Captn_Ag05 said:
Surely you, the prominent bar and restaurant guy in town, don't know more about the bar business than random internet guy.
Well I do often refer to myself as an over glorified pizza cook.
Getting Northgate Right
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Last: 7 hrs ago by PS3D
Well I do often refer to myself as an over glorified pizza cook.
Is there a major university anywhere that doesn't have a student bar district? ( Bailor being the outlier)
I guess I'll also say that "this model" with more police is indicative of many successful entertainment districts in the state, USA and around the world for that matter. Comes with the territory. College Station has grown and Northgate with it.
We went to Vegas last year and I was surprised that there was a police station at Freemont. I even asked the waiter about it and the businesses love having it there. It "got rid of most of the idiots" was her exact reply.
Organic entertainment districts are nothing if not survivors. They persist because they are ingrained in culture in a way outsiders can't understand and insiders cannot explain.
Northgate epitomizes this.
City hall needs to enhance Northgate with upgrades and sculpture; maintain Northgate and put a police substation there and I imagine everything will be fine.
We haven't fought this hard only to give up!
Gig 'em
Yancy '95
Northgate epitomizes this.
City hall needs to enhance Northgate with upgrades and sculpture; maintain Northgate and put a police substation there and I imagine everything will be fine.
We haven't fought this hard only to give up!
Gig 'em
Yancy '95
Bob Yancy said:
Fix the broken planters. Fix the rusty promenade shade structures. Fix the unsightly beds in front of the parking garage. Resurface the city surface lot. Spruce up the city parking garage.
Shouldn't the city be doing that anyway?
TXAG 05 said:Bob Yancy said:
Fix the broken planters. Fix the rusty promenade shade structures. Fix the unsightly beds in front of the parking garage. Resurface the city surface lot. Spruce up the city parking garage.
Shouldn't the city be doing that anyway?
Yes we should have been.
Frankly and respectfully
Yancy '95
Here's what AI did with the parking lot area from the presentations and discussions at the council meeting.
Any lost city revenue from less parking spots would be made up in ticketing all these cars that are parked over the lines.
Any lost city revenue from less parking spots would be made up in ticketing all these cars that are parked over the lines.
Bob Yancy said:
Organic entertainment districts are nothing if not survivors. They persist because they are ingrained in culture in a way outsiders can't understand and insiders cannot explain.
Northgate epitomizes this.
City hall needs to enhance Northgate with upgrades and sculpture; maintain Northgate and put a police substation there and I imagine everything will be fine.
We haven't fought this hard only to give up!
Gig 'em
Yancy '95
You used this "organic" term as if Northgate has been some notorious landmark for all time.
Truth is outside of the Chicken and Dudley's, Northgate hasn't been anything. I guess you can include Freebirds. I remember when it opened. I spent a couple hours waiting in line for a "free bird" the day it opened. How many places have come and gone there in just the past 10 years? How much vacancy is there at the ground floor retail spaces created by the high rises? What is the price/square?
I live in Katy. If you don't want to hear from a parent of a student that has lived in a high rise at NG, then move on. Oh, and I have another that will start this fall. Living on campus. Living on campus mostly b/c every fish must have a campus meal plan of crappy choices.
What NG desperately needs is a grocery store. My son has to goto the zoo that is HEB in Bryan. Or Costco. He hates NG. He'll tell you that if your male and underage, you can't hardly get into the bars at NG. So, he doesn't even try. He'll tell you that if you are female, you won't get carded and will be ushered to the front of the line. He'll also tell you that the demographic living at NG doesn't look like him. And that's putting it nicely. There isn't really that much to eat around and what there is is super expensive.
He and his room mates are super happy that they've rented a house south of campus in CS near the CS HEB on Wellborn. Even though NG is super convenient to campus where he can roll out of the rack 10min before class. I'm glad too. Gonna save me over $400/mo in rent.
Another thing. The high rise he's currently in till August, offered a free month of rent and $700 cash if he renewed. I'm guessing sign of the times since so many beds will debut this fall. The one he is in was sold this past spring and has changed management. The rooms are nice, but the amenities need some upgrades and maintenance. With so many being built, this place and others could quickly become a real problem...
More proof AI has a ways to go lol.
That's pretty cool, but we still need rideshare drop off and a deliveries lane and some limited surface parking.
NG desperately needs a grocer or something like an urban Target. It would be great if one of the high rise developers pursued this. As great as we think it would be, the city can't force one to locate there.
If NG is going to be a true urban neighborhood, it also needs more services to support residents - coffee shops, cafes, hair/nail salons, etc etc. 18,000 students could be living in this area in a couple of years, but it will never thrive if they have to leave the area for all their daily needs.
