PabloSerna said:

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Saw this on another thread and didn't want to hijack that one, so if PacificAg is willing to share, I would like to better understand. For those that may or may not know, I have a trans adult that has struggled with gender dysphoria since elementary school. We have walked this all the way with Jesus and see this in different light than others. We are thankful that the Catholic Church has began a dialogue with this community to ensure that they are welcomed.

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Okay, so I'm ready to elaborate.

I'll start by saying that I'm not sure what path I'll be taking. When I first met with my priest, my first question was "is this *gesturing at self* a dealbreaker?" His answer shocked me. He simply said "that's really more of a Protestant way of thinking of it. The Orthodox don't really see it as a list of items that need to be checked off before joining. It's not my job to tell you what you need to repent of. That's the Holy Spirit's job. The Spirit may reveal things you aren't even aware of. The Spirit reveals things to me that I need to repent of." So, there was no direction from him one way or the other on this topic.

But that response disarmed me a lot. I began to just show up. Every week. I'm sure people can tell I'm trans, and for the first couple months, it seemed like I would show up and nobody would really talk to me. I was fine with that because I truly met God there and that's what I went for. This began to change during Great Lent. During Great Lent, I also began to attend the Wednesday night Orthodox education classes. One night, one of the priests talked about the Orthodox view of cremation. This really is where it all began to snowball on me. He talked about why the Orthodox Church opposes cremation, and I sat there thinking about how this applies to myself and transition. The way the Church views the sanctity of the human body began to linger in my mind.

So, I just kept going and listening and praying and fasting. I kept meeting with my priest. He never once has told me to detransition. But I also remember that for years, I would say that I would never put it ahead of my faith, yet for years I began to realize that is exactly what I was doing. I have another Orthodox friend who has very gently, and lovingly, nudged me without explicitly advising "detransition". But I began to pray that the Spirit would reveal to me which path to go, and that I'll go no matter how hard it may be.

I had told another Orthodox friend that I was considering detransition, and she did caution me against making that decision during a period of "Orthodox shine". My priest even acknowledged that "shine" period. When I mentioned this to my priest, he asked me what my prayer life is like and asked if I have a prayer book. I told him I do, and that I follow the Antiochian Orthodox morning/evening prayers. He then recommended silence. He recommended that I not fixate on the detransition issue, but instead, when I get to the "personal" part of my prayers, just stand there in silence. Listen for the Spirit, and that often we talk so much in our prayers that we forget to listen.

So right now, I'm praying, listening, asking for intercession from the Saints, and learning from the Saints (St. Theodora of Alexandria and St. Mary of Egypt have taught me so much about patience). But, it's all driven, not by some Orthodox view on being transgender (which there doesn't seem to be an explicit stance), but by the Orthodox view of the sanctity of the body. I am meeting with my priest. I'm listening for the Spirit. Nothing, though, is off the table, and I think this is the first time I can honestly say that.

As my priest said, stop fixating on this one issue. He said we all go through life wearing all manner of masks. For some, it may be their role at work. Their gender identity. Their role as a spouse or parent. Something that we wear and present to the world as our selves, but the key is to start peeling away at them like it's an onion, and instead of asking "should I detransition or not", seek instead to understand who God truly created me to be. I had also noticed that in fixating on this topic, I did so early on from the perspective of settling this question so I can become Orthodox. My last conversation with my priest helped me see that that was the wrong approach. Instead, now, I want to settle this question because I just genuinely want to know who God created me to be. I want to find what is underneath all those layers.

Where that takes me, I don't know. I just know that if it does mean detransition, I'm surprisingly at peace about that. I will say that I have never felt unwelcome in the Orthodox Church, even when I would go to Orthros and Divine Liturgy, then leave without anyone talking to me at all. I never felt unwelcomed, and I truly appreciated that.

I hope this answer wasn't too long, disjointed, or rambling.

Amazing. May the Holy Ghost continue to illumine your soul.

Thank you for sharing. It takes a lot to put yourself out there and I pray that your story will help others who are struggling with the "mask" they may be wearing, whatever that may be.

May God bless you!

My heart is full of joy for you. I will be praying for the Spirit to guide you.

I'm not even going to pretend to know what it is like to walk in the shoes of someone struggling with this. I don't take it lightly and surely am not attempting to talk down to anyone. I am a sinner just as everyone else is on this board. I need to be putting my sin to death daily, just like anyone else who professes the name of Christ as Savior.

The Holy Spirit of the Bible is not going to lead you anywhere other than putting those sins to death that is outlined in Scripture. We have a clear picture of who God created us to be, and it is to be conformed to the image of Christ in the gender our Creator gave to us. This topic is cut and dry, so I would appeal that while yes, we should absolutely be following the promptings of the Spirit in our lives, the Spirit of the Bible is not going to be affirming anything other that the person the Creator of the universe made you to be. Scripture is not ambiguous or unclear.

