What's tribal here? His Excellency managed irk Catholics of both forms of the Roman Rite.PabloSerna said:
Interesting take and not surprising that we again find ourselves in tribal factions while the real work of the church goes on without us doing the will of God.
Can a member of the RCC explain how this is possible?
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Last: 2 mo ago by 747Ag
PabloSerna said:Quo Vadis? said:PabloSerna said:
Read everything before casting stones. Bishop is right. Been saying this for years- the "smoke of Satan" is not who you thought it was. Pope Paul IV wrote about this 50 plus years ago. The smoke are those who reject the reforms of Vatican II that emphasize the mission over aesthetics.
"Emphasize the mission over aesthetics" - I didn't realize they were mutually exclusive.
But let's go there. What did Vatican II reform, and how do we see these fruits played out within the church?
Having read your comments before I think you are well aware of the aim of Vatican II, to let in "fresh air" by opening the windows. An analogy for liturgical reforms that bring the laity into a full, conscious, and active worship among other things.
And yes we can see just how well that "full, conscious and active worship" is working out. Majority of "Catholics" don't attend mass, believe in the real presence(!), lack of vocations (except in more traditionally minded dioceses oddly enough), less marriages, less baptisms, etc.
PabloSerna said:Quo Vadis? said:PabloSerna said:
Read everything before casting stones. Bishop is right. Been saying this for years- the "smoke of Satan" is not who you thought it was. Pope Paul IV wrote about this 50 plus years ago. The smoke are those who reject the reforms of Vatican II that emphasize the mission over aesthetics.
"Emphasize the mission over aesthetics" - I didn't realize they were mutually exclusive.
But let's go there. What did Vatican II reform, and how do we see these fruits played out within the church?
Having read your comments before I think you are well aware of the aim of Vatican II, to let in "fresh air" by opening the windows. An analogy for liturgical reforms that bring the laity into a full, conscious, and active worship among other things.
Imagine believing that celebrating the liturgy the way it has been done for hundreds of years was stale and needed "freshening"
What fruits has this "freshening" brought to the body of Christ?
We are packed in where I'm at. Great energy and cooperation between staff and laity. It's only one parish- but then anyone can pick and choose.
I go back to what my mom shared with me. She will be 85 this year. As a child growing up in Laredo, they attended mass regularly but never understood a word of Latin. They would pray rosaries to keep busy while the priest did the prayers. She drifted during the 60's but came back home during the revival of the 70's. I distinctly remember attending these wonderful music filled prayer services at Incarnate Word in Corpus Christi. The laity were active where I grew up and in just about every parish I have been at.
My youngest, was just confirmed last week. He and his friends really enjoyed the Life Teen mass and format. We don't know anything else. Just grateful my kids still love God and care for those around them.
ETA- my mom was active in the shut-in ministry and Eucharistic adoration until recently. Guadalupana to boot. These are some of the fruits that I've seen.
I go back to what my mom shared with me. She will be 85 this year. As a child growing up in Laredo, they attended mass regularly but never understood a word of Latin. They would pray rosaries to keep busy while the priest did the prayers. She drifted during the 60's but came back home during the revival of the 70's. I distinctly remember attending these wonderful music filled prayer services at Incarnate Word in Corpus Christi. The laity were active where I grew up and in just about every parish I have been at.
My youngest, was just confirmed last week. He and his friends really enjoyed the Life Teen mass and format. We don't know anything else. Just grateful my kids still love God and care for those around them.
ETA- my mom was active in the shut-in ministry and Eucharistic adoration until recently. Guadalupana to boot. These are some of the fruits that I've seen.
Plenty. But it doesn't matter if you begin with believing the lie that the Magisterium doesn't have the Holy Spirit guiding them.
PabloSerna said:
We are packed in where I'm at. Great energy and cooperation between staff and laity. It's only one parish- but then anyone can pick and choose.
I go back to what my mom shared with me. She will be 85 this year. As a child growing up in Laredo, they attended mass regularly but never understood a word of Latin. They would pray rosaries to keep busy while the priest did the prayers. She drifted during the 60's but came back home during the revival of the 70's. I distinctly remember attending these wonderful music filled prayer services at Incarnate Word in Corpus Christi. The laity were active where I grew up and in just about every parish I have been at.
My youngest, was just confirmed last week. He and his friends really enjoyed the Life Teen mass and format. We don't know anything else. Just grateful my kids still love God and care for those around them.
ETA- my mom was active in the shut-in ministry and Eucharistic adoration until recently. Guadalupana to boot. These are some of the fruits that I've seen.
Your personal anecdote does nothing to refute the indisputable stats about the state of the Church. It doesn't matter how wonderful Lifeteen makes everyone feel when statistically 2/3 of the people there and the Church in general don't believe in one of the most fundamental teachings of the Church
PabloSerna said:
We are packed in where I'm at. Great energy and cooperation between staff and laity. It's only one parish- but then anyone can pick and choose.
