US factory employment lowest in 5 years

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MemphisAg1
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9:32a, 8/1/25
AG
I like a lot of things Trump is doing except for his crazy trade war and tariffs. Starting to see the impact not just in inflation numbers but also employment.

I try to ignore the political analysts and follow the nerdy data analysts instead who try to be objective. They're saying the full impact of tariff inflation won't hit until Q4/Q1, with a notable slowdown in economic activity resulting from that.

I don't like government-forced solutions, whether it's the Dem approach of forcing vaccines on people or Trump's attempt to tell people where they have to make their Iphone or how to price the medicines they offer to the market.

Meanwhile, he's going to fire Powell for not cutting rates according to his whim. Maybe this is part of some master plan that's more brilliant than my simple mind can absorb... we'll see. I'll give him credit if time proves him right. For now, I hope the courts declare his tariffs null and void and that we fall back to a market-oriented approach to investment and growth instead of this heavy-handed approach.
Quote:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) -U.S. manufacturing contracted for a fifth straight month in July and factory employment dropped to the lowest level in five years amid tariffs that have raised prices of imported raw materials.

Quote:
Economists polled by Reuters had forecast the PMI edging up to 49.5. The weak PMI reading is consistent with economists' expectations for a slowdown in activity in the third quarter as the effects of the import duties become more apparent.

Quote:
Despite the rise in production, factories continued to shed jobs. The survey's measure of manufacturing employment decreased to 43.4, the lowest level since July 2020, from 45.0 in June. The ISM has noted an "acceleration of headcount reductions due to uncertain near- to mid-term demand."

Quote:
Government data on Thursday showed goods prices increased in June by the most in five months, with economists saying this was the start of a tariff-driven rise in goods inflation that they expected to persist through the second half of the year.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/us-manufacturing-extends-slump-factory-140351111.html
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Apollo79
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In reply to MemphisAg1 • 9:39a, 8/1/25
MemphisAg1 said:
I like a lot of things Trump is doing except for his crazy trade war and tariffs. Starting to see the impact not just in inflation numbers but also employment.

I try to ignore the political analysts and follow the nerdy data analysts instead who try to be objective. They're saying the full impact of tariff inflation won't hit until Q4/Q1, with a notable slowdown in economic activity resulting from that.

I don't like government-forced solutions, whether it's the Dem approach of forcing vaccines on people or Trump's attempt to tell people where they have to make their Iphone or how to price the medicines they offer to the market.

Meanwhile, he's going to fire Powell for not cutting rates according to his whim. Maybe this is part of some master plan that's more brilliant than my simple mind can absorb... we'll see. I'll give him credit if time proves him right. For now, I hope the courts declare his tariffs null and void and that we fall back to a market-oriented approach to investment and growth instead of this heavy-handed approach.
Quote:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) -U.S. manufacturing contracted for a fifth straight month in July and factory employment dropped to the lowest level in five years amid tariffs that have raised prices of imported raw materials.

Quote:
Economists polled by Reuters had forecast the PMI edging up to 49.5. The weak PMI reading is consistent with economists' expectations for a slowdown in activity in the third quarter as the effects of the import duties become more apparent.

Quote:
Despite the rise in production, factories continued to shed jobs. The survey's measure of manufacturing employment decreased to 43.4, the lowest level since July 2020, from 45.0 in June. The ISM has noted an "acceleration of headcount reductions due to uncertain near- to mid-term demand."

Quote:
Government data on Thursday showed goods prices increased in June by the most in five months, with economists saying this was the start of a tariff-driven rise in goods inflation that they expected to persist through the second half of the year.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/us-manufacturing-extends-slump-factory-140351111.html

Hes not firing Powell, Powells term is up in a few months.
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infinity ag
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9:39a, 8/1/25
If one willingly allows jobs to leave and wring hands about it, what else will happen?
We have done nothing about that.

jobs jobs jobs.
If there are no jobs, there is no country.
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Rocky Rider
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In reply to Apollo79 • 9:46a, 8/1/25
AG
Powell's term is up May 15, 2026. A week ago Trump said he will be out in 8 months (March '26). I assume the date is May 15.
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jt16
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In reply to infinity ag • 9:47a, 8/1/25
AG
infinity ag said:
If one willingly allows jobs to leave and wring hands about it, what else will happen?
We have done nothing about that.

jobs jobs jobs.
If there are no jobs, there is no country.