Again, not trying to come across as harsh by any means, but this is one of those areas where truth is truth. Really no reason to side step it. The good news is that God is loving and forgiving endlessly and there is nobody who has sinned beyond the ocean of grace that is offered to us.

I have so much love for you, friend. You have been one of my favorite posters from your very first handle on this site.

You spiritual journey strengthens my faith. I truly believe your story needs to be published someday.

Happy for you that you "truly met God" and have found a welcoming community. Praying for you… pray for us too!

I don't question one's own understanding and confusion. I empathize with these struggles, even as someone who cannot relate. I have other things I confuse and muddy up in my own head.

Where there is no confusion is in a the Word of God. This is exactly why we need it. We live in obedience even in things our minds cannot fully understand.

I think it is right to be asking the Spirit to conform us to Christ in the areas we struggle with, but it is our responsibility to follow in Christ's steps even if our heart wants another a different path.

I probably wouldn't either, haha. Has your priest even attempted to open the Bible regarding the subject?

Again, all I am even suggesting is that the Word of God reveal those areas in ALL of us that need to be repentant of. It's all there already for us. There's not any new revelation for us to have.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

PacifistAg said:

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As my priest said, stop fixating on this one issue. He said we all go through life wearing all manner of masks. For some, it may be their role at work. Their gender identity. Their role as a spouse or parent. Something that we wear and present to the world as our selves, but the key is to start peeling away at them like it's an onion, and instead of asking "should I detransition or not", seek instead to understand who God truly created me to be. I had also noticed that in fixating on this topic, I did so early on from the perspective of settling this question so I can become Orthodox. My last conversation with my priest helped me see that that was the wrong approach. Instead, now, I want to settle this question because I just genuinely want to know who God created me to be. I want to find what is underneath all those layers.

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This part of your testimony reminded me of this conversation:



Matt Fradd is interviewing Ridvan Aydemir, known online as Apostate Prophet. Ridvan grew up as Sunni Muslim before joining the new Atheist movement and starting an online presence to expose the realities Islam. He explored Judaism but has now found a home in Christianity as an Orthodox Catechumen.

In the clip above, he talks about how his ego and arrogance kept him from accepting God's Grace. It was only when he humbled himself was he able to move to what he started to feel was true. He spoke with an Orthodox priest and asked "I'm an ice-cold atheist. Would you have me?". They priest responded, "Yes. I expect to see you back next week". So he "got in the 'Kabob' line" (that was a great analogy!).

It's a great interview. The opening hour is a crash course in Muslim theology and how it is incompatible with Western Civilization. He then discusses his arc of exploring various religious practices and beliefs. He stumbled on the Rosary which opened him up to the mediating on the mysteries of Christ and Christianity. He is currently attending an Orthodox church. Praying for him and you.

PabloSerna said:

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At this point, no. The first step is to widen the tent for all, "Todos, Todos, Todos" as Pope Francis said it. Not unlike what the priest told PacificAg, the Holy Spirit will lead.

This was our approach as well. We agreed to not judge, but walk together. There is no time limit, just time. We really turned this over to God and are learning more and more. What I am convinced now more than ever, is that you cannot "pray the gay away" anymore than you can re-wire your brain. The path is going to be different than say mine as a heterosexual man. However, the goal is the same- get to heaven.

ETA: LINK to an article about Pope Francis and a trans community in Italy

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This is where I think you show a real misunderstanding of the situation. I understand the last few decades of psychology claim this as the only alternative to "affirming", but it just isn't the case. Not to mention the fact that it creates a caveat for this condition that God just can't seem to help people out of. This and this alone is a place where He isn't allowed to heal.

The fact of the matter is that there is a relatively insignificant genetic factor leading to any of the LGBTQ issues. Studies are finding that less than 30% of the factors leading to trans or homosexual identities is genetic. The crazy thing about this is that religiosity has the same genetic correlation. And alcoholism has an even higher genetic factor (over 50%). I'm sure you wouldn't say that alcoholics or religious devotees are "born that way".

I hope that you can come to realize that this is primarily an issue of environment, not simply genetic predisposition. It's vital to understanding the problem, which is why the push to make LGBT issues an identity became such a focus. Sure, it's not a choice per se, because the confusion happens at such a young age. But it's also not something you are born with. Telling people that they are born this way prevents them from realizing there is a healing that they need.

