kurt vonnegut said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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I think the vast majority of people who try to find a relationship with God do so successfully. That being said, I truly empathize with what I've heard Alex O'Connor describe as the "non-resistant non-believer."

The people who honestly try to seek God but still struggle to find belief.

My guess, and this is just from my own experience and perspective, is there is something inside your own Ego that is really holding you back. You are conditioning belief on your own terms instead of His, and I just don't think that's ever going to work.

It seems to be quite consistent across all that we know about belief that quite a bit of face planting humility is in order. I think this can be a very big road block for highly intelligent people in particular.

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In my opinion, the humble position is to understand that a lot of people are sincere and intelligent and yet reach different conclusions than you, and to consider the possibility that you could be wrong. The humble position is not to assume that anyone who does not find your truths must be saddled with self imposed truth roadblocks.

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John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

It is not humility to recognize a non truth as a potential truth. As Christians we believe this verse. Since we do, it would only make sense that people who seek truth would find Jesus since He is the truth.

For example, if you study addition you would come to the truth hat 2 plus 2 is 4. It doesn't matter if you are really smart and do lots of research, if you come to a conclusion that 2 plus 2 is anything but 4, you haven't found the truth.

It isn't arrogance, it is faith and obedience.

Hey...so.. um said:

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John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

It is not humility to recognize a non truth as a potential truth. As Christians we believe this verse. Since we do, it would only make sense that people who seek truth would find Jesus since He is the truth.

For example, if you study addition you would come to the truth hat 2 plus 2 is 4. It doesn't matter if you are really smart and do lots of research, if you come to a conclusion that 2 plus 2 is anything but 4, you haven't found the truth.

It isn't arrogance, it is faith and obedience.

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I don't think the math analogy works well. Faith isn't a mathematical equation. Religious faith is experienced, it's subjective, and it's shaped by culture, interpretation, and personal history.

My experiences, culture, and interpretation don't lead me to the same conclusion as yours. To say my conclusion is wrong and that the conclusions of billions of others are wrong simply because they differ from yours, comes across as arrogant. It dismisses any spiritual experience that isn't your own.

The arrogance here is the unwillingness to even consider the possibility that you deeply held belief might not be the only truth or might even be a non-truth.

Humility says, 'I believe, but I don't know.' Arrogance says, 'I know, and everyone else is wrong.'

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Humility says, 'I believe, but I don't know.' Arrogance says, 'I know, and everyone else is wrong.'

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I disagree. IMO humility is more like "I believe and I know, but there is so much I still don't know"

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Humility says, 'I believe, but I don't know.' Arrogance says, 'I know, and everyone else is wrong.'

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I disagree. IMO humility is more like "I believe and I know, but there is so much I still don't know"

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In this definition of humility, is there acknowledgement that you could be wrong and someone else might be right?

kurt vonnegut said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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I think the vast majority of people who try to find a relationship with God do so successfully. That being said, I truly empathize with what I've heard Alex O'Connor describe as the "non-resistant non-believer."

The people who honestly try to seek God but still struggle to find belief.

My guess, and this is just from my own experience and perspective, is there is something inside your own Ego that is really holding you back. You are conditioning belief on your own terms instead of His, and I just don't think that's ever going to work.

It seems to be quite consistent across all that we know about belief that quite a bit of face planting humility is in order. I think this can be a very big road block for highly intelligent people in particular.

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In my opinion, the humble position is to understand that a lot of people are sincere and intelligent and yet reach different conclusions than you, and to consider the possibility that you could be wrong. The humble position is not to assume that anyone who does not find your truths must be saddled with self imposed truth roadblocks.

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I understand what you are saying, however when you have a relationship with God it's just one way to make sense of those who don't but say they have tried.

Of course I could be wrong. I tried to make it clear I was merely speaking from my own personal perspective. However, of the many the atheist I know personally and have in depth conversations with, Ego seems like a very large part of the issue.

Take the most common objection to belief, the problem of evil. Essentially what is being stated is the individual doesn't understand how evil could exist in the world if there was a God worthy of belief. There appears to be an insistence here that the individual is expected to understand God's ways. I think the culprit here is Ego.

Of course I could be wrong about everything, but its my honest perspective. It's also my personal journey. When I struggled with faith it was MY EGO that was holding me back, and I needed some face planting humility to reopen my relationship with Him.

Maybe you have tried to reach out to God with full humility and recieved nothing in return? But if you insist on understanding before submitting, my hypothesis is you are doing it wrong.

God exists and created all things (especially those who ask for help).
He works all things to His glory.
I see no need for me (or any of His created) to answer any further or to question His actions.