Trump is one of the most fiscal liberal presidents we have ever seen. He literally shamed the republicans into throwing one more $1T Covid grift on his way out the door last term. And these tariff rates have gone beyond protecting American jobs. It's one of the most massive tax increases on Americans we have experienced. And people that think they are conservative cheer it on because they love the chaos that comes with Trump.
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AgGrad99
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9:50a, 8/1/25
AG
cause /= effect

The same prognosticators who are saying prices will go up and will be passed onto the consumer, are also blaming job cuts on tariffs.

I'm a manufacturer, I use dozens of suppliers, and I supply hundreds of customers (some are also manufacturers). Costs have adjusted slightly, because of tariffs...and will continue to for a bit...while consumer prices follow. But I've seen very little to no movement with their labor force this year because of that. Most are still lamenting the lack of qualified people.

I'll also say this...we're still wading through the effects of the previous 2-3 year inflation rates. Those things come in slow waves, and we seem to be on the backside of the last wave. But those increases are affecting us much more than these policies that have only began to filter through.

Point being, tariffs have simply become the new cost-center for any negative number/trend in the economy, whether it's the cause or not, so it's extremely difficult to wade through the information.

Want to create jobs? Don't allow Asia countries to manipulate markets for decades, to our detriment. Don't support policies that cause extreme inflation. Don't over-tax and punish those who contribute. Instead of wasting billions upon billions of dollars on the most idiotic ideals around the globe, maybe support American manufacturers? Build up infrastructure, improve efficiencies for necessities around the country, etc. It's not rocket surgery.
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MouthBQ98
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9:57a, 8/1/25
AG
Automation. New machinery, better processes, integrated systems, better materials handling, subcontracting non core functions. Much of it is getting more efficient due to better technologies and processes being available and also due to less qualified labor being available. We are producing plenty. We just need fewer people to do it.
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Ferg
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In reply to jt16 • 10:06a, 8/1/25
jt16 said:
infinity ag said:
If one willingly allows jobs to leave and wring hands about it, what else will happen?
We have done nothing about that.

jobs jobs jobs.
If there are no jobs, there is no country.


Trump is one of the most fiscal liberal presidents we have ever seen. He literally shamed the republicans into throwing one more $1T Covid grift on his way out the door last term. And these tariff rates have gone beyond protecting American jobs. It's one of the most massive tax increases on Americans we have experienced. And people that think they are conservative cheer it on because they love the chaos that comes with Trump.

Its a consumption Tax, which many on this board have said they would prefer to Income Tax. Given the $37T in Debt and the continuing budget deficits, I'm not sure its a bad solution to help close the gap.
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infinity ag
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10:08a, 8/1/25
Lower Prices or More Jobs?

That is the choice in front of us. You cannot have both.

We had low/no tariffs, so we had low prices and low jobs. If we increase tariffs, we will have higher prices and more jobs.

Take your pick. I pick higher prices and more jobs because the impact is more spread out and more Americans will benefit, not just the trust fund/multi million dollar 401k types.
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Nitro Power
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In reply to Ferg • 10:11a, 8/1/25
AG
In lieu of, not in addition to
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Ferg
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In reply to Nitro Power • 10:16a, 8/1/25
Nitro Power said:
In lieu of, not in addition to

In lieu of more income taxes to solve our debt issue.
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AgGrad99
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In reply to infinity ag • 10:17a, 8/1/25
AG
infinity ag said:
Lower Prices or More Jobs?

That is the choice in front of us. You cannot have both.

that's a bit of a strawman argument because it completely ignores economies of scale, unrelated/unrealized cost savings, alternate means of supply, etc...

Lower output typically means higher prices. When the output grows, pricing can come down. You cannot grow the output, without hiring additional labor.