And it's not "pray the gay away". It's a true search for the root of the problem through loving and caring therapists, spiritual advisors and family. The de-transition movement is gaining a lot of ground right now. The lawsuits are going to be massive. Lila Rose and Matt Fradd have had a number of de-trans people and former LGB folks that have given their testimony, some of whom has shared the real science behind it. Pacifist seems to be on a well guided journey to healing, and I will pray that it goes well. Hopefully it will be very informative for you as well.

PabloSerna said:

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" But it's also not something you are born with."

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Why are you attributing that statement to me? I didn't make that claim.

To another point you are trying to make, much of our struggle with these issues is created by a limiting factor of the English language having only the word "love". Hence, "all love" gets thrown in the same bucket. As I am sure you are aware, the Greek language has 3 words for love, Agape, Philia, and Eros. Agape is sacrificial love and is regarded as the highest form. It is the type of love Christ demonstrate the Cross sacrificing Himself for us and is stated in John 15:13. Philia is brotherly love as in a deep caring for a family member or friend. Eros, the love of passion and sex, is never used in the New Testament.

We should take great care in allowing the idea that "love is love" and that Eros has any "Christlike" value. Sex and passion, Eros, is not a "love" that should define us or move us. A husband objectifying his wife with Eros is just as guilty as an unwed couple.

All I know after living for 70 years and being a doc for 44 years I firmly believe most gays are born and hard wired that way. Some people get confused in their turbulent teens and may even "act out" somewhat.
So I believe they were created that way. In God's image.
I am not a Calvinist so I do not believe God created them only to be pre ordained to ECT hell.
We are commanded to love our neighbors. As the parable of the Good Samaritan clearly shows, we are to love everybody. As God does.

PabloSerna said:

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" But it's also not something you are born with."

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This is an astounding statement given all the data that is available and what we are finding out now. There is no 'gay gene' because it is much more complicated than first thought. What the science IS telling us is that it is BOTH genetic and environmental. That is one part of the puzzle.

What can be forgotten is that faith and reason do not cancel each other out (Fides et Ratio encyclical by Pope John Paul II). They actually compliment each other quite nicely. This is the other part of the puzzle.

Here's the revelation- God DID make you this way and he loves you very much. This is the question that needs to be cleared up and the science is increasingly showing us that some people are indeed attracted to the same sex and many more are attracted to the opposite sex.

Some of us will ask "how can this be" if what God creates is good? This is where faith (theologically speaking) is lacking in my opinion. Hung up in an endless loop that views human sexuality with a narrow lens that sees romantic love between two people as licit only between a man and a woman.

I will state right now that I do not know enough to say whether the love between two homosexual persons, given freely, and fully committed - is a reflection of God who is love- but I cannot say it is not either.

I do recognize that it is not the same as marital love between a man and a woman that culminates in the gift of new life- but there is a quality to it, at least in my limited experience, that reflects the blessing of God which is something my heart is attuned to 'seeing'.

For now, I continue the search for truth, knowing that God is leading me, having revealed some things while others remain hidden. In time we shall see.

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What are some things we are born with? Eye color. It's genetic. Hair color. Your skin color. . The height you were meant to be. These are things we are "born with". The only thing preventing us from expressing our hard-wired genetic trait is an severe environmental interruption like malnourishment, disease, etc. In those cases you fail to reach your max height, have minimal exposure to sun, etc, you weren't "born to be short/pale/etc". You have experienced a deprivation of who you were meant to be.

But for LGBT, its 30% sue to your genetics, max. Those are the stats. The overwhelming evidence shows that LGBT actions and attitudes are primarily environmental. I want to state this again, and ask for your take on this: If science has shown that your tendency towards alcoholism is over 50% due to your genetics (nearly twice that of LGBT), would you be comfortable encouraging those struggling with addiction to state that they were "born this way"? Scientifically speaking, they have far more claim to it that LGBT individuals, so maybe they should just embrace who they were born to be. Rage issues are also primarily attributed to genetics. We know hot heads run in families. Take the child from an angry family and give them a loving home. They will learn to control their emotions, but they will still feel that hatred and anger in a way their foster siblings don't. It's a very real feeling. Should we encourage wrathful people to embrace their anger and identify with it?

Your first bolded is clearly wrong. http://pbs.org/newshour/science/there-is-no-gay-gene-there-is-no-straight-gene-sexuality-is-just-complex-study-confirms#:~:text=The%20study%20shows%20that%20genes,based%20on%20the%20study's%20results.

I'm sorry Pablo, but you have adapted the philosophy of John Money, Alfred Kinsey, et al. And your attachment to this world view is holding you back from being able to see the truth that Pacifist is coming to realize. If you want to continue to search for the truth (second bolded), I encourage you to do more of what led you to start this thread. Go listen to the de-trans stories. There are a ton. Look into the how all of this ideology came to be. Give Money and Kinsey a read, since their research is the basis for it. The same ideology that Pope Francis himself declared to be evil.

