Severian the Torturer said:

---

Silent For Too Long said:

---

Bob Lee said:

---

Sapper Redux said:

---

Bob Lee said:

---

Can you show me the scientific study that proves we're separate and distinct from our bodies? I don't need to know anything about the studies. I know they're wrong because they begin by granting themselves a wrong premise rooted in an ancient heresy. They need to prove what people know about our nature as humans is wrong. Otherwise there's no malady. What are you curing or treating or whatever?

---

So because empirical science isn't validating your metaphysical beliefs they must be wrong. Stunning logic.

---

None of it disproves an existing axiom. You have no evidence of any kind for your assertion that trans women ARE women is an ontological reality. All of it is ideological pseudoscience.

This is not a logical process:

Scientific publication publishes a survey that essentially asks if people have come to the realization that they ruined their lives yet? And then when most people say they don't regret their micro *****, inability to procreate, gaping wound where your reproductive organs used to be, etc, you think it's compelling evidence the law should permit it.

This is like asking women if she regrets her abortion. If she answers that she does, she's acknowledging she did something monstrous.

---

Exactly. We should use questionnaires to study the efficacy of meth.

"Do you feel your life is better on meth?"

"Uh, yes."

Empirical Science wins again!

---

This meme works in so many ways in context

---

I mean, this one is relevant too...

Going on year 25 with my son that is biologically female. We didn't use puberty blockers because by the time we came to this understanding it didn't matter. Rolin is a super talented independent artist having worked on games, graphic novels, and fantasy art. No masks here, you can google him and his art.

People with gender dysphoria exist. We are learning more and that is a good thing because science can aid us through a lot of mistakes like believing it is something you can grow out of- kind of like same sex attraction.

If anyone following along has been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, I pray you find a good "family" to lean on while on this journey.

Rocag said:

---

Bob Lee said:

---

Can you show me the scientific study that proves we're separate and distinct from our bodies? I don't need to know anything about the studies. I know they're wrong because they begin by granting themselves a wrong premise rooted in an ancient heresy. They need to prove what people know about our nature as humans is wrong. Otherwise there's no malady. What are you curing or treating or whatever?

---

I see no purpose in attempting to "prove" a point I'm absolutely not making. And I think you asking me to do so shows that you fundamentally don't understand what trans people are saying when they talk about how they view themselves.

I think conservatives want to frame this as a black and white issue, but we absolutely know it's much more complex than that. Biology and life are full of shades of gray, even when it comes to gender. There are animals out there that change gender based on their environmental conditions. Humans aren't all XX-female or XY-male, we know there is variation to be found. In the early stages of fetal development, human bodies start as physically undifferentiated. But the right hormones applied at the right time produce either male or female reproductive organs. But that doesn't always go to plan.

So I don't jump to the conclusion that whether a person is trans or not is separate from their physical being, just that there is more to a person than what their genitals look like.

---

There are essential characteristics of other animals that aren't characteristics of humans. So what? We're not talking about non human animals. We're talking about humans. Our nature is all that matters here, and we're not talking about humans born with a genetic defect. We're only talking about men born with XY chromosomes and male reproductive organs who believe they can BE women and vice versa. That's the claim of the transgender ideology. You're throwing out red herrings to distract from the topic.

In truth, it's black and white. Man qua man precludes woman qua woman. It's not in a woman's nature to be a man. It's impossible.

Yeah, there's a difference between "intersex" (anatomical or genetic disorders making a person's sex ambiguous), and "transgender" (which is mental).

Rocag said:

---

Silent For Too Long said:

---

Now do the studies that show hormones blockers reduce cognitive functions.

Now do the studies where it shows hormones blockers reduce bone density.

Now do the studies that show hormones blockers lower reproductive capacity.

Tell the whole story.

---

I mean, yeah? There are side effects with any medication. Listen to any commercial for any drug and you'll hear a long list of "This medication may cause..." in the disclaimer. The risks are known and discussed by the doctor when the drugs are prescribed. On the flip side, there are also consequences for not taking the medicines that the person may regret later. Why not take that into consideration as well?

---

That's just it, bud. They aren't being discussed. In fact, they are actively being suppressed. Your boy Sapper just claimed the negative side effects don't exist, and he's "read every study." You would agree that's unethical to coax a child into doing something while suppressing the life altering side effects, yes?

You using the words "Straw man" while simultaneously straw manning my stance is a level of irony that is so rich it must be fattening.

Again, I know for a fact that the negative effects aren't being discussed, or at least diminished, because i know people who have been through the process.

And then there's you, who claim to be an expert on the subject but somehow is blissfully ignorant of all the studies raising massive red flags.