Labor is ONE area you can cut cost. It's not the ONLY.
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infinity ag
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In reply to AgGrad99 • 10:55a, 8/1/25
AgGrad99 said:
infinity ag said:
Lower Prices or More Jobs?

That is the choice in front of us. You cannot have both.

that's a bit of a strawman argument because it completely ignores economies of scale, unrelated/unrealized cost savings, alternate means of supply, etc...

Lower output typically means higher prices. When the output grows, pricing can come down. You cannot grow the output, without hiring additional labor.

Labor is ONE area you can cut cost. It's not the ONLY.


There are several impacts of everything, but I think my simplification is a good generalization of the choices in front of us.

If we apply tariffs, prices will go up no doubt. But there will be more jobs in the country and less money flowing out to other countries. I prefer a situation where everyone who wants to work has jobs but prices are higher than they are now. We are living in an artificially deflated price environment.
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MemphisAg1
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In reply to infinity ag • 11:07a, 8/1/25
AG
infinity ag said:
If we apply tariffs, prices will go up no doubt. But there will be more jobs in the country and less money flowing out to other countries. I prefer a situation where everyone who wants to work has jobs but prices are higher than they are now. We are living in an artificially deflated price environment.

I don't think it's a fact that tariffs will bring more jobs. In the near term it will likely result in less jobs, as people pull back on purchases due to inflation. That reduces economic activity and employment. You're already seeing it in the employment numbers as businesses react to what they expect ahead.

Now whether that translates into a snap back in employment if new manufacturing is on-shored here remains to be seen. It takes time to expand manufacturing capacity in a meaningful way, like 1 to 2 years. And whatever Trump does can be undone by the next president (or courts), so I really question how many companies make long term strategic decisions to invest more in the US simply due to Trump's brow beating of them.

Don't pay much attention to the press releases on new investment in the US. Press releases are a dime a dozen. Pay attention to actual steel going in the ground to expand capacity, above and beyond what would happen with normal growth. That will be the indicator if tariffs are in fact contributing to growth.
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ABATTBQ87
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In reply to Rocky Rider • 11:10a, 8/1/25
AG
Rocky Rider said:
Powell's term is up May 15, 2026. A week ago Trump said he will be out in 8 months (March '26). I assume the date is May 15.

So Powell and Cobert are both gone in May of 2026
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AgGrad99
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In reply to infinity ag • 11:20a, 8/1/25
AG
infinity ag said:
AgGrad99 said:
infinity ag said:
Lower Prices or More Jobs?

That is the choice in front of us. You cannot have both.

that's a bit of a strawman argument because it completely ignores economies of scale, unrelated/unrealized cost savings, alternate means of supply, etc...

Lower output typically means higher prices. When the output grows, pricing can come down. You cannot grow the output, without hiring additional labor.

Labor is ONE area you can cut cost. It's not the ONLY.


There are several impacts of everything, but I think my simplification is a good generalization of the choices in front of us.

If we apply tariffs, prices will go up no doubt. But there will be more jobs in the country and less money flowing out to other countries. I prefer a situation where everyone who wants to work has jobs but prices are higher than they are now. We are living in an artificially deflated price environment.

I understand your point.

I guess from my perspective...being so entrenched in this situation, it's hard to simplify in my mind. But I too want employment to be at max capacity and the country stronger internally.
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infinity ag
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In reply to AgGrad99 • 11:50a, 8/1/25
AgGrad99 said:
infinity ag said:
AgGrad99 said:
infinity ag said:
Lower Prices or More Jobs?

That is the choice in front of us. You cannot have both.

that's a bit of a strawman argument because it completely ignores economies of scale, unrelated/unrealized cost savings, alternate means of supply, etc...

Lower output typically means higher prices. When the output grows, pricing can come down. You cannot grow the output, without hiring additional labor.

Labor is ONE area you can cut cost. It's not the ONLY.


There are several impacts of everything, but I think my simplification is a good generalization of the choices in front of us.

If we apply tariffs, prices will go up no doubt. But there will be more jobs in the country and less money flowing out to other countries. I prefer a situation where everyone who wants to work has jobs but prices are higher than they are now. We are living in an artificially deflated price environment.

I understand your point.

