If Hickok and Ian McCollum have little faith in the P320 and basically saying I wouldn't carry one, Sig is cooked. Best course of action, recall every firearm and start over. It's only going to get worse. Glock did a recall back in the 90s, Springfield did it on on the XDS back in 2012 or so. Sig needs to man up and offer a recall. You have way to many people saying there is a problem. Especially if ranges are not allowing them. If I had any stock in Sig I would sell now.

Psycho Bunny said:

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If Hickok and Ian McCollum have little faith in the P320 and basically saying I wouldn't carry one, Sig is cooked.

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Was about to say the same thing after watching the Hickok45 video.

Sig is in deep ***** Short of a completely redesigned FCU, no one is going to trust the P320 anymore.

Rapier108 said:

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Psycho Bunny said:

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If Hickok and Ian McCollum have little faith in the P320 and basically saying I wouldn't carry one, Sig is cooked.

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Was about to say the same thing after watching the Hickok45 video.

Sig is in deep ***** Short of a completely redesigned FCU, no one is going to trust the P320 anymore.

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The trust goes even further than the 320. I have read comments from people saying they don't trust even the 365, which is dumb as there are no issues with those, but alas the herd mentality is going to wreck Sig if they can't fix this PDQ and show some mega contrition.

The Sun said:

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Rapier108 said:

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Psycho Bunny said:

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If Hickok and Ian McCollum have little faith in the P320 and basically saying I wouldn't carry one, Sig is cooked.

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Was about to say the same thing after watching the Hickok45 video.

Sig is in deep ***** Short of a completely redesigned FCU, no one is going to trust the P320 anymore.

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The trust goes even further than the 320. I have read comments from people saying they don't trust even the 365, which is dumb as there are no issues with those, but alas the herd mentality is going to wreck Sig if they can't fix this PDQ and show some mega contrition.

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It is worth taking a close look at retired Generals who hold key positions at Sig Sauer. The former NATO Afghanistan commander is employed as a Defense Advisor at Sig Sauer in 2022. The former US Representative to NATO, a retired LTG, was hired as special advisor to the CEO in 2023. They are getting a lot of advice from retired Generals whose protgs are still in uniform and making decisions on acquisition programs.

Going back farther to the Army's requirement definition for a modular design also deserves some scrutiny.

https://www.guns.com/news/2017/09/19/gen-milley-the-xm17-is-altogether-different-than-the-p320#:~:text=The%20Army%20is%20conducting%20an,resulting%20handgun%20that%20Sig%20submitted.

I don't hate Sig pistols. I have a P238, P938, and P365 and they are great pistols.

Love the P226. First pistol I purchased.

Also loved my FNX, but I need to send it in for a trigger issue… Be careful out there.

The only way to improve on a Glock is to wait for the next Gen.

The Sun said:

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Rapier108 said:

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Psycho Bunny said:

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If Hickok and Ian McCollum have little faith in the P320 and basically saying I wouldn't carry one, Sig is cooked.

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Was about to say the same thing after watching the Hickok45 video.

Sig is in deep ***** Short of a completely redesigned FCU, no one is going to trust the P320 anymore.

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The trust goes even further than the 320. I have read comments from people saying they don't trust even the 365, which is dumb as there are no issues with those, but alas the herd mentality is going to wreck Sig if they can't fix this PDQ and show some mega contrition.

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Yeah, people claiming the P365 has the same problem as the P320 are clueless.

Completely different pistols and the 365 has never had any reports of unintentional discharges that could be the result of some kind of design flaw.

If I thought the 365 was even remotely dangerous, I would not carry it, nor even purchased it.

FIDO*98* said:

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The only way to improve on a Glock is to wait for the next Gen.

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https://ruger.com/products/rxm/models.html

Yeah I agree with you, Hickok saying that is sort of a bellwether to me on the scale of this disaster for Sig. He's not trying to burn them of course but I've never heard him 'go there' about the safety of a gun he reviews/owns etc.

I read that Sig has sold over 3.6 million in the US. Regardless of what they 'want' to do I am not sure they even have the capacity to buy all of those back/compensate owners to trade them in (my cowboy math says it would go over a billion dollars if they offered everyone something like $350). And I am not sure what the quantity is the gov't has. The legal costs are going to pile up fast though.

The ECP proposed by beretta and now seen as M9A4 and M9A3 variants fixed most of those complaints. The trigger issue is a double edge. Triggers easier to pull are not always a good thing with untrained people.

James Reeves put this on his personal channel because TFB is sponsored by Glock.

Around 5 minutes he goes thru how loathed the M9 was.