You said this:

Quote:

---

There aren't rigorous peer-reviewed studies that contradict the current treatment model. The claims and papers people like you trot out have an insane number of problems with methodology, selection, and conclusions. The best any rigorous scientific study can say in opposition is that more research is needed.

---

Which is exactly the opposite of reality. The primary studies used to justify this insanity are pseudo scientific placebo level bull *****

What is especially rich is your accompanying hubris and condescension as you proceed to reveal your profound ignorance.

Using these drugs on minors is currently being banned in many countries, and will eventually be universally banned as the veil continues to be lifted. When this happens I'm sure you will have the humility to admit you were wrong.

Aggrad08 said:

---

I'll never cease to be amazed at the amount of attention this issue gets. It should've a relatively rare discussion about a rare and peculiar set of medical/mental health conditions and proposed treatments. Yet we gladly let ourselves be purposefully distracted by this while politicians from both sides rejoice for the distraction.

---

Unfortunately, if the right has learned one thing, it's that there are no more hills that can be ceded to progressivism. We've done that with gay marriage, immigration, 2nd amendment, virtually every hot button "culture war" issue since the Vietnam war; with terrible results.

Everything regardless of scope or importance has to be battled. We tried the "low taxes" and "individual liberty" thing for a while, it didn't take.

Aggrad08 said:

---

I'll never cease to be amazed at the amount of attention this issue gets. It should've a relatively rare discussion about a rare and peculiar set of medical/mental health conditions and proposed treatments. Yet we gladly let ourselves be purposefully distracted by this while politicians from both sides rejoice for the distraction.

---

I'm not so sure. This is a fundamental debate about reality: does the material impact or interact with the immaterial? How much is 'real'? It seems obscured but this is a worldview argument with schools and the federal government foisting it upon the public without consent.

Rocag said:

---

Are you asking for scientific evidence that gender dysphoria exists in the first place? I'd think that is self evident. It's been documented in millions of cases and we can even point to plenty of examples of it being observed in the distant past and across cultures as well. In short, there is substantial evidence that a small but notable percentage of people feel some discrepancy between how they view themselves and the physical reality of their own bodies. That we don't know the underlying causes of this condition is not an indication it doesn't exist in the first place.

Where we differ is that I'm not assigning some moral value to one outlook over the other. A person with gender dysphoria isn't necessarily "wrong", just different. In that respect, yes their outlook is "distorted" from what we consider the typical one to be. So the question is what do we do in these cases? Should someone who would otherwise spend the rest of their life depressed about their situation when they could have achieved happiness through some type of treatment just have to grin and bear it because you find the whole thing uncomfortable?

It's not your life. Let people choose for themselves. It does literally no harm to you. Why do you get to decide and not the person themselves and their parents and their doctors?

---

Dysphoria is a descriptor of the general unease and depression. But that's not evidence that the claim of transgenderism is true. What I'm talking about is transgenderism, which does make moral claims about how society should interact. It affects all of us that way. What you're talking about is depression. Now I'm hearing you say that it doesn't actually matter if their claim is true. But we don't treat other kinds of depression this way although we're starting to see it in Canada and other countries where euthanasia is now legal as a means to end people's suffering. And the true example people use to compare is the guy who perceives he shouldn't have an arm where one exists. Should we cut his arm off then? Should people be able to sell their body parts? What's your limiting principle here?

This is where moral indifference leads, and what happens when all of epistemology is reduced to a physical science. We can't really know anything so everything should be permitted.

The pro-trans people seem to lack a healthy dose of common sense.
If someone has anorexia, we don't agree with them that they're too fat. We try to get them the mental health help they need.
If someone has Body Integrity Dysphoria, we don't encourage them to cut off one of their limbs.

And if someone is born a male, we don't encourage them to mutilate their bodies if they think they should really be a woman. We try to get them the mental health help they need.

This isn't that complicated.

RAB91 said:

---

The pro-trans people seem to lack a healthy dose of common sense.
If someone has anorexia, we don't agree with them that they're too fat. We try to get them the mental health help they need.
If someone has Body Integrity Dysphoria, we don't encourage them to cut off one of their limbs.

And if someone is born a male, we don't encourage them to mutilate their bodies if they think they should really be a woman. We try to get them the mental health help they need.

This isn't that complicated.

---

I don't think its a matter of common sense. If we want to talk about common sense, then we can discuss which of us believes in magic and demons though.

I for one, do not understand gender dysphoria. I don't experience it. I don't know what it feels like or what sorts of anxiety it creates. I don't know what the best 'solution' is for people in this situation to help them to be happy, healthy, and productive. What I think I do know is that when someone demands that they know the script for someone else's happiness and health, their interest is no longer about what is best for that other person - its about their own ego and need to be recognized as correct. For me, I'm happy to listen to people experiencing this, to hear what they have to say, and support them in self autonomy and with their own self governance. In my (anecdotal) experience, there are at least some people that transition and go on to live more happy and peaceful lives.