I guess from my perspective...being so entrenched in this situation, it's hard to simplify in my mind. But I too want employment to be at max capacity and the country stronger internally.


We are on the same page!
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Over_ed
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In reply to infinity ag • 12:06p, 8/1/25
infinity ag said:
AgGrad99 said:
infinity ag said:
AgGrad99 said:
infinity ag said:
Lower Prices or More Jobs?

That is the choice in front of us. You cannot have both.

that's a bit of a strawman argument because it completely ignores economies of scale, unrelated/unrealized cost savings, alternate means of supply, etc...

Lower output typically means higher prices. When the output grows, pricing can come down. You cannot grow the output, without hiring additional labor.

Labor is ONE area you can cut cost. It's not the ONLY.


There are several impacts of everything, but I think my simplification is a good generalization of the choices in front of us.

If we apply tariffs, prices will go up no doubt. But there will be more jobs in the country and less money flowing out to other countries. I prefer a situation where everyone who wants to work has jobs but prices are higher than they are now. We are living in an artificially deflated price environment.

I understand your point.

I guess from my perspective...being so entrenched in this situation, it's hard to simplify in my mind. But I too want employment to be at max capacity and the country stronger internally.


We are on the same page!

2 points.

Immediate:

1) Trump's tariffs are greatly increasing raw material costs. Aluminum, copper, steel...

Tariffs do lead to (at least) a one time price hike. Some argue this is not inflation, btw.
But, tariffs on raw materials make our manufactured goods more expensive than other countries' w/o tarrffs.
More expensive => less demand
Less demand => fewer workers needed.

Long term:

Factory jobs will dry up everywhere labor isn't slave wages. Robots/AI will be cheaper and better than humans.

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BigRobSA
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In reply to Ferg • 12:12p, 8/1/25
Ferg said:
jt16 said:

Trump is one of the most fiscal liberal presidents we have ever seen. He literally shamed the republicans into throwing one more $1T Covid grift on his way out the door last term. And these tariff rates have gone beyond protecting American jobs. It's one of the most massive tax increases on Americans we have experienced. And people that think they are conservative cheer it on because they love the chaos that comes with Trump.

Its a consumption Tax, which many on this board have said they would prefer to Income Tax. Given the $37T in Debt and the continuing budget deficits, I'm not sure its a bad solution to help close the gap.

A consumption tax, of sorts, but unless we

Cut taxes, especially corporations (but cut for everyone)
Massively deregulate
---these are both reasons we lost mfg in the first place---
and GUT spending

We won't have any domestic mfg to be able to choose from and the increased prices on the things we do have won't allow for consumption of any reasonably priced items. We'll be forcibly made to pay more "just because". A continuation of the idea that govt steals our hard-earned income.
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ABATTBQ11
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In reply to infinity ag • 12:42p, 8/1/25
AG
infinity ag said:
If one willingly allows jobs to leave and wring hands about it, what else will happen?
We have done nothing about that.

jobs jobs jobs.
If there are no jobs, there is no country.


The problem is that a lot of manufacturing is the equivalent of working at McDonald's. You run a mostly automated machine or do a very repetitive task that takes very little skill, but people doing manufacturing jobs want to get paid like they're running a lathe or a mill. Paying those jobs what people here think they're worth means products will inevitably be more expensive than people value them at.

Look at the $70 grill scrubber. That's about 2-3 hours of wages for the median person. Most people aren't going to value a kitchen utensil at that price relative to everything else they buy. You can't make it here for less not because of the lack of manufacturing facilities or professionals, but because the people who would work those jobs are not willing to do it at a rate that would allow it. It's the equivalent of people wanting fast food workers to make $20/hr with the expectation that restaurants can sell a $15 hamburger. Customers simply don't value a Whopper or 1/4 Pounder that high.
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txyaloo
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In reply to MemphisAg1 • 12:46p, 8/1/25
AG
MemphisAg1 said:

I don't like government-forced solutions, whether it's the Dem approach of forcing vaccines on people or Trump's attempt to tell people where they have to make their Iphone or how to price the medicines they offer to the market.