Retail follows rooftops, so I expect much of this will develop over the next several years.
If NG is going to be a true urban neighborhood, it also needs more services to support residents - coffee shops, cafes, hair/nail salons, etc etc. 18,000 students could be living in this area in a couple of years, but it will never thrive if they have to leave the area for all their daily needs.
Retail follows rooftops, so I expect much of this will develop over the next several years.
Captn_Ag05 said:
Here's what AI did with the parking lot area from the presentations and discussions at the council meeting.
Any lost city revenue from less parking spots would be made up in ticketing all these cars that are parked over the lines.
I like the clown cars in the right corner of the old parking lot. The circus must be in town.
Watching some of the video now (thanks for posting). Might be unrelated, but is there any pushback on TAMU that can happen to accommodate some of the needed growth? My specific thought is that a huge part of the need for some of this high-rise development so close to campus is that TAMU has not kept up with the university planned growth with a proportionate growth in campus housing, effectively shifting that demand to Northgate and other campus adjacent locations. I know this isn't the only problem, but it's just something I'd been thinking about lately.
Compact car spots
Even if they do an overlay of the "core" northgate area limiting the height, there is still quite a bit of area that is available for development for additional high rise housing. For example, the old FedEx/Kinkos lot at University and Stasney, all of the land bound by First, Louise, Spruce, and Boyett, etc. Plus, more opportunity to advance into Bryan.
Captn_Ag05 said:
Even if they do an overlay of the "core" northgate area limiting the height, there is still quite a bit of area that is available for development for additional high rise housing. For example, the old FedEx/Kinkos lot at University and Stasney, all of the land bound by First, Louise, Spruce, and Boyett, etc. Plus, more opportunity to advance into Bryan.
Yeah, that was kinda where my question was coming from, rather than enforcing limits, could you get a similar result by reducing the demand for housing on the immediate perimeter of campus because there is enough housing directly on campus. So rely on market supply/demand forces rather than directives that make it inefficient from a ROI perspective to build a 20 story dorm right there.
Dr. Horrible said:
Watching some of the video now (thanks for posting). Might be unrelated, but is there any pushback on TAMU that can happen to accommodate some of the needed growth? My specific thought is that a huge part of the need for some of this high-rise development so close to campus is that TAMU has not kept up with the university planned growth with a proportionate growth in campus housing, effectively shifting that demand to Northgate and other campus adjacent locations. I know this isn't the only problem, but it's just something I'd been thinking about lately.
Has to be part of the plan. TAMU cancelled or delayed plans for on campus housing. Hullabaloo hall is the only on campus housing where you get your own bathroom. All the new rooms at NG feature your own bathroom. Living at Hullabaloo, which is the most expensive dorm, is cost comparable to living at NG. Guessing TAMU wants to get out of the student housing business. The private equity market seems to be taking up the slack.
Just like so many other universities, only fish will live on campus.
Also in Jan 2025, TAMU announced it will cap undergraduate enrollment for the "next 5 to 7 years".
Gator92 said:
You used this "organic" term as if Northgate has been some notorious landmark for all time.
Truth is outside of the Chicken and Dudley's, Northgate hasn't been anything. I guess you can include Freebirds. I remember when it opened. I spent a couple hours waiting in line for a "free bird" the day it opened. How many places have come and gone there in just the past 10 years? How much vacancy is there at the ground floor retail spaces created by the high rises? What is the price/square?
It wasn't this thread but one from within the last year or so that talked about Northgate, the idea that it was always some entertainment district is straight revisionist history. It's not exactly "organic" either, the promenade was entirely a city idea to close off an alleyway and condemn a building. (I hate to toot my own horn but I do have some pictures if you want to see), only for the city to regret doing the promenade because it created so many problems that they had to enact an ordinance against open containers, defeating the whole purpose.
I can't really say what the future of Northgate SHOULD be; with the new apartment developments that seems to be decided for it. I would agree that it needs some sort of supermarket, but I don't see a place for it. Target doesn't build the "urban Target" stores anymore and many of them have closed. The best and only chance for a Northgate supermarket was when Albertsons proposed reopening the store but that was scrapped when they scaled back the company and in the process closed the Houston division (it's a miracle that the Bryan Albertsons even opened and lasted as long as it did, even if it was for just four years). Oak Terrace might be a good idea but that's in Bryan, and besides, they've got their own ideas for it (why that's on CoCS's website, no idea).