That doesn't mean we force babies to transition. . . . or any of the other things that Fox News would have you brainwashed into thinking is common place. There is plenty of room for discussions around this issue, but if you start from a place of 'I know whats better for you than you do', then 'discussion' from your side is just lecturing and preaching.

The anti-trans people seem to lack a healthy dose of STFU and listen to someone else's perspective instead of judging them for their failure to the comply with the objective rules to which you apparently possess infallible God-like knowledge of. . . .

This goes back to what is meant by treating your neighbors as you would want to be treated. Recycling an older analogy - I think 70 degrees is cold. You think its hot. I want a blanket, you want a beer. If you demand that I take a beer because you think 70 is objectively hot and you discard my experience, then are you treating me as I wish to be treated?

kurt vonnegut said:

---

RAB91 said:

---

The pro-trans people seem to lack a healthy dose of common sense.
If someone has anorexia, we don't agree with them that they're too fat. We try to get them the mental health help they need.
If someone has Body Integrity Dysphoria, we don't encourage them to cut off one of their limbs.

And if someone is born a male, we don't encourage them to mutilate their bodies if they think they should really be a woman. We try to get them the mental health help they need.

This isn't that complicated.

---

I don't think its a matter of common sense. If we want to talk about common sense, then we can discuss which of us believes in magic and demons though.

I for one, do not understand gender dysphoria. I don't experience it. I don't know what it feels like or what sorts of anxiety it creates. I don't know what the best 'solution' is for people in this situation to help them to be happy, healthy, and productive. What I think I do know is that when someone demands that they know the script for someone else's happiness and health, their interest is no longer about what is best for that other person - its about their own ego and need to be recognized as correct. For me, I'm happy to listen to people experiencing this, to hear what they have to say, and support them in self autonomy and with their own self governance. In my (anecdotal) experience, there are at least some people that transition and go on to live more happy and peaceful lives.

That doesn't mean we force babies to transition. . . . or any of the other things that Fox News would have you brainwashed into thinking is common place. There is plenty of room for discussions around this issue, but if you start from a place of 'I know whats better for you than you do', then 'discussion' from your side is just lecturing and preaching.

The anti-trans people seem to lack a healthy dose of STFU and listen to someone else's perspective instead of judging them for their failure to the comply with the objective rules to which you apparently possess infallible God-like knowledge of. . . .

This goes back to what is meant by treating your neighbors as you would want to be treated. Recycling an older analogy - I think 70 degrees is cold. You think its hot. I want a blanket, you want a beer. If you demand that I take a beer because you think 70 is objectively hot and you discard my experience, then are you treating me as I wish to be treated?

---

This is not an empirical, evidence based approach grounded in reality.

You can't be anything other than what you are; the mind doesn't exist without the body. A 'man' in a woman's body can't ever know what it is to be a man and experience that 'alignment" (men don't take part of their arm to form a *****). It's experientially impossible (much like, once again, no one knows what it's like to be a bat).

'Magic and demons' would be affirming the contrary: that physical reality is meaningless and what's only in your head matters more. Sympathy and kindness is helping someone be comfortable in their body, not denying it and destroying healthy tissue and normal development. Humility here is indifference; there is no desire for the ultimate good of the patient, just a desire to let them do whatever feels good in a moment, even if the long term results are detrimental.

Temperature is a poor analogy. No one's taking drugs or being told that 70 is the same as freezing.

Oh brother, Kurt.

It turns out some people have researched this topic extensively and aren't getting their talking points from Fox News or MSNBC or anything in between. I have zero problem with adult Trans people living any life they want to live.

That has nothing to do with the topic of whether or not experimenting on confused children is evil. Because it is.

Take some time to research the godfather of this movement, John Money. If you come away with any other conclusion then "this person was by definition, evil" then you have a thoroughly broken moral compass.

Take the time to listen to the testimony of the whistleblowers.

Go read the New York Times and Washington Posts articles released last year detailing the undo pressure the Trans lobby was able to put on institions to squash dissent.

We act as if the voices of those who have been preyed upon by gender transition healthcare workers or who have regretted their transition are invalid. The fact that european countries are pulling back tremendously or even closing gender clinics should be critically relevante. Particularly as they have witnessed the terribly trgic results of these hormones and surgeries far longer than we have. Any number of people who regret or who have come out against this stuff should be a screaming red flag against doing this to children, but for idealogues they're a speed bump at best. There is a video of a lady giving an interview about all of this saying that the parents of these children will be the very last ones to ever concede that they were wrong, they will continu to be the loudest voices of the movement, because they will never be able to live with the fact that they were complicit in mutilating their Children and destroying their lives.