I think if .gov is paying for the research to develop the medicines, they can set limits on pricing and where the product can be sold.

If private industry doesn't like it, stop taking tax dollars and fund your research internally. Stop selling products less expensively overseas subsidized by the American tax payer. It's ridiculous.

I agree .gov should have less influence on telling Apple what to do, but I think drugs should primarily be manufactured in the US for the domestic market.
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Artimus Gordon
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12:56p, 8/1/25
AG
So that would be 4 years under bieden and 6 months under trump. It's going to take time for trump to build back better. You don't just turn around Biden's snowball headed to hell in just 6 months.
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MemphisAg1
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In reply to txyaloo • 1:01p, 8/1/25
AG
txyaloo said:
MemphisAg1 said:

I don't like government-forced solutions, whether it's the Dem approach of forcing vaccines on people or Trump's attempt to tell people where they have to make their Iphone or how to price the medicines they offer to the market.

I think if .gov is paying for the research to develop the medicines, they can set limits on pricing and where the product can be sold.

If private industry doesn't like it, stop taking tax dollars and fund your research internally. Stop selling products less expensively overseas subsidized by the American tax payer. It's ridiculous.

I agree .gov should have less influence on telling Apple what to do, but I think drugs should primarily be manufactured in the US for the domestic market.

There's a lot of wrong in that statement. The overwhelming R&D for new medicines comes from private companies investing it it, not from the government. For every successful one they make, they burn tons of cash on 100 that don't pan out. They recover their losses on the 100 with the one that's successful. The government gives them a patent which allows them to recoup their investment plus a return, and when the patent expires it opens up competition to generic alternatives which helps drive the price down. There are many cheap drugs out there today that were expensive during their first several years on the market. The US is the leader in medical and drug advancements because of capitalism, not in spite of it.

Using your example, any government research in agriculture -- or subsidies to farmers -- should also allow the government to set food prices in the grocery store. The government subsidizes food much more than medicine.

No thanks. We need less government, not more.
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ETFan
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In reply to Ferg • 1:39p, 8/1/25
Ferg said:
jt16 said:
infinity ag said:
If one willingly allows jobs to leave and wring hands about it, what else will happen?
We have done nothing about that.

jobs jobs jobs.
If there are no jobs, there is no country.


Trump is one of the most fiscal liberal presidents we have ever seen. He literally shamed the republicans into throwing one more $1T Covid grift on his way out the door last term. And these tariff rates have gone beyond protecting American jobs. It's one of the most massive tax increases on Americans we have experienced. And people that think they are conservative cheer it on because they love the chaos that comes with Trump.

Its a consumption Tax, which many on this board have said they would prefer to Income Tax. Given the $37T in Debt and the continuing budget deficits, I'm not sure its a bad solution to help close the gap.

Hard to believe the national debt is of any concern to this admin or any conservative. Their policy says as much.
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infinity ag
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1:45p, 8/1/25
There you go

President Trump says he will fire BLS commissioner after July jobs report disappoints
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-says-he-will-fire-bls-commissioner-after-july-jobs-report-disappoints-182118416.html
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infinity ag
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In reply to ABATTBQ11 • 1:47p, 8/1/25
ABATTBQ11 said:
infinity ag said:
If one willingly allows jobs to leave and wring hands about it, what else will happen?
We have done nothing about that.

jobs jobs jobs.
If there are no jobs, there is no country.


The problem is that a lot of manufacturing is the equivalent of working at McDonald's. You run a mostly automated machine or do a very repetitive task that takes very little skill, but people doing manufacturing jobs want to get paid like they're running a lathe or a mill. Paying those jobs what people here think they're worth means products will inevitably be more expensive than people value them at.

Look at the $70 grill scrubber. That's about 2-3 hours of wages for the median person. Most people aren't going to value a kitchen utensil at that price relative to everything else they buy. You can't make it here for less not because of the lack of manufacturing facilities or professionals, but because the people who would work those jobs are not willing to do it at a rate that would allow it. It's the equivalent of people wanting fast food workers to make $20/hr with the expectation that restaurants can sell a $15 hamburger. Customers simply don't value a Whopper or 1/4 Pounder that high.