I go back to what my mom shared with me. She will be 85 this year. As a child growing up in Laredo, they attended mass regularly but never understood a word of Latin. They would pray rosaries to keep busy while the priest did the prayers. She drifted during the 60's but came back home during the revival of the 70's. I distinctly remember attending these wonderful music filled prayer services at Incarnate Word in Corpus Christi. The laity were active where I grew up and in just about every parish I have been at.
My youngest, was just confirmed last week. He and his friends really enjoyed the Life Teen mass and format. We don't know anything else. Just grateful my kids still love God and care for those around them.
ETA- my mom was active in the shut-in ministry and Eucharistic adoration until recently. Guadalupana to boot. These are some of the fruits that I've seen.
You will not convince me that a person living in Laredo cannot understand a word of Latin
From the leaked memo of Bishop Martin,
"At some places in our diocese, there tends to be a recurring tendency to attempt a reclamation of the rubrics, actions, and sensibilities of the Missal of 1962 or pre-Vatican liturgical customs and to implement them in the celebration of the Novus Ordo Missae. This can also extend to art, architecture, and other liturgical and "para liturgical" celebrations."
Para-liturgical… that's a good analysis. He goes on,
" This troubling dynamic fails to envision the liturgy as the noble work of the entire Church (Sacrosanctum Concilium, 7/4) but degrades it as a personal tool amid a cultural tug-of-war that is reminiscent of what is present in our country today. As we all cry out for our civil leaders to get beyond personal gain and partisanship for the sake of working for the common good, we can all too often fall prey to the same binary modalities."
Spot on Bishop. Then he sums it up,
" It is my thought that when we find ourselves in challenging or uncertain times, it can be an easy refuge to grab hold of the past or push forward to an undetermined future as a safe haven. We tend to preface our decision making with phrases such as, "If only our Church went back to…," or "If only the Church would adapt to…." Far from delivering us from the anxiety we wish to escape, it only reinforces its own necessity to cling to this or that, further drawing us away from a real encounter with the true life of Jesus that is exemplified in his Incarnation and communicated to us through the faithful celebration of the liturgy."
" When someone embraces liturgical tendencies that harken to the liturgical life of the Church prior to the Second Vatican Council or of a Church yet to come even when done with the best and holiest of intentions , it communicates to the faithful that the Novus Ordo in itself does not have the power or capacity of transmitting the full gift of God's sacramental work and graces. Even if that unspoken message is not the minister's intention, it is communicated clearly when members of Christ's faithful are exhorted to either reclaim components that some believe were unfortunately discarded for the sake of novelty, or when they are exhorted to embrace pastoral creativity as the right of the celebrant to make the liturgy somehow more relevant. What is more, many of these extremes to one side or another bring about a contradiction to the Second Vatican Council that desired a greater engagement of the faithful. Full, conscious, and active participation is best experienced when one experiences the same liturgy celebrated from celebrant to celebrant and parish to parish."
+++
Having read the leaked memo to the priest of his Diocese, I believe he has a good assessment of the problems and is putting a plan to right the ship. Will pray for him and the people of his diocese.
"At some places in our diocese, there tends to be a recurring tendency to attempt a reclamation of the rubrics, actions, and sensibilities of the Missal of 1962 or pre-Vatican liturgical customs and to implement them in the celebration of the Novus Ordo Missae. This can also extend to art, architecture, and other liturgical and "para liturgical" celebrations."
Para-liturgical… that's a good analysis. He goes on,
" This troubling dynamic fails to envision the liturgy as the noble work of the entire Church (Sacrosanctum Concilium, 7/4) but degrades it as a personal tool amid a cultural tug-of-war that is reminiscent of what is present in our country today. As we all cry out for our civil leaders to get beyond personal gain and partisanship for the sake of working for the common good, we can all too often fall prey to the same binary modalities."
Spot on Bishop. Then he sums it up,
" It is my thought that when we find ourselves in challenging or uncertain times, it can be an easy refuge to grab hold of the past or push forward to an undetermined future as a safe haven. We tend to preface our decision making with phrases such as, "If only our Church went back to…," or "If only the Church would adapt to…." Far from delivering us from the anxiety we wish to escape, it only reinforces its own necessity to cling to this or that, further drawing us away from a real encounter with the true life of Jesus that is exemplified in his Incarnation and communicated to us through the faithful celebration of the liturgy."