I'll be praying for you and your family. I know what I'm saying may come off as confrontational, but I don't mean it that way. Our society has been force fed lies for the past 6-7 decades, and I believe it's time to be blunt in how we push back on it. I hope you can see that I'm trying to give you real data that is being withheld from the conversation intentionally.

dermdoc said:

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All I know after living for 70 years and being a doc for 44 years I firmly believe most gays are born and hard wired that way. Some people get confused in their turbulent teens and may even "act out" somewhat.
So I believe they were created that way. In God's image.
I am not a Calvinist so I do not believe God created them only to be pre ordained to ECT hell.
We are commanded to love our neighbors. As the parable of the Good Samaritan clearly shows, we are to love everybody. As God does.

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You can see what I wrote to Pablo for details, but this is verifiably untrue.

The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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All I know after living for 70 years and being a doc for 44 years I firmly believe most gays are born and hard wired that way. Some people get confused in their turbulent teens and may even "act out" somewhat.
So I believe they were created that way. In God's image.
I am not a Calvinist so I do not believe God created them only to be pre ordained to ECT hell.
We are commanded to love our neighbors. As the parable of the Good Samaritan clearly shows, we are to love everybody. As God does.

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You can see what I wrote to Pablo for details, but this is verifiably untrue.

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Really? Can you give me a link to medical stuff? Thanks.

And from reviewing the literature again no there is no "gay gene". Sexuality is very complex. I have a very good friend who has two sons. One is gay and one is straight and married. Raised in the Christian environment. I am sure both wanted to please their parents and God. Why would one choose to be gay? Makes zero sense.

The Banned said:

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If you go to my link in response to Pablo, you will find the article, which will then link the research articles. And it's worth noting that this is PBS, not a conservative or Christian outlet. It is well known that this is almost completely caused by life experiences, upbringing, traumas, etc.

Here is also a youtube video interviewing a fomerly open homosexual that has left the lifestyle and helps others leave. It's not "conversion therapy". It's just therapy (explination starting around the 17 minute mark). Helping people understand why they feel the way they feel. The goal isn't to "stop being gay". What people choose to do after acknowledging these experiences/feelings is up to them, but it is important that these feelings are not hardwired and not necessary to incorporate into your identity. Incorporating them into identity actually inhibits you from dealing with the underlying issues. Genetic vs environmental factors are discuss immediately after (around 22 minute mark).

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Thanks. Here is another article from Science that is pretty good.
I just can't figure out why somebody would choose to be gay. Especially in the past. Like Muslim gays. When they know that is a death sentence.
And why would kids raised in the exact same environment by the same parents supposedly choose to be gay? While the other kids are straight? Are there some that are maybe "acting out" or whatever? I guess.
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aat7693
I think it is my place to love, the Holy Spirit to convict, and Jesus to judge. I trust Him.

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And why would kids raised in the exact same environment by the same parents supposedly choose to be gay? While the other kids are straight? Are there some that are maybe "acting out" or whatever? I guess.

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Because we're not machines created off some assembly line. The same inputs will not necessarily correlate to the same outputs. Being raised in the same environment will tend to create the same choices in life (son choosing the same career path as his father, struggling with the same sins, same political parties), but not always.

Some people are more strong or weak willed than others, more/less emotional, deal with anxiety differently. Given the same "prompts" and a person will end up more chubby than their sibling, more prone to alcoholism than their sibling, academics, career ambition, and a host of other things that make us all different. Despite being raised in the "exact same environment."

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Quote:

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And why would kids raised in the exact same environment by the same parents supposedly choose to be gay? While the other kids are straight? Are there some that are maybe "acting out" or whatever? I guess.

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Because we're not machines created off some assembly line. The same inputs will not necessarily correlate to the same outputs. Being raised in the same environment will tend to create the same choices in life (son choosing the same career path as his father, struggling with the same sins, same political parties), but not always.

Some people are more strong or weak willed than others, more/less emotional, deal with anxiety differently. Given the same "prompts" and a person will end up more chubby than their sibling, more prone to alcoholism than their sibling, academics, career ambition, and a host of other things that make us all different. Despite being raised in the "exact same environment."

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I don't know but being gay seems like a huge jump for me. Growing up we knew who the effeminate guys were in elementary school. Why would anybody choose that?

I mean, my grandkids are four and six and female and male respectfully. They already flirt with the opposite sex. And it seems like if one is exposed to the exact same environment as their siblings and respond differently, doesn't that mean they were wired to respond that way?

So you think being gay is a choice? Like alcoholism or the other things you mentioned? I mean, "choosing" to be gay just seems to be different than being prone to addiction.