Holy Mary, our Heavenly intercessor

4,951 Views | 52 Replies | Last: 12 min ago by Thaddeus73
TAM85
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Is the wedding at Cana an intersession by Mary to Jesus?
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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AG
I would say yes.
File5
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I really like the example of the wedding at Cana for this because Jesus says it's not his time yet but does what she asks anyway out of obedience and respect for his mother.
10andBOUNCE
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Christ fulfilled the fullness of the law, and the wedding is a great picture of the 5th commandment.

To then turn that into intercession that can even be applied to us through his mother is quite the leap.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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10andBOUNCE said:

Christ fulfilled the fullness of the law, and the wedding is a great picture of the 5th commandment.

To then turn that into intercession that can even be applied to us through his mother is quite the leap.


To deny what it obviously is by the plain meaning of the text is equally an apologetic leap intended to avoid what's staring you in the face.

It's obviously about a need for a key element of the wedding feast and how at his mother's prompting he miraculously turns the lack of wine into an intoxication of grace.

Mary simply informs Jesus of the dilemma "They have no wine" and that is her intercession. She entrusts even that small embarrassment to Him. It is worth noting the simplicity of her prayer: she does not dictate a solution, she does not demand a timeline. She simply presents the need and trusts that he will respond to her.

After what some mistakenly characterize as a rebuff, she goes with perfect trust to the servants and tells them, "Do whatever he tells you." These are, remarkably, her last recorded words in the Gospels. Everything she needed to say about faith, about surrender, about how to approach her Son is contained in that one command.

Re: the supposed rebuff, the "mother of Jesus" appears only twice in the Gospel of John: in this passage and at the foot of the Cross (John 19:25-27). John deliberately connects the two scenes. In both, Mary uniquely fulfills the role of mother.

The title "Woman" echoes Genesis as it is the same word used for Eve. This is John painting Mary as the New Eve, alluding to a new creation in which Christ is the New Adam and Mary is the New Eve. By calling her "Woman," Jesus is not pushing Mary away. He is crowning her with a cosmic identity.

To understand Mary's intercessory role at Cana more deeply, it helps to look at the Old Testament. In ancient Israel, the Gebirah, the Queen Mother, held a unique intercessory role before the king. In 1 Kings 2:19-20, when Bathsheba approaches King Solomon, he rises, bows, and seats her at his right hand. When she makes a request, Solomon says he will not refuse her.

This is precisely the pattern at Cana. The Wedding at Cana reveals Mary's unique intercessory role as the New Eve and Queen Mother. The Queen Mother doesn't have power in herself. Her power comes entirely from her relationship to the King. She brings petitions to the King. Mary's intercession is always under, through and toward Christ, never apart from Him.

In the same way she models perfect discipleship with her fiat to the Angel Gabriel, Mary at Cana gives us the perfect model of intercessory prayer: recognize the need, bring it to Christ, trust completely, and point others to Him. She adds nothing to Christ's power. She diminishes nothing of His glory.

So, yes, Jesus is honoring his mother exactly as we would all expect him to do, but it is dismissive to say that is all that is happening here. He is honoring his mother by addressing in a miraculous manner some earthly needs that she brings to his attention, and in doing so, he is initiating his public ministry.

Going deeper into the question of whether this is merely a good Jewish son following the 5th Commandment, what is the Wedding at Cana? Weddings are a consistent biblical symbol for the mystical union between God and his people. Throughout scripture we see that God wants to "marry" his people, Israel, because he loves them. God wants to fill them with his own life "consummating the marriage" in a manner of speaking. So what is the fulfillment of this prophetic desire? Quite simply it is the Incarnation, when a divine nature and a human nature came together in the unity of a divine person to form a marriage between God and Israel. Jesus is the wedding of heaven and Earth, the marriage of divinity and humanity. He is the bridegroom and the Church is the bride in him.

The most intimate union is achieved between God and the world. And at the wedding at Cana, at the prompting of his human mother, Jesus publicly "outs" himself and miraculously changes 180 gallons of water into the wine of the divine life, an intoxication of grace. When we are infused with the divine life and married to God, that life never runs out.

The reason the wedding at Cana is here in scripture is not merely to show us that Jesus was an obedient Jewish son. It is showing us how God's longing for the love of his chosen people is now being opened up to everyone by grace and he wants us to drink freely of his wine of divine life. The Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

The six stone water jars were specifically for the Jewish rites of purification. Their number, six, may symbolize the incompleteness or imperfection of the Old Covenant purification system. As Jesus transforms the water used for external purification into wine, He can be seen as changing the Old Covenant purification system and enabling the internal purification of believers.