" When someone embraces liturgical tendencies that harken to the liturgical life of the Church prior to the Second Vatican Council or of a Church yet to come even when done with the best and holiest of intentions , it communicates to the faithful that the Novus Ordo in itself does not have the power or capacity of transmitting the full gift of God's sacramental work and graces. Even if that unspoken message is not the minister's intention, it is communicated clearly when members of Christ's faithful are exhorted to either reclaim components that some believe were unfortunately discarded for the sake of novelty, or when they are exhorted to embrace pastoral creativity as the right of the celebrant to make the liturgy somehow more relevant. What is more, many of these extremes to one side or another bring about a contradiction to the Second Vatican Council that desired a greater engagement of the faithful. Full, conscious, and active participation is best experienced when one experiences the same liturgy celebrated from celebrant to celebrant and parish to parish."
+++
Having read the leaked memo to the priest of his Diocese, I believe he has a good assessment of the problems and is putting a plan to right the ship. Will pray for him and the people of his diocese.
This is easy to explain. A lot of Bishops over this past century were bad men, which is why we have the St. Michael prayer.
Bernandin and McCarrick, the two most powerful American bishops of their time, (remember Cardinal is basically a type of Bishop) along with Spellman, were…well, it's bad.
The Church was and to some extent still is literally infiltrated by its enemy.
This has many impacts, such as dullards doing modernist restrictions.
Bernandin and McCarrick, the two most powerful American bishops of their time, (remember Cardinal is basically a type of Bishop) along with Spellman, were…well, it's bad.
The Church was and to some extent still is literally infiltrated by its enemy.
This has many impacts, such as dullards doing modernist restrictions.
This is a bad take as the TLM looks nothing like the early masses of the first Christians.
Quo Vadis? said:
https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/charlotte-bishop-delays-tlm-changes
It's working
" I am willing to give them more time to absorb these changes."
Agree with you. It's working!
Oh?
How old was the rite? How many Saints worshipped with it?
How old was the rite? How many Saints worshipped with it?
And should we detail Bernandin? Or Bugnini?
It's very bad. Let the people do so if they wish.
It's very bad. Let the people do so if they wish.
PabloSerna said:Quo Vadis? said:
https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/charlotte-bishop-delays-tlm-changes
It's working
" I am willing to give them more time to absorb these changes."
Agree with you. It's working!
Pablo right now
The SSPX Are absolutely the worst schismatics
Who said it did and why would that be the goal?PabloSerna said:
This is a bad take as the TLM looks nothing like the early masses of the first Christians.
PabloSerna said:
This is a bad take as the TLM looks nothing like the early masses of the first Christians.
Oh yeah cause novus ordo with the guitars and drums blasting "Go Make a Difference" in a spaceship looking church with felt banners everywhere and grandma handing out communion while the priest chills at his chair sure looks like the early masses of the first Christians
HtownAg19 said:PabloSerna said:
This is a bad take as the TLM looks nothing like the early masses of the first Christians.
Oh yeah cause novus ordo with the guitars and drums blasting "Go Make a Difference" in a spaceship looking church with felt banners everywhere and grandma handing out communion while the priest chills at his chair sure looks like the early masses of the first Christians
*rythmic clapping to go make a difference resounding in my head*
Shame on you for that unfortunate ear worm... you are hereby sentenced to Christmas cringe.HtownAg19 said:PabloSerna said:
This is a bad take as the TLM looks nothing like the early masses of the first Christians.
Oh yeah cause novus ordo with the guitars and drums blasting "Go Make a Difference" in a spaceship looking church with felt banners everywhere and grandma handing out communion while the priest chills at his chair sure looks like the early masses of the first Christians
I was responding to your "modernist restrictions" take. It would seem that any development after the early church is a modernization over the original.
In reading Bishop Martin's letter to the priest he hits on the fact that many of faithful's additions to the mass, while likely done out of piety, end up becoming a self directed expression and diminish the communal worship of the whole.
To me this is at the heart of the debate between so-called traditionalist and so-called progressives. He says that these novelties only serve to detract from the liturgy. Where I see some of my Catholic brothers and sisters obsessed with a romanticized spirituality based on Gregorian chant, others see the Pachemama as an assault on the sacredness of liturgy. These can detract from the bigger picture.
St. Paul said it best when he said that nothing can separate us from love of God.
ETA: not even Star Child! Thanks David Haas
In reading Bishop Martin's letter to the priest he hits on the fact that many of faithful's additions to the mass, while likely done out of piety, end up becoming a self directed expression and diminish the communal worship of the whole.
To me this is at the heart of the debate between so-called traditionalist and so-called progressives. He says that these novelties only serve to detract from the liturgy. Where I see some of my Catholic brothers and sisters obsessed with a romanticized spirituality based on Gregorian chant, others see the Pachemama as an assault on the sacredness of liturgy. These can detract from the bigger picture.
St. Paul said it best when he said that nothing can separate us from love of God.
ETA: not even Star Child! Thanks David Haas
What is Modernism? Hint: it's not what you insinuate here... a sort of Amish-like tendency towards modernity.PabloSerna said:
I was responding to your "modernist restrictions" take. It would seem that any development after the early church is a modernization over the original.
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