Besides, even if you wanted the idea of Northgate as an entertainment district, making it harder and more expensive to access is counter-intuitive. If you wanted Northgate to thrive, you shouldn't be talking ideas like "what if we made the main road a construction zone for the next 20 years" or "what if we took the main parking lot and just deleted it, wouldn't that be neat"? My personal opinion is that there needs to be an entertainment district formed elsewhere that's cheaper and easier to access.
Boston's Scollay Square
Once a vibrant, bustling 19th century district packed with theaters, bars, penny arcades, and eclectic local businesses, it was demolished in the early 1960s as part of a massive urban renewal project. The city replaced it with the sterile Government Center and City Hall Plaza, a move widely criticized by urban planners and historians of Boston as the destruction of an irreplaceable cultural hub.
San Fran's Fillmoe
Known in the 1950s as the "Harlem of the West", this organic Black-owned arts and entertainment district boasted a world-renowned jazz scene where artists like Billie Holiday and John Coltrane regularly performed. "Urban renewal" bulldozed vast swaths of the neighborhood. The city later deeply regretted the destruction of this tight-knit economic and cultural engine, spending decades and millions trying to revive the area.
New York's Rondout
In the late 1960s, the city demolished the majority of its historic 19th-century downtown, which had served as an active, organic social and entertainment hub. The intent was to modernize, but the resulting development languished for decades, prompting the city to later express remorse over the unfulfilled promises and the permanent loss of unique architectural and social heritage.
Atlantic City
While initially driven by evolving travel trends rather than a single urban renewal project, the city made conscious decisions in the 1970s and 80s to abandon its charming, family-friendly Americana roots and historic piers in favor of massive casino mega-developments. This top-down replacement led to a hollowed-out city core, and modern city planners now point to Atlantic City as a cautionary tale of prioritizing mega-projects over preserving a district's organic character.
College Station's Northgate
A case study in how a city can protect its cultural heritage in the face of dizzying growth. As the original downtown dating back to the 1800s, it would organically transform into a cultural and social gathering place for Aggies of all generations as it was encroached upon from all sides by massive revenue generating student housing towers. Rather than acquiescing to a complete redevelopment and the eradication of the district, city hall heard the citizens, preserved and enhanced the core Northgate area and secured the district's future for generations of current and future Aggies to come.
The first four case studies are AI. The last one is yours truly.
Respectfully and Gig 'em
Yancy '95
Once a vibrant, bustling 19th century district packed with theaters, bars, penny arcades, and eclectic local businesses, it was demolished in the early 1960s as part of a massive urban renewal project. The city replaced it with the sterile Government Center and City Hall Plaza, a move widely criticized by urban planners and historians of Boston as the destruction of an irreplaceable cultural hub.
San Fran's Fillmoe
Known in the 1950s as the "Harlem of the West", this organic Black-owned arts and entertainment district boasted a world-renowned jazz scene where artists like Billie Holiday and John Coltrane regularly performed. "Urban renewal" bulldozed vast swaths of the neighborhood. The city later deeply regretted the destruction of this tight-knit economic and cultural engine, spending decades and millions trying to revive the area.
New York's Rondout
In the late 1960s, the city demolished the majority of its historic 19th-century downtown, which had served as an active, organic social and entertainment hub. The intent was to modernize, but the resulting development languished for decades, prompting the city to later express remorse over the unfulfilled promises and the permanent loss of unique architectural and social heritage.
Atlantic City
While initially driven by evolving travel trends rather than a single urban renewal project, the city made conscious decisions in the 1970s and 80s to abandon its charming, family-friendly Americana roots and historic piers in favor of massive casino mega-developments. This top-down replacement led to a hollowed-out city core, and modern city planners now point to Atlantic City as a cautionary tale of prioritizing mega-projects over preserving a district's organic character.
College Station's Northgate
A case study in how a city can protect its cultural heritage in the face of dizzying growth. As the original downtown dating back to the 1800s, it would organically transform into a cultural and social gathering place for Aggies of all generations as it was encroached upon from all sides by massive revenue generating student housing towers. Rather than acquiescing to a complete redevelopment and the eradication of the district, city hall heard the citizens, preserved and enhanced the core Northgate area and secured the district's future for generations of current and future Aggies to come.
The first four case studies are AI. The last one is yours truly.
Respectfully and Gig 'em
Yancy '95
Thoughts? Keep it constructive please.
Ideas great. Location is key. Not sure the parking garage is the right spot.
Agreed. Too far away from the activity. To give credit where due, the idea for the substation originated from staff.
AOMOC, I think this is likely what we'll wind up doing. I wholeheartedly support it.
Respectfully
Yancy '95
AOMOC, I think this is likely what we'll wind up doing. I wholeheartedly support it.
