Muscle Car question

3,145 Views | 41 Replies | Last: 10 days ago by classicdoug
Buck Turgidson
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1:31p, 5/2/26
I was never much of a muscle car expert, but I wonder why Chevy had the Camaro, Chevelle, Impala and Nova all competing for heavily overlapping buyers. That doesn't even consider the GM muscle cars under other brands like Pontiac, Olds and Buick. Seems like they were cannibalizing themselves. Any muscle car experts know why they had so many overlapping models?

Chevy Muscle Cars: The Ultimate List (1964-1974)
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CactusThomas
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1:43p, 5/2/26
AG
Wasn't the nova an economy car at the time? They make great hot rods now but I'm not sure they should be called muscle cars.
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malenurse
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1:44p, 5/2/26
AG
Smarter people than me have tried to figure out GM and it's divisions. The simple answer is different demographics for the vehicles.

The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But, it's still on the list.
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malenurse
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In reply to CactusThomas • 1:47p, 5/2/26
AG
My first car was a 1974 Olds Omega. Basically the same car.

That was considered a compact car in the 70's. Mine had a 350 cid V8 with a 4 barrel carb.

Although it paled in comparison with the G-body (Cutlass, Monte Carlo, Regal, Grand Prix) cars, it could certainly lay down some rubber.
The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But, it's still on the list.
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Corps_Ag12
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In reply to Buck Turgidson • 1:59p, 5/2/26
AG
Wasn't Chevrolet originally considered the "entry level" of their brands?

Then it was Pontiac, followed by Oldsmobile, then to Buick, and finally Cadillac?
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malenurse
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2:04p, 5/2/26
AG
Amazing, but sad, what happened to Oldsmobile. In the 60's and 70's they were the number 3 nameplate in sales behind Chevy and Ford.

Now they're gone.
The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But, it's still on the list.
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lexofer
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2:48p, 5/2/26
AG
Chevelle is the true muscle car of the group. Midsize car with a big engine.

Camaro is a pony car, made to compete with the Mustang. Smaller car with midsize engine although special versions with large engines. Best handling.

Nova was the cheap one, not many features but could be ordered with a large engine.

Impala was a big cruising car. Made for comfort not performance.
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TxSquarebody
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In reply to lexofer • 2:54p, 5/2/26
Except for the 62 Impala SS with the available 409. Perhaps still a "cruiser", but it was the muscle of its time.
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lb3
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4:19p, 5/2/26
AG
The 396 Chevelle was pretty raw but one of the hottest of the bunch.
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CactusThomas
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In reply to lexofer • 4:22p, 5/2/26
AG
lexofer said:
Chevelle is the true muscle car of the group. Midsize car with a big engine.

Camaro is a pony car, made to compete with the Mustang. Smaller car with midsize engine although special versions with large engines. Best handling.

Nova was the cheap one, not many features but could be ordered with a large engine.

Impala was a big cruising car. Made for comfort not performance.


This seems like a good explanation
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Buck Turgidson
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In reply to malenurse • 8:43p, 5/2/26
malenurse said:
Amazing, but sad, what happened to Oldsmobile. In the 60's and 70's they were the number 3 nameplate in sales behind Chevy and Ford.

Now they're gone.

The Olds Cutlass was a top selling car for years during the 70's and early 80's. They kinda hit a sweet spot with the design back then.

Here's how the Oldsmobile Cutlass became America's best selling car
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drumboy
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10:09p, 5/2/26
AG
First car was a 71 Buick Skylark with a GS hood. Not as common as a Chevelle but I'd love to get a GS someday.
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BrazosDog02
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10:28p, 5/2/26
AG
When my dad bought our 1970 442, he said "well, my 66 Chevelle had gotten stolen and I needed a family car."

He had a 66 SS 396 that got stolen.

So I guess Olds was the obvious choice?
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maroon barchetta
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11:17p, 5/2/26
In high school i drove a '63 Impala with a 327. It was a beast.
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maroon barchetta
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11:17p, 5/2/26
Also, y'all don't forget the Malibu.
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Gunny456
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In reply to Buck Turgidson • 11:59p, 5/2/26
AG
I can tell the age of posters on this thread by replies.

In the 1960's and 1970's GM used a letter based classification to designate body style/structure/size across its brands of Chevrolet, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, and Buick. Within these classifications their was various engine choices and performance trim packages...mainly due to the performance engines being offered at the time.