From Silent

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[color=#333333]Maybe you have tried to reach out to God with full humility and received nothing in return? But if you insist on understanding before submitting, my hypothesis is you are doing it wrong.[/color]

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And Catag

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[color=#000000]I see no need for me (or any of His created) to answer any further or to question His actions.[/color]

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Does God wish for us to blindly follow Him? Or does he wish for us to choose to follow Him?

How can I choose to follow God if I do not question or seek understanding? To forego questions or skepticism and to submit without understanding is just blind submission. I'm sure I'm misrepresenting your views here, but it feels like the religious sometimes try to divorce understanding from choice . . . . as though being more well informed about God somehow restricts our ability to choose God.

kurt vonnegut said:

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From Silent

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[color=#333333]Maybe you have tried to reach out to God with full humility and received nothing in return? But if you insist on understanding before submitting, my hypothesis is you are doing it wrong.[/color]

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And Catag

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[color=#000000]I see no need for me (or any of His created) to answer any further or to question His actions.[/color]

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Does God wish for us to blindly follow Him? Or does he wish for us to choose to follow Him?

How can I choose to follow God if I do not question or seek understanding? To forego questions or skepticism and to submit without understanding is just blind submission. I'm sure I'm misrepresenting your views here, but it feels like the religious sometimes try to divorce understanding from choice . . . . as though being more well informed about God somehow restricts our ability to choose God.

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The history of Christianity is chalk full of men who battle with understanding who God is. As I said in another post, there are a plethora of early Christian writings where men tried to answer questions that many, like you, have today. The answers most Christians give you today come for thousands of years of work of incredibly intelligent people. I would suggest that, rather than you being asked to just submit blindly, you consider that the answers being given to you have an absolute truck load of philosophical thought, debate and questioning behind them.

I think you are used to dealing with the modern version of American Christianity, which is what leaves you feeling like it's blind obedience rather than something you can work your way through. I would say blind obedience is a blessing, and sometimes I wish I had it. But if your brain craves to understand, there are some fairly satisfactory answers for all of your issues. I won't say it WILL convert you, but I think you'll find it much more enriching than the version of God you seem to be debating on here

kurt vonnegut said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Humility says, 'I believe, but I don't know.' Arrogance says, 'I know, and everyone else is wrong.'

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I disagree. IMO humility is more like "I believe and I know, but there is so much I still don't know"

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In this definition of humility, is there acknowledgement that you could be wrong and someone else might be right?

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Not really. I don't buy the postmodern idea that there is no truth or knowledge. I'm also not a materialist that believes that all truth and knowledge must be provable. I have belief, knowledge and truth, but I will easily admit they are all woefully incomplete.

So if we disagree I'm open to several possibilities. Maybe you're wrong. Maybe you're more right than me and my knowledge is incomplete. Maybe we're both right in a touching different parts of the elephant sort of way. Maybe both of us are right in such an incomplete way that the discussion is futile anyway, like studying different parts of the elephant with electron microscopes

92Ag95 said:

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So what's the official explanation for a benevolent God "allowing" little girls at a Christian Summer camp to get washed away? It would seem that #4 is very much in play.

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You pose an interesting question, here but let me pose one back.

People die every day. Google tells me the daily average is rough 150,000-175,000.

Yet these 25-30 girls impacted us more. Why?

I mean, you are kind of proving my point. You are insisting on a level of understanding that continues to evade you. You certainly invest a considerable amount of your time on this subject.

I think bringing up Scientology is a total straw man. Over half the world believes in the Abrahamic God. This God that allegedly first revealed itself to a backward people who have only been subjugated by others for basically their entire existence has somehow spread to every corner of the globe. Working on the assumption that God is personal and desires a relationship with all his creation, He is quite likely either the Abrahamic God or he is extremely inaccessible.

Again, let me repeat, I'm specifically referring to people who desire a relationship with God but having difficulty finding one. For those people, I would say the first step is humbly approaching Him with prayer and an open heart, and once something is kindled, further prayer and guidance will guide you to the specifics of which derivative of a perception that God best fits with your conceptions.

Judging from the amount of thoughtfulness you put into this topic, I'm sure you have exposed yourself to a variety of theocies over the years. You are at least aware of the rational frameworks that others like Augustine, Liebnitz, Lewis and others have put forth. This isn't the world of blind acceptance. It's a world of humbly accepting ones own limitations.

"Like a child".

Or like Abram did.

Silent For Too Long said:

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I mean, you are kind of proving my point. You are insisting on a level of understanding that continues to evade you. You certainly invest a considerable amount of your time on this subject.