This is not a rejection of Israel's covenant. It is its fulfillment and superabundance. The prophets like Jeremiah spoke of how God would write a new covenant in the hearts of His people (Jeremiah 31:33). This New Covenant would be greater than what came before, as the wine of Jesus is superior to the previous wine and is made freely available to all the guests at the wedding.
File5
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AG
I don't understand this. It applied to the people at the wedding. She saw their need and interceded for them. If she's alive in heaven (and I believe all saints are) then she can do the same for us there. Jesus saves and has the power, she's just interceding exactly like the wedding here. How is this a stretch of logic?
Howdy, it is me!
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File5 said:

I don't understand this. It applied to the people at the wedding. She saw their need and interceded for them. If she's alive in heaven (and I believe all saints are) then she can do the same for us there. Jesus saves and has the power, she's just interceding exactly like the wedding here. How is this a stretch of logic?


But we don't need her to do that.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Howdy, it is me! said:

File5 said:

I don't understand this. It applied to the people at the wedding. She saw their need and interceded for them. If she's alive in heaven (and I believe all saints are) then she can do the same for us there. Jesus saves and has the power, she's just interceding exactly like the wedding here. How is this a stretch of logic?


But we don't need her to do that.

Do you ask others to pray for you? You don't "need" them either.
File5
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If she had not said anything he would have not done anything based on the plain reading of it. So her intercession was clearly effectual. You are right in that we don't necessarily need to, but it can certainly help just as asking other to pray for us can help.
Frok
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The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is our intercessor
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Frok said:

The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is our intercessor


True. It also teaches that Jesus is our intercessor.

So the Holy Spirit is not our only intercessor.
Frok
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True, Jesus is our mediator and the Holy Spirit intercedes for us.

FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Frok said:

True, Jesus is our mediator and the Holy Spirit intercedes for us.




There's nothing in tbat about exclusivity. Revelation 5:8 and 8:5 clearly show that the prayers of the saints (the holy ones) are presented to God.

"When the Lamb had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Rev 5:8

The Lamb Jesus Christ, the Lion of Judah takes the scroll, and heaven erupts in worship. Golden bowls full of incense. John doesn't leave us guessing what they represent. They are the prayers of the saints.
The twenty-four elders in heaven represent the leaders of the people of God in heaven, and in the New Testament, the term "saints" normally refers to Christians living on earth. This passage depicts the saints in heaven offering to God the "prayers of the saints" on earth i.e., interceding for them.

This is not a minor theological footnote. This is Scripture explicitly showing that the saints in heaven are aware of our prayers and present them before God. John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" and if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

This also connects to another biblical theme: the Bible directly associates the prayers of the faithful on earth with incense. The Psalmist writes, "Let my prayer be counted as incense before thee, and the lifting up of my hands as an evening sacrifice!" (Psalm 141:2).
The image is ancient, priestly, and deliberate. Incense rising = prayer ascending.

In Revelation 8, an angel came and stood at the altar in heaven with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

The prayers of the faithful, gathered and offered before the throne of God, trigger a divine response that shakes the earth. It is the prayers of the saints that are rising like incense before God, and it is in response to those prayers that God sends these peals of thunder and rumblings and flashes of lightning and it all happens in response to prayer.
Frok
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That is not clear to me, you can theorize that but it doesn't line up with the rest of scripture IMO.

Nobody prays to anyone other than God. The incense is the prayers of the saints but I don't see any instruction for other saints to pray to the saints.
Thaddeus73
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I like having a pure and holy intercessor praying for me 24/7 to her Son Jesus....It has certainly brought about many good answers to my prayers....
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Frok said:

That is not clear to me, you can theorize that but it doesn't line up with the rest of scripture IMO.

Nobody prays to anyone other than God. The incense is the prayers of the saints but I don't see any instruction for other saints to pray to the saints.


It's not theory anymore than your theory that no one prays to anyone other than God. But of course, if it's just each of us and our Bible a la sola scriptura you don't have any principled way to contradict the biblical exegesis I just gave you, other than your subjective opinion. So, you do you.

FTACo88-FDT24dad
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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

Frok said:

That is not clear to me, you can theorize that but it doesn't line up with the rest of scripture IMO.

Nobody prays to anyone other than God. The incense is the prayers of the saints but I don't see any instruction for other saints to pray to the saints.


It's not theory anymore than your theory that no one prays to anyone other than God. But of course, if it's just each of us and our Bible a la sola scriptura you don't have any principled way to contradict the biblical exegesis I just gave you, other than your subjective opinion. So, you do you.

Where are the instructions to use the Bible alone as the rulenof faith? I'll hang up and listen.


Thaddeus73
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Intercessory prayer is very important to Catholics. Most of my very important needs in life I have entrusted to St. Jude, St. Joseph, Mother Mary, St. Alphonsus, St. Blaise, etc.

And most have been answered positively. It's not just that Catholics believe in intercessory prayer by very much alive holy people in heaven, aka the Great Cloud of Witnesses in Hebrews 12, but THAT IT WORKS!
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