Respectfully
Yancy '95
Bob Yancy said:
Thoughts? Keep it constructive please.
Back in the early 2000s there used to be a substation in the parking garage in Northgate. Is that no longer there?
Gator92 said:Bob Yancy said:
Organic entertainment districts are nothing if not survivors. They persist because they are ingrained in culture in a way outsiders can't understand and insiders cannot explain.
Northgate epitomizes this.
City hall needs to enhance Northgate with upgrades and sculpture; maintain Northgate and put a police substation there and I imagine everything will be fine.
We haven't fought this hard only to give up!
Gig 'em
Yancy '95
You used this "organic" term as if Northgate has been some notorious landmark for all time.
Truth is outside of the Chicken and Dudley's, Northgate hasn't been anything. I guess you can include Freebirds. I remember when it opened. I spent a couple hours waiting in line for a "free bird" the day it opened. How many places have come and gone there in just the past 10 years? How much vacancy is there at the ground floor retail spaces created by the high rises? What is the price/square?
I live in Katy. If you don't want to hear from a parent of a student that has lived in a high rise at NG, then move on. Oh, and I have another that will start this fall. Living on campus. Living on campus mostly b/c every fish must have a campus meal plan of crappy choices.
What NG desperately needs is a grocery store. My son has to goto the zoo that is HEB in Bryan. Or Costco. He hates NG. He'll tell you that if your male and underage, you can't hardly get into the bars at NG. So, he doesn't even try. He'll tell you that if you are female, you won't get carded and will be ushered to the front of the line. He'll also tell you that the demographic living at NG doesn't look like him. And that's putting it nicely. There isn't really that much to eat around and what there is is super expensive.
He and his room mates are super happy that they've rented a house south of campus in CS near the CS HEB on Wellborn. Even though NG is super convenient to campus where he can roll out of the rack 10min before class. I'm glad too. Gonna save me over $400/mo in rent.
Another thing. The high rise he's currently in till August, offered a free month of rent and $700 cash if he renewed. I'm guessing sign of the times since so many beds will debut this fall. The one he is in was sold this past spring and has changed management. The rooms are nice, but the amenities need some upgrades and maintenance. With so many being built, this place and others could quickly become a real problem...
Instead of a bar district, a shopping area and grocery store make the most sense! This would be wonderful! An HEB or Target in that space would be a total upgrade!
Put that in Hensel Park instead of a Reed replacement.
I believe there's a small parking enforcement office there.
Gator92 said:Dr. Horrible said:
Watching some of the video now (thanks for posting). Might be unrelated, but is there any pushback on TAMU that can happen to accommodate some of the needed growth? My specific thought is that a huge part of the need for some of this high-rise development so close to campus is that TAMU has not kept up with the university planned growth with a proportionate growth in campus housing, effectively shifting that demand to Northgate and other campus adjacent locations. I know this isn't the only problem, but it's just something I'd been thinking about lately.
Has to be part of the plan. TAMU cancelled or delayed plans for on campus housing. Hullabaloo hall is the only on campus housing where you get your own bathroom. All the new rooms at NG feature your own bathroom. Living at Hullabaloo, which is the most expensive dorm, is cost comparable to living at NG. Guessing TAMU wants to get out of the student housing business. The private equity market seems to be taking up the slack.
Just like so many other universities, only fish will live on campus.
Also in Jan 2025, TAMU announced it will cap undergraduate enrollment for the "next 5 to 7 years".
An old prof once told me A&M long ago decided to limit dorm space on campus. He contended it was a nod to real estate investors back in the day, dunno how accurate that was. But he was right in that new dorm construction has been way behind the student pop for decades.
The left cannot kill the Spirit of Charlie Kirk.
I remember when Northgate consisted of a variety of restaurants, a bike shop, a camera shop, Hollick's, ice cream store, a pool hall, a bookstore, clothing retail, and on and on...
Seems to me, if we are about protecting the character of NG, we'd be looking at ways to get back to that. It's just a bunch of bars now with a few eateries thrown in. If I'm being honest, I'm a little turned off by the appeal to emotion that is the idea of protecting the character or history of NG. The city has had a hand in where we are today because of the approval of all the licenses up there to open these establishments.
I'd also love to see the figures for how much revenue these NG businesses generate for the city compared to the cost to provide all the services they use.
Seems to me, if we are about protecting the character of NG, we'd be looking at ways to get back to that. It's just a bunch of bars now with a few eateries thrown in. If I'm being honest, I'm a little turned off by the appeal to emotion that is the idea of protecting the character or history of NG. The city has had a hand in where we are today because of the approval of all the licenses up there to open these establishments.