I think bringing up Scientology is a total straw man. Over half the world believes in the Abrahamic God. This God that allegedly first revealed itself to a backward people who have only been subjugated by others for basically their entire existence has somehow spread to every corner of the globe. Working on the assumption that God is personal and desires a relationship with all his creation, He is quite likely either the Abrahamic God or he is extremely inaccessible.

Again, let me repeat, I'm specifically referring to people who desire a relationship with God but having difficulty finding one. For those people, I would say the first step is humbly approaching Him with prayer and an open heart, and once something is kindled, further prayer and guidance will guide you to the specifics of which derivative of a perception that God best fits with your conceptions.

Judging from the amount of thoughtfulness you put into this topic, I'm sure you have exposed yourself to a variety of theocies over the years. You are at least aware of the rational frameworks that others like Augustine, Liebnitz, Lewis and others have put forth. This isn't the world of blind acceptance. It's a world of humbly accepting ones own limitations.

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Half the world believes in some form of the Abrahamic God. And if some version of it is true, then there is literally nothing more important in all of existence for me to be curious about. If I take you, your religion, and your experiences seriously, then I have to invest this time in considering it, right?

Regarding the bold. Whether you choose to believe me or not, I feel that this very much describes 18 year old me. I was raised Catholic and spent most of life a believer in the sense that children are believers when they've been raised to be so. 18-19 year old me made a sincere effort and struggled to find that relationship or to find truth the ways others say they have. It terrified me and it took many years before I could admit to myself that I didn't believe anymore. And years more before I used the 'A' word to describe myself.

The reaction I get from religious persons varies. Some percentage of religious persons will say that I did not try hard enough. Or that I did not humble myself appropriately. Or that I did not open myself enough. Or that I searched for the wrong kind of experience or evidence or guidance. This is what I think is dismissive. And I think its no less dismissive then me telling a religious person that the spiritual experience they had was brain manifested hallucination. What am I to do with someone who tells me that my subjective experience is wrong?

Our brains are malleable. We can be convinced of non-truths and more to the point, we can convince our selves that non-truths are true. Moreso when we are children, but even as adults. If I were inclined to do so, I could spend the next 30 years living the truths of Buddhism. I could could fully devote myself to its truths, surround myself with the appropriate community, family, teachings, and experiences. And in 30 years, I could explain to you, with confidence, how I know this religion offers truth. And I could give you examples of personal and spiritual experiences.

If I truly wish to be convinced of the truth of Buddhism, then I will find that truth. If I truly wish to be convinced of the truth of Islam, I will find that truth. If I truly wish to be convinced of the truth of Christianity, I will find that truth.

If we are to adopt the strategy that we must fully submit to an idea in order to understand its truth, then we will find the truths of whatever worldview we fully submit to. And what protections am I left with to keep me from false beliefs? I don't mean this as a rhetorical question. As far as I can tell, this is what Christianity asks me to do. To fully submit and humble my feelings, thoughts, critical thinking, and experiences toward a presupposed truth. And then to accept that any shortcomings regarding my reaching those presupposed truths are because I didn't try hard enough.

We find what we seek and then convince ourselves that because we found it, it must be true. And that everyone else who sought and found something different, must be wrong. This is the arrogance of religion, from my point of view. There is this double standard by which 'my' seeking and finding represents truth and 'your' seeking and finding is false.

The irony is obvious to me when I am told to be more open minded by someone who is closed to any possibility of being wrong themselves. Those who are not willing to explore the possibility they are wrong are not interested in truth. They are interested in being right.

You are relying on specificity for much of your argument that I am not even remotely suggesting.

If a personal God desires relationship with His creation he will make Himself available.

That's it. That's the only premise you need to test. I think we can ascertain with nearly universal testimony that a little humility goes a long way in this endeavor.

You also seem to keep attacking a straw men that I never said. I'm certainly not saying blind cult like acceptance. I'm merely stating you should be humble and honest with your own limitations.

What I'm suggesting cost you almost nothing except a little bit of time and an honest appraisal of your own limitations, two things you seem to be willing to invest. At worst you are investing into a psychological placebo that will likely make you a better person, at best the rewards are literally infinite.

In a theoretical future world where you became a believer again, what do you think would have changed?

Silent For Too Long said:

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You are relying on specificity for much of your argument that I am not even remotely suggesting.

If a personal God desires relationship with His creation he will make Himself available.

That's it. That's the only premise you need to test. I think we can ascertain with nearly universal testimony that a little humility goes a long way in this endeavor.

You also seem to keep attacking a straw men that I never said. I'm certainly not saying blind cult like acceptance. I'm merely stating you should be humble and honest with your own limitations.

What I'm suggesting cost you almost nothing except a little bit of time and an honest appraisal of your own limitations, two things you seem to be willing to invest. At worst you are investing into a psychological placebo that will likely make you a better person, at best the rewards are literally infinite.

