply Quote
1 edit
kurt vonnegut
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to dermdoc • 7:33p, 5/22/25
AG
dermdoc said:
That is great as long as you hold the same standard to everything else. There seems to always be a bias either way.

I mean, if creation is without a God, it should be easy to explain how everything started.



I think a difference is that Christianity includes the claim that its truths are knowable and, in some cases, are readily apparent or obvious. Naturalism and atheism do not include similar claims about the easy knowability of a natural origin to the universe.

But in the interest of same standards and consistent levels of skepticism . . . . If naturalists or materialists are to be expected to explain a natural cause for existence, then Christians should be able to explain how it is that an all powerful, all knowing, timeless, spaceless and supernatural being exists. Christianity, to the best of my understanding does not offer an explanation of how God exists - just asserts that He does. And so, why can't the equivalent arguments for naturalism simply assert that a natural universe has always existed?

In the interest of consistency, to me, the existence of a causeless natural world and a causeless supernatural God feel equally unsubstantiated, unprovable, and absurd. No?
Reply Quote
1
1 edit
dermdoc
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to kurt vonnegut • 7:55p, 5/22/25
AG
kurt vonnegut said:
dermdoc said:
That is great as long as you hold the same standard to everything else. There seems to always be a bias either way.

I mean, if creation is without a God, it should be easy to explain how everything started.



I think a difference is that Christianity includes the claim that its truths are knowable and, in some cases, are readily apparent or obvious. Naturalism and atheism do not include similar claims about the easy knowability of a natural origin to the universe.

But in the interest of same standards and consistent levels of skepticism . . . . If naturalists or materialists are to be expected to explain a natural cause for existence, then Christians should be able to explain how it is that an all powerful, all knowing, timeless, spaceless and supernatural being exists. Christianity, to the best of my understanding does not offer an explanation of how God exists - just asserts that He does. And so, why can't the equivalent arguments for naturalism simply assert that a natural universe has always existed?

In the interest of consistency, to me, the existence of a causeless natural world and a causeless supernatural God feel equally unsubstantiated, unprovable, and absurd. No?
You are asking more of us than your side in my opinion.

I mean, it is real easy to say we don't know. But asking how did everything started is a very viable question. And is unanswerable by atheists in my opinion. Biggest hole in their belief system.

Forget all the stuff. What stated everything?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
2 edits
The Banned
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to kurt vonnegut • 10:01p, 5/22/25
kurt vonnegut said:
dermdoc said:
That is great as long as you hold the same standard to everything else. There seems to always be a bias either way.

I mean, if creation is without a God, it should be easy to explain how everything started.



I think a difference is that Christianity includes the claim that its truths are knowable and, in some cases, are readily apparent or obvious. Naturalism and atheism do not include similar claims about the easy knowability of a natural origin to the universe.

But in the interest of same standards and consistent levels of skepticism . . . . If naturalists or materialists are to be expected to explain a natural cause for existence, then Christians should be able to explain how it is that an all powerful, all knowing, timeless, spaceless and supernatural being exists. Christianity, to the best of my understanding does not offer an explanation of how God exists - just asserts that He does. And so, why can't the equivalent arguments for naturalism simply assert that a natural universe has always existed?

In the interest of consistency, to me, the existence of a causeless natural world and a causeless supernatural God feel equally unsubstantiated, unprovable, and absurd. No?
The whole reason for asking how the natural universe could be causeless is because we are capable of observing the natural universe and easily recognize every single thing in this material plane has a cause. The infinite regress is impossible to miss if you're looking for a beginning.

The reason this is not an equal to "how is there a causeless God?" is because God is not contained by the material universe in which all things must have a cause. Once we move beyond the material, the need for a cause no longer exists. This doesn't necessarily make the Christian God true, but the description of the Christian God is beyond the testable capabilities of "cause".
Reply Quote
kurt vonnegut
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to dermdoc • 11:14a, 5/23/25
AG
dermdoc said:


You are asking more of us than your side in my opinion.

I mean, it is real easy to say we don't know. But asking how did everything started is a very viable question. And is unanswerable by atheists in my opinion. Biggest hole in their belief system.

Forget all the stuff. What stated everything?

If your side is Christianity and my side is agnostic atheism, then I 100% understand why it appears that more is asked of your side. The reason for this appearance is that agnostic atheists make fewer claims and fewer specific claims about topics like the origin of existence. Its the whole big claims require big evidence thing. If you make lots of big claims that include extraordinary detail, that have massive implications, and you assert them with near 100% certainty, then your evidence should match. If I make fewer big claims that include ambiguous details, unknown implications, and surround my claims with statements of openness to being wrong, it is because I am not prepared to back up my claims as being true or certain.