I'd also love to see the figures for how much revenue these NG businesses generate for the city compared to the cost to provide all the services they use.
jimbo457 said:
I remember when Northgate consisted of a variety of restaurants, a bike shop, a camera shop, Hollick's, ice cream store, a pool hall, a bookstore, clothing retail, and on and on...
Seems to me, if we are about protecting the character of NG, we'd be looking at ways to get back to that. It's just a bunch of bars now with a few eateries thrown in. If I'm being honest, I'm a little turned off by the appeal to emotion that is the idea of protecting the character or history of NG. The city has had a hand in where we are today because of the approval of all the licenses up there to open these establishments.
I'd also love to see the figures for how much revenue these NG businesses generate for the city compared to the cost to provide all the services they use.
Respectfully it's not all about city revenue. If it was, there'd be nothing but student towers everywhere given their massive tax revenue. This time next year those structures will constitute 9 out of 10, maybe 10 out of the top 10 valued properties city wide. The city collects significant revenue from greater Northgate.
If a little emotional appeal will carve out Northgate and protect it on just that small patch, I'm okay with that. And I suspect if we take care of it and maintain the few amenities the city has invested in over the years and maybe add a modest few, we'll see several of those niche establishments revitalize and in some cases, repurpose themselves, while the more historical venues remain.
Respectfully, as one member of council
Yancy '95
Bob Yancy said:
The first four case studies are AI. The last one is yours truly.
No one's talking about tearing down Northgate as an urban renewal project, so I'm not sure what neighborhoods from 60+ years ago have to do with anything.
I'm not sure if you meant to reply to me or not, it certainly doesn't have to do with anything I was talking about.
PS3D said:Bob Yancy said:
The first four case studies are AI. The last one is yours truly.
No one's talking about tearing down Northgate as an urban renewal project, so I'm not sure what neighborhoods from 60+ years ago have to do with anything.
I'm not sure if you meant to reply to me or not, it certainly doesn't have to do with anything I was talking about.
No sir I was not replying to you.
Respectfully
Yancy '95
jimbo457 said:
I remember when Northgate consisted of a variety of restaurants, a bike shop, a camera shop, Hollick's, ice cream store, a pool hall, a bookstore, clothing retail, and on and on...
Seems to me, if we are about protecting the character of NG, we'd be looking at ways to get back to that. It's just a bunch of bars now with a few eateries thrown in. If I'm being honest, I'm a little turned off by the appeal to emotion that is the idea of protecting the character or history of NG. The city has had a hand in where we are today because of the approval of all the licenses up there to open these establishments.
I'd also love to see the figures for how much revenue these NG businesses generate for the city compared to the cost to provide all the services they use.
THIS!!!
Those of us who remember the old Northgate know it wasn't always an entertainment district built almost entirely around bars. It was College Station's original downtown. You could grab coffee at Dead Lazlo's, browse music at Marooned Records, shop at Loupot's or the Texas Aggie Bookstore, stop by Holick's, grab Afritata at Nipa Hot, or food at the Cow Hop. There epic casual fine dining at Cafe Eccell!!!! There was a bike shop, a camera shop, restaurants, and all kinds of locally owned businesses through the years. It was a place people visited all day, not just after 10 p.m. It used to be alive. Now it's a dirty & filthy eyesore. It's really shocking.
The Northgate we have today isn't preserving its character; it's the result of decades of replacing that diversity with an ever-growing concentration of bars. That's not a sustainable model for the future, nor is it what made Northgate special in the first place.
If we truly care about preserving Northgate, we should be encouraging the return of the kinds of businesses that once made it a destination for students, families, alumni, and residents every day of the week not just on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights. We must end the bar district it's become.
If the type of places you mentioned thought NG was a profitable place to open they would buy/rent space when it comes available. They have not. What you are asking is for government to work against one set of local business owners in favor of another, which is a terrible idea.
EFR said:
If the type of places you mentioned thought NG was a profitable place to open they would buy/rent space when it comes available. They have not. What you are asking is for government to work against one set of local business owners in favor of another, which is a terrible idea.
I agree with this, but I think that ship has sailed. Much of the council meeting discussed what they can do to "preserve" NG, including putting height restrictions of 3-5 stories for the specific reason of keeping the type of businesses that are there currently there in the future and make it unprofitable for something like a high density student housing or a hotel project. Counci members and city staff seem comfortable overriding the free market here. Just like you can't be a little bit pregnant, you can't be a little bit supportive of the free market.
Our city leadership has moved on to the stage of picking winners and losers and deciding what is worthwhile and what isn't. That isn't intended to be a criticism of them or even the decision. But, claims about being free market fall on deaf ears at this point.