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Totally fair, much of my post went into the realm of general commentary rather than a rebuttal to anything specific you said.

I think that at least some of what I typed is relevant to what I had bolded from your post. And I think the question remains - If someone were to convince you that they had approached Christianity and a relationship with God in an open, sincere, humble, etc. manner but had not been convinced at the truth of Christianity, how would you accept their conclusions?

I would continue to love them unconditionally and encourage them to keep an open heart.

Silent For Too Long said:

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In a theoretical future world where you became a believer again, what do you think would have changed?

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If, in this theoretical future, there exists new evidence or events of divine intervention, then that would be a path. But, I think your question assumes this is not the case.

I do value personal experience. Not always as an indicator of objective truths, but personal truths are still important to me. If I am to become a believer again, I think it would require something like a profound personal experience.

The absolute first thing to admit in all my questioning is human imperfection....the fact that it is most likely that I simply do not understand and cannot understand what is higher than me and what ultimate purpose there is....but I often find myself wondering things like...

All the people who perished in the flooding and, as AgLiving06 points out, the thousands of other people....but mainly in my mind the young children who die every day......where is their Jeremiah 29:11?

" "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

As an engineer I operate mainly on logic which is probably woefully inadequate when it comes to divinity....but I do not like the path that logic leads me down......that religion and God are human constructs. I do not want to believe this and so my only recourse is to convince myself that these things are beyond logic and human reasoning ability.

92Ag95 said:

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The absolute first thing to admit in all my questioning is human imperfection....the fact that it is most likely that I simply do not understand and cannot understand what is higher than me and what ultimate purpose there is....but I often find myself wondering things like...

All the people who perished in the flooding and, as AgLiving06 points out, the thousands of other people....but mainly in my mind the young children who die every day......where is their Jeremiah 29:11?

" "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

As an engineer I operate mainly on logic which is probably woefully inadequate when it comes to divinity....but I do not like the path that logic leads me down......that religion and God are human constructs. I do not want to believe this and so my only recourse is to convince myself that these things are beyond logic and human reasoning ability.

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We have to be careful when we try to read ourselves into the Scriptures. God makes this promise to the Jews in exile. Trying to say that translates to prosper (or peace) for us isn't something we necessarily want to do.

But even if we do, what do we think for these girls? We most certainly have hope for them. we most certainly believe they have a wonderful future. Why? Because we believe in a loving God, and we believe these girls are with Him now.

Does that mean it doesn't hurt for us? It absolutely hurts a lot. But we don't aspire to a good life now, but hope towards a better life waiting for us free of sin and death.

So we mourn for the lost, but find joy (when the pain subsides) in knowing they are happy and waiting for us.

92Ag95 said:

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The absolute first thing to admit in all my questioning is human imperfection....the fact that it is most likely that I simply do not understand and cannot understand what is higher than me and what ultimate purpose there is....but I often find myself wondering things like...

All the people who perished in the flooding and, as AgLiving06 points out, the thousands of other people....but mainly in my mind the young children who die every day......where is their Jeremiah 29:11?

" "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

As an engineer I operate mainly on logic which is probably woefully inadequate when it comes to divinity....but I do not like the path that logic leads me down......that religion and God are human constructs. I do not want to believe this and so my only recourse is to convince myself that these things are beyond logic and human reasoning ability.

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What do the verses before that say (29:1-10)? He says have children and build homes in exile instead of waiting to return. Live your life faithfully to God in your circumstances, and Israel will be gathered up in God's time. Probably helpful to have the correct construct for the verse before you execute the logic, because the verse becomes very different if you think of a people or family instead of a single generation.

AGC said:

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92Ag95 said:

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The absolute first thing to admit in all my questioning is human imperfection....the fact that it is most likely that I simply do not understand and cannot understand what is higher than me and what ultimate purpose there is....but I often find myself wondering things like...

All the people who perished in the flooding and, as AgLiving06 points out, the thousands of other people....but mainly in my mind the young children who die every day......where is their Jeremiah 29:11?

" "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

As an engineer I operate mainly on logic which is probably woefully inadequate when it comes to divinity....but I do not like the path that logic leads me down......that religion and God are human constructs. I do not want to believe this and so my only recourse is to convince myself that these things are beyond logic and human reasoning ability.

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What do the verses before that say (29:1-10)? He says have children and build homes in exile instead of waiting to return. Live your life faithfully to God in your circumstances, and Israel will be gathered up in God's time. Probably helpful to have the correct construct for the verse before you execute the logic, because the verse becomes very different if you think of a people or family instead of a single generation.

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Thanks. I do tend to zero in sometimes without considering the bigger picture/meaning.