You are right, but there is a large swathe of population which isn't too bright and just want a clock in and out job. They cannot build AI models and never will. They also need to live and so the country needs to provide jobs for them also else they will be homeless, die on the streets etc. So as I see it, there is no way other than to take a hit somewhere in order to not let that happen.
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richardag
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In reply to infinity ag • 2:40p, 8/1/25
infinity ag said:
There you go

President Trump says he will fire BLS commissioner after July jobs report disappoints
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-says-he-will-fire-bls-commissioner-after-july-jobs-report-disappoints-182118416.html

Do I understand this correctly?
So the BLS was continuing the trend of projecting larger employment gains then revising them downward when the data became available.
The Biden Administration tolerated this, the MSM buried the numbers. The BLS Commissioner was not held accountable, until now.
Please feel free to correct me if I have this wrong.
Among the latter, under pretence of governing they have divided their nations into two classes, wolves and sheep.”
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Edward Carrington, January 16, 1787
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Athanasius
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2:47p, 8/1/25
AG
Be careful of any data that includes the Covid period. There were unique lows and a subsequent unique set of highs that confuse assumptions.

Better data looks at pre-covid, accounts for abnormalities, and goes from there.
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BusterAg
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In reply to Ferg • 3:44p, 8/1/25
AG
Ferg said:
jt16 said:
infinity ag said:
If one willingly allows jobs to leave and wring hands about it, what else will happen?
We have done nothing about that.

jobs jobs jobs.
If there are no jobs, there is no country.


Trump is one of the most fiscal liberal presidents we have ever seen. He literally shamed the republicans into throwing one more $1T Covid grift on his way out the door last term. And these tariff rates have gone beyond protecting American jobs. It's one of the most massive tax increases on Americans we have experienced. And people that think they are conservative cheer it on because they love the chaos that comes with Trump.

Its a consumption Tax, which many on this board have said they would prefer to Income Tax. Given the $37T in Debt and the continuing budget deficits, I'm not sure its a bad solution to help close the gap.

Let's pretend like it is a tax.

What government service are you paying for with this tax?

More domestic jobs? That doesn't sound so bad?
It takes a special kind of brainwashed useful idiot to politically defend government fraud, waste, and abuse.
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BusterAg
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In reply to Over_ed • 3:55p, 8/1/25
AG
Over_ed said:

Tariffs do lead to (at least) a one time price hike. Some argue this is not inflation, btw.

If you have two products that you as a country make, and you make 100 of each a year, and they each cost $1. Then you pass a tariff on Product A, and it goes up to $1.10. The next year, the country sells 100 of product A at $1.10 and 100 of product B at $0.90. What was inflation for the year?

The next year, the country sells 90 of Product A at $1, and 110 of Product B at $1. What was inflation for the second year?

There was the same amount of money in circulation / spent, so there was no inflation.

Inflation always is and always will be a monetary phenomenon.
It takes a special kind of brainwashed useful idiot to politically defend government fraud, waste, and abuse.
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Ferg
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In reply to BusterAg • 3:57p, 8/1/25
BusterAg said:
Ferg said:
jt16 said:
infinity ag said:
If one willingly allows jobs to leave and wring hands about it, what else will happen?
We have done nothing about that.

jobs jobs jobs.
If there are no jobs, there is no country.


Trump is one of the most fiscal liberal presidents we have ever seen. He literally shamed the republicans into throwing one more $1T Covid grift on his way out the door last term. And these tariff rates have gone beyond protecting American jobs. It's one of the most massive tax increases on Americans we have experienced. And people that think they are conservative cheer it on because they love the chaos that comes with Trump.

Its a consumption Tax, which many on this board have said they would prefer to Income Tax. Given the $37T in Debt and the continuing budget deficits, I'm not sure its a bad solution to help close the gap.

Let's pretend like it is a tax.

What government service are you paying for with this tax?

More domestic jobs? That doesn't sound so bad?

Debt service also.
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In reply to MemphisAg1 • 3:59p, 8/1/25
AG
MemphisAg1 said:
txyaloo said:
MemphisAg1 said:

I don't like government-forced solutions, whether it's the Dem approach of forcing vaccines on people or Trump's attempt to tell people where they have to make their Iphone or how to price the medicines they offer to the market.