Now, if an atheist here claims to know for certain that there is definitely no God and that the universe absolutely had a purely naturalistic origin, then I would ask just as much of that person as I am asking of you. However, the atheists in this board tend to take a 'maybe there is no God, maybe there is a God, but the Christian God doesn't seem reasonable, who knows how it all started . . . .' kind of approach.

Shouldn't less justification be asked of from the 'I've studied the question sincerely, and I just don't know' camp than the 'I definitely know' camp?

Lets say that I were to ask you a medical question and you said, "Here is my advice, but you should know that there are mixed opinions in the medical community about the best course." I would have an expectation that you would be able to provide me support for your advice and that this supporting information would include an acknowledgement of something like incomplete human understanding of medical science. I would respect this answer all day long.

Now, lets say that I ask you a medical question and you said "Here is the exact answer. I know this answer to be absolutely correct and that any other course of action will kill you." I would then have an expectation that you have absolutely conclusive, rock solid, unquestionable and perfect support for your position. I have a harder time respecting this response if your supporting evidence is unfalsifiable divine revelation.

So, yes the Christian who claims to know the origins of the universe, the nature of a supernatural super being, the will of said being, and eternal consequences of obedience to this being has a far steeper hill to climb than the agnostic who says "I have some ideas, but I really don't know for certain."

Personally, I don't know how everything started. For someone like myself, this is a more of a feature of what I believe. . . not a bug. If I am unconvinced to a solution to a question, I feel it is more reasonable to say 'I don't know' rather than propose a plausible solution that cannot be verified and assume it to be 100% correct.

And maybe you feel that you faith has all the evidence in the world and is fully justifiable. Thats fine, and who the hell am I to tell you what to believe. But, if there is a goal of convincing me that you are correct, then I would wish for supporting evidence as bullet proof as your convictions.
Reply Quote
3
1 edit
kurt vonnegut
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to The Banned • 11:59a, 5/23/25
AG
The Banned said:

The whole reason for asking how the natural universe could be causeless is because we are capable of observing the natural universe and easily recognize every single thing in this material plane has a cause. The infinite regress is impossible to miss if you're looking for a beginning.

The reason this is not an equal to "how is there a causeless God?" is because God is not contained by the material universe in which all things must have a cause. Once we move beyond the material, the need for a cause no longer exists. This doesn't necessarily make the Christian God true, but the description of the Christian God is beyond the testable capabilities of "cause".

You are proposing that God exists outside of the rules of causation. And that is fine, but its not supportable without faith. Like you said, the Christian God is beyond testing and experimentation.

My point is that I could just as reasonably solve the regress problem by inventing a property of the physical universe that solves this problem. And I can say its unsupportable without faith in naturalism and that it is beyond testing and experimentation.

If Christian apologists are permitted to selectively apply the law of causation by excluding God, then why can't anyone else?

My point in all of this is to demonstrate why I disregard the criticisms of naturalism on the basis that it is unable to explain a first cause or explain why there is something instead of nothing. Naturalism / Secularism / Atheism / Materialism does not offer a good or verifiable account of how existence came to be. Christianity offers an explanation, but I think its a total bull**** explanation. Christianity takes a question and proposes a solution which is 100% beyond human capabilities of understanding or testing and then pretends that it counts as a solution.

Imagine we were discussing the question "what is dark matter?". And I said, 'Oh, I understand dark matter. Dark matter is made up of and described by "blurgerforner". What is blurgerforner, you might ask? Well, I'm glad you asked. Blurgerforner has the properties of solving for all of the questions and mysteries and observational information we see and attribute to dark matter.

My description of a solution to dark matter does not offer any actual understanding of dark matter. And neither does describing God as some uncaused, infinite, spaceless, timeless, all powerful super being. Its all backwards, conclusion driven reasoning.

Reply Quote
1
1 edit
The Banned
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to kurt vonnegut • 1:03p, 5/23/25
kurt vonnegut said:
The Banned said:

The whole reason for asking how the natural universe could be causeless is because we are capable of observing the natural universe and easily recognize every single thing in this material plane has a cause. The infinite regress is impossible to miss if you're looking for a beginning.

The reason this is not an equal to "how is there a causeless God?" is because God is not contained by the material universe in which all things must have a cause. Once we move beyond the material, the need for a cause no longer exists. This doesn't necessarily make the Christian God true, but the description of the Christian God is beyond the testable capabilities of "cause".

You are proposing that God exists outside of the rules of causation. And that is fine, but its not supportable without faith. Like you said, the Christian God is beyond testing and experimentation.

My point is that I could just as reasonably solve the regress problem by inventing a property of the physical universe that solves this problem. And I can say its unsupportable without faith in naturalism and that it is beyond testing and experimentation.

If Christian apologists are permitted to selectively apply the law of causation by excluding God, then why can't anyone else?