Pretty balanced take/history, imho.

Never liked the P320...it just looked cheap to me. I have a P226 which I love. Had a P229 that I loved. Also had the P239 which I liked but did not like the DA trigger. DA/SA for me now only.

nortex97 said:

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Yeah I agree with you, Hickok saying that is sort of a bellwether to me on the scale of this disaster for Sig. He's not trying to burn them of course but I've never heard him 'go there' about the safety of a gun he reviews/owns etc.

I read that Sig has sold over 3.6 million in the US. Regardless of what they 'want' to do I am not sure they even have the capacity to buy all of those back/compensate owners to trade them in (my cowboy math says it would go over a billion dollars if they offered everyone something like $350). And I am not sure what the quantity is the gov't has. The legal costs are going to pile up fast though.

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I bought one brand new right around COVID. It is still sitting in the box NBF. I will gladly take a full refund or credit toward purchase of a P365.

I blame Ron Cohen. He ruined Kimber when he was CEO and has done his best to ruin Sig as CEO.

What did he do at Kimber?

txyaloo said:

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I blame Ron Cohen. He ruined Kimber when he was CEO and has done his best to ruin Sig as CEO.

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Cohen spent a ton of money generating media goodwill. I was with a company that was invited to participate in their SHOT Show Range Days in 2019-2020. Sig spent about $4M just on the range days without counting their giant exhibit at the Venentian. It had really nice catered buffets for all attendees, choreographed weapon demos with parachutists jumping onto the Range, Sig Academy instructor demos, and the opportunity to shoot just about any rifle or pistol in their catalog. The gun magazines definitely gave them positive press in this period.

https://streamable.com/2k8zjw

https://streamable.com/jlrtcu

ddp

Slicer97 said:

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What did he do at Kimber?

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He left Kimber and became Sig CEO in 2005. At Kimber, he greatly lowered their quality. Cut customer service. Came out with some poor designs, etc. He took Kimber from being a well regarded custom shop 1911 to something people who know about 1911's generally won't purchase. Kimber sells a lot of guns still but they aren't the quality they used to be.

He started down that road at Sig when he took over. Sig seemed to hit a stride in the late 2010s, only for the P320 issues to have popped up years ago and still not been corrected. He was also arrested and convicted of violating firearms export compliance laws in ~2019.

Huh. I'd heard Kimber's quality had gone down, but not why. I inherited 2 full size 1911s, a Custom II and a Custom Shop CDP. Both shoot great and have never had problems with either. Also inherited some Wilson Combat mags, so that may be part of it.

I know this thread is about Sig. Friend of mine was telling me Barret is having issues with the MK22. Supposedly the trigger doesn't fire when pulled, and a potentially dangerous phenomenon where the rifle fires when the bolt is cycled after a perceived misfire. Additionally, there are reports of receivers cracking at the bolts after barrel changes.

ts5641 said:

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I carried a Sig P226 for many years as a cop. Loved that gun! Hate to see this.

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I have a p229, compact version. Been my conceal carry fir the past 10 years.

Yes. And also throw in CZ P10 C.

What issues are there with P10C's? I haven't seen any 'accidental discharge' claims, most people seem to love them. Have been considering is why I ask.

Ulysses90 said:

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txyaloo said:

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I blame Ron Cohen. He ruined Kimber when he was CEO and has done his best to ruin Sig as CEO.

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Cohen spent a ton of money generating media goodwill. I was with a company that was invited to participate in their SHOT Show Range Days in 2019-2020. Sig spent about $4M just on the range days without counting their giant exhibit at the Venentian. It had really nice catered buffets for all attendees, choreographed weapon demos with parachutists jumping onto the Range, Sig Academy instructor demos, and the opportunity to shoot just about any rifle or pistol in their catalog. The gun magazines definitely gave them positive press in this period.

https://streamable.com/2k8zjw

https://streamable.com/jlrtcu

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Money was better spent on R&D

nortex97 said:

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What issues are there with P10C's? I haven't seen any 'accidental discharge' claims, most people seem to love them. Have been considering is why I ask.

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https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=105862.0

A friend gifted me a P320 four years ago. It is a collector's edition with a Texas Ranger stamp on it. I was uneducated about handguns and when the opportunity came to take tactical lessons, I decided to buy a P320 because I would have extra magazines due to the original gun. It seems the only way to unscrew myself now might be to sell the collector's item which was never meant to be fired in the first place and offload the other one at a large discount.