I think if .gov is paying for the research to develop the medicines, they can set limits on pricing and where the product can be sold.

If private industry doesn't like it, stop taking tax dollars and fund your research internally. Stop selling products less expensively overseas subsidized by the American tax payer. It's ridiculous.

I agree .gov should have less influence on telling Apple what to do, but I think drugs should primarily be manufactured in the US for the domestic market.

There's a lot of wrong in that statement. The overwhelming R&D for new medicines comes from private companies investing it it, not from the government. For every successful one they make, they burn tons of cash on 100 that don't pan out. They recover their losses on the 100 with the one that's successful. The government gives them a patent which allows them to recoup their investment plus a return, and when the patent expires it opens up competition to generic alternatives which helps drive the price down. There are many cheap drugs out there today that were expensive during their first several years on the market. The US is the leader in medical and drug advancements because of capitalism, not in spite of it.

Using your example, any government research in agriculture -- or subsidies to farmers -- should also allow the government to set food prices in the grocery store. The government subsidizes food much more than medicine.

No thanks. We need less government, not more.

I don't want the government to set prices.

I just want the government to use its massive buying power to negotiate better prices for the money the government spends.
It takes a special kind of brainwashed useful idiot to politically defend government fraud, waste, and abuse.
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In reply to BusterAg • 4:05p, 8/1/25
AG
Agree with that.
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Over_ed
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In reply to BusterAg • 4:12p, 8/1/25
BusterAg said:
Ferg said:
jt16 said:
infinity ag said:
If one willingly allows jobs to leave and wring hands about it, what else will happen?
We have done nothing about that.

jobs jobs jobs.
If there are no jobs, there is no country.


Trump is one of the most fiscal liberal presidents we have ever seen. He literally shamed the republicans into throwing one more $1T Covid grift on his way out the door last term. And these tariff rates have gone beyond protecting American jobs. It's one of the most massive tax increases on Americans we have experienced. And people that think they are conservative cheer it on because they love the chaos that comes with Trump.

Its a consumption Tax, which many on this board have said they would prefer to Income Tax. Given the $37T in Debt and the continuing budget deficits, I'm not sure its a bad solution to help close the gap.

Let's pretend like it is a tax.

What government service are you paying for with this tax?

More domestic jobs? That doesn't sound so bad?

My reply to both...

Ferg, if only we were closing the gap. You can read the BBB and still say that with a straight face? :-) Trump is not intrested in solving the deficit and never has been.

BusterAg,

ABATTBQ11 is right on target, companies don't prosper, or even survive, if the products they make are over-priced.

Please explain how tariffs make US companies more competitive, allow them to lower the price of their products, or innovate? In the end, US consumers pay a more, companies are protected, become LESS efficient, and our mfg environment further degrades compared to the rest of the world.

I admire Trump for many things, but neither budget discipline nor tariffs number among those many things.



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In reply to Over_ed • 4:36p, 8/1/25
AG
Over_ed said:

Please explain how tariffs make US companies more competitive, allow them to lower the price of their products, or innovate? In the end, US consumers pay a more, companies are protected, become LESS efficient, and our mfg environment further degrades compared to the rest of the world.

Many of these statements assume that trading partners will 1) Pass reciprocal tariffs in response; and 2) will not manipulate trade through currency manipulation and / or subsidies to their domestic industries.

In a world where China is the one who has massively inefficient manufacturers, but the costs of those inefficiencies are born by the country of China as a whole due to massive currency manipulation and giant subsidies, and not the individual manufacturers, and US companies could be more efficient than China manufacturers without China's interference, do reciprocal U.S. tariffs increase or decrease world efficiency? Increase or decrease US manufacturing output?

Quote:
I admire Trump for many things, but neither budget discipline nor tariffs number among those many things.

I tend to agree with you on this. But, according to data so far, Trump seems more right than wrong when it comes to Tariffs.
It takes a special kind of brainwashed useful idiot to politically defend government fraud, waste, and abuse.
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