My point in all of this is to demonstrate why I disregard the criticisms of naturalism on the basis that it is unable to explain a first cause or explain why there is something instead of nothing. Naturalism / Secularism / Atheism / Materialism does not offer a good or verifiable account of how existence came to be. Christianity offers an explanation, but I think its a total bull**** explanation. Christianity takes a question and proposes a solution which is 100% beyond human capabilities of understanding or testing and then pretends that it counts as a solution.

Imagine we were discussing the question "what is dark matter?". And I said, 'Oh, I understand dark matter. Dark matter is made up of and described by "blurgerforner". What is blurgerforner, you might ask? Well, I'm glad you asked. Blurgerforner has the properties of solving for all of the questions and mysteries and observational information we see and attribute to dark matter.

My description of a solution to dark matter does not offer any actual understanding of dark matter. And neither does describing God as some uncaused, infinite, spaceless, timeless, all powerful super being. Its all backwards, conclusion driven reasoning.

The bolded is why it's hard for you to see how there is an unequal ask here. That fictitious property still exists inside of space and time, rather than outside of it. Because of this, it is still testable and, therefore, does not require faith outside of "we'll find the answer one day". And that property itself would have to be contingent upon time and space existing.

Now, if you want to find something outside of space and time that isn't God and exclude that something from causation you'd be on an equal playing field, but you'd also cease to be a materialist/naturalist.

I would disagree that the case for God in general is one of conclusion driven reasoning. There is a reason both Plato and Aristotle, non-Jews living before Christ, could reach the conclusion that there is a primary creator. It actually makes a lot of sense, even outside of the Christian world view, precisely because if the beginning of the universe is confined to it's own properties, and all of it's properties require both space and time, you have zero answers available to you. Not because we haven't found it yet. It's because it would necessitate a logical fallacy. Even dark matter still requires this plane of existence for the question even be asked.

Whatever kicked off this show must be matter less, timeless and space less, etc. The "best" argument against this is that the universe is just a brute fact. That it's existence/beginning has no need to be proven because the universe itself is the eternal. Therefore the universe itself has those most necessary qualities that we would attributed to God. It doesn't get rid of those attributes because those attributes are necessary. So your untestable faith is in the timeless, spaceless, etc attributes of the universe itself, which gets really interesting.

I'm not trying to knock you for not being christian, which is why I try to cite non-christian philosophers, have looked into the physicists that believe the universe itself must have some level of consciousness in order for all this to exist, etc. When you really grapple with the idea of why there is something rather than nothing, you have to leave naturalism behind, or choose to toss the question out and leave philosophy behind.
Reply Quote
birddog7000
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to BrazosDog02 • 8:32p, 5/25/25
AG
BrazosDog02 said:
No i havnt but i will give it a go. I am kind of at a place where i think i know the answer, i just need the facts to back it up. Like I said, it's just my unforgiving and skeptic nature. I read articles and research on physics and quantum mechanics. I dont understand all of it but I already know it's real and exists. Sometimes I feel like deep down, the answer is already here. For whatever reason, I just refuse to just go with it.

A couple of weeks ago I had a meltdown over a fit of rage about something I did. It just really set me off at the end of a tough day and I cursed God. Bad. So bad that immediately followed this rampage of rage I felt guilty. I had to pray and apologize for that. It wasn't his fault. Literally not his fault. But I blamed him for allowing me to do it anyway. At the end of the day what happened wasn't that big a deal. But I still blamed him and said things out loud I'd never tell a human if they were within arms length. Then it dawned on me later on that evening "you know, if you're so sure God isn't real or you think he might not be real, why am I cursing him, feeling bad about that, and then praying to be forgiving for my for of rage?" That's insane. If I truly don't believe then why apologize? Heck, why curse something that doesn't exist?

Anyway, like I said, I think I know the answer already deep down, I'm just stubborn. I truly appreciate the feedback. I'm an a-hole when it comes to this stuff but a lot of time it's out of jealousy. I truly meet people that are so firm in their faith that evil doesn't bother them and that frustrates me because I'm not there.


I have heard it said that contending with God is worship, because you are acknowledging His holiness and authority.

The fact that you acknowledge evil exists tells me something about where you stand.

I struggle at times and when I am struggling I ask for His blessing on almost everyone I meet. I ask Him because I want to witness His goodness, I want to catch a glimpse of something wonderful. And as a result, I have witnessed some amazing things, and it has greatly strengthened my faith. I still get bothered by evil, and if most Christian's would be open and honest they too struggle. I am not Orthodox, but there are some great YouTube shorts from with the teachings of their monastics that will edify and strengthen you.

I hope and pray that God will show you the fruit of one of your prayers soon. When He does, please post a testimony of His goodness. We will join with you and sing praise to His holy name!!
Reply Quote
Page 1 of 2 ▼
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.