TrumpsBarber said:

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A friend gifted me a P320 four years ago. It is a collector's edition with a Texas Ranger stamp on it. I was uneducated about handguns and when the opportunity came to take tactical lessons, I decided to buy a P320 because I would have extra magazines due to the original gun. It seems the only way to unscrew myself now might be to sell the collector's item which was never meant to be fired in the first place and offload the other one at a large discount.

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I would wait to see what Sig does, might be a recall or something.

RightWingConspirator said:

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Never liked the P320...it just looked cheap to me. I have a P226 which I love. Had a P229 that I loved. Also had the P239 which I liked but did not like the DA trigger. DA/SA for me now only.

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My 239 is DA/SA. It is IMHO the best concealed carry gun ever made. I am carrying it today.

I agree about DA/SA for pistols. I have several striker fired but they are generally speaking for the range. I have a 365 that I have carried some but it's not loaded right now. It's buried in the safe.

Another excellent carry gun is the HK P30sk. I have one and The only reason I carry the 239 over the HK is I like the holster better.

Sucks for Sig. they have made so many good guns for so long. Hope they can get past all of this.

I bet SIg blames DOD on accelerating production without the 22,500 round endurance testing. Of course this dumb comment assumes the 22,500 round testing would have found the issue.

JFABNRGR said:

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I bet SIg blames DOD on accelerating production without the 22,500 round endurance testing. Of course this dumb comment assumes the 22,500 round testing would have found the issue.

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Except the problem with the P320 goes back well before Sig won the M17/M18 contract.

Rapier108 said:

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JFABNRGR said:

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I bet SIg blames DOD on accelerating production without the 22,500 round endurance testing. Of course this dumb comment assumes the 22,500 round testing would have found the issue.

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Except the problem with the P320 goes back well before Sig won the M17/M18 contract.

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Know problems and why not known by DOD procurement? If addressed by Sig than they may be more liable.

If known wouldn't Glock have emphasized the crap out of the issues?

JFABNRGR said:

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Rapier108 said:

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JFABNRGR said:

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I bet SIg blames DOD on accelerating production without the 22,500 round endurance testing. Of course this dumb comment assumes the 22,500 round testing would have found the issue.

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Except the problem with the P320 goes back well before Sig won the M17/M18 contract.

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Know problems and why not known by DOD procurement? If addressed by Sig than they may be more liable.

If known wouldn't Glock have emphasized the crap out of the issues?

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The rumors of problems with the P320 have been around for years, but there was never definitive proof that the gun could fire on its own, and the accidental discharges were explained away as operator error.

Then the airman was killed by a holstered gun just sitting on a table, and people have now been able to replicate the problem and make the gun fire just by touching parts of it.

Sig has denied for years there is a problem with the P320, even after some police departments switched to other brands of pistols.

Yes, DOD should have taken the rumors a lot more seriously when Sig offered the P320 for the M9 replacement, but why they didn't doesn't absolve Sig of their failures with the P320.

As to whether Glock said anything, I don't know.

JFABNRGR said:

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Rapier108 said:

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JFABNRGR said:

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I bet SIg blames DOD on accelerating production without the 22,500 round endurance testing. Of course this dumb comment assumes the 22,500 round testing would have found the issue.

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Except the problem with the P320 goes back well before Sig won the M17/M18 contract.

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Know problems and why not known by DOD procurement? If addressed by Sig than they may be more liable.

If known wouldn't Glock have emphasized the crap out of the issues?

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In the context of the Federal Acquisition Regulations and the Test & Eval Master Plan, anecdotal stories are hard to evaluate. I can visualize how to create a drop fire test at various angles but I don't know how you would construct a spontaneous firing test unless it was a bunch of loaded and cocked pistols on a vibrating table (varying frequency and amplitude) or a in some other repetitive motion harness for ~100 random sampled pistols for ~1000 hours. If the Army had excluded the P320 based on anecdotal information, they would have been sued. It would be interested to see how the candidate pistols were scored for meeting the KPPs and KSAs, i.e. how did the P320 score against the other pistols on the performance spec?

samurai_science said:

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TrumpsBarber said:

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A friend gifted me a P320 four years ago. It is a collector's edition with a Texas Ranger stamp on it. I was uneducated about handguns and when the opportunity came to take tactical lessons, I decided to buy a P320 because I would have extra magazines due to the original gun. It seems the only way to unscrew myself now might be to sell the collector's item which was never meant to be fired in the first place and offload the other one at a large discount.

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I would wait to see what Sig does, might be a recall or something.

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That is good advice. Since the P320 is the only 9mm I own, I think that I will have a safety installed on it. Meanwhile, I will not carry it chambered. Perhaps send the receipt to Sig Sauer.