The GM "A-Body" was the Chevy Chevelle, Pontiac GTO/LeMans, Olds Cutlass, and Buick Skylark/GS.
They were marketed to compete against the Ford Torino and Plymouth and Dodge "B-body" (Plymouth and Dodge body designations were different than GM) being the Road Runner and variants, and the Dodge Charger and variants.
Depending on performance engine choices and performance trim packages would designate them as considered "muscle cars".

The GM "B-Body" was the Chevrolet Impala, Pontiac Catalina/Bonneville, Olds Delta 88, and Buick Wildcat or Lesabre. These were marketed to compete against Plymouth Fury, Dodge Coronet variants and Ford Thunderbird and Galaxy.
Again, performance high HP engine options and performance trim packages could put the above in a "muscle car" category.

The GM "F-Body" was the Pontiac Firebird/Trans Am and Chevrolet Camaro. Designated as "pony cars" they were marketed against the Ford Mustang and variants and the Plymouth Barracuda and Dodge Challenger.
Again, certain performance engine options and performance trim packages would put them in the muscle car category.

The GM "X-Body" was the Chevrolet Nova, Pontiac Ventura, Olds Omega. They were to compete against the Dodge Demon and Plymouth Duster as "compact cars". Same as above, some models offered high performance engine and trim packages that would put them in the muscle car category.

Regardless, John DeLorean of then General Motors, is credited of being the father of the muscle car era with the introduction of the 1964 GTO variant of the then LeMans of Pontiac.

TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
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1agswitchin4lanes
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In reply to malenurse • 12:36a, 5/3/26
AG
malenurse said:
Amazing, but sad, what happened to Oldsmobile. In the 60's and 70's they were the number 3 nameplate in sales behind Chevy and Ford.

Now they're gone.


Agreed. I loved Oldsmobile cars. Then badge engineering happened.
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Gunny456
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In reply to maroon barchetta • 12:37a, 5/3/26
AG
The 1963 Impala had two 327 engine options. One was the 250Hp and one was 300Hp. Both had 4-barrel carbs but the 300Hp had larger valves and a larger Carter four barrel to get the extra 50HP. I got my butt handed to me one night racing a fellow high school guy that had a 63 Impala with a then available 409 that came from Chevy making 425HP. It was badged as having a 327...so I got suckered. I had a 1967 Pontiac GTO with a 400 making 360HP.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
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maroon barchetta
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In reply to Gunny456 • 1:22a, 5/3/26
I had the 300hp with the Carter.

I would love to have one of those cars again.
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malenurse
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In reply to Gunny456 • 7:20a, 5/3/26
AG
Gunny,

My dad was an Oldsmobile Dealer for 44 years. I was fully immersed in GM culture. I saw once great companies mismanaged beyond comprehension.
The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But, it's still on the list.
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1agswitchin4lanes
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In reply to malenurse • 7:29a, 5/3/26
AG
malenurse said:
Gunny,

My dad was an Oldsmobile Dealer for 44 years. I was fully immersed in GM culture. I saw once great companies mismanaged beyond comprehension.


Wow! What city was the dealership in?
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malenurse
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In reply to 1agswitchin4lanes • 7:39a, 5/3/26
AG
Rosenberg.

Purchased the Olds franchise in 1954. Added Dodge in mid 80's and then Chevy in '89 or '90.

Dad passed in '93 and my brother and I ran the business and sold it in '96.

It's changed names a couple of times. Now owned by Finnigan. Of course Olds is long gone now.

ETA: I still have this....
The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But, it's still on the list.
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Rattler12
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8:06a, 5/3/26
We had an old man in his early 90's where I was raised that back in 65 or so was going to Houston and his car broke down around Hallettsville. He went into an Olds dealership and bought a 65 2 dr hdtp 442 with the 425 cu in engine, bucket, seats center console and trans shifter. Every teenager in that area wanted that car and old man Harper never drove it over 20 mph
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Gunny456
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In reply to malenurse • 8:32a, 5/3/26
AG
Wow. Cool story and lots of history there!
I'm sure you have tons of experiences!
My best friend and best man at my wedding had a 442. Our old vet had a Hurst addition.
Very cool on you still having the 442.
Wife, my dad and I with some wonderful help of some friends did a complete frame off restoration a numbers matching 1970 GTO Judge. It was my dream car in high school I never could afford.
I do still have it, but she's a trailer queen.

TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
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Rattler12
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In reply to Gunny456 • 9:27a, 5/3/26
Gunny456 said:
Wow. Cool story and lots of history there!
I'm sure you have tons of experiences!
My best friend and best man at my wedding had a 442. Our old vet had a Hurst addition.
Very cool on you still having the 442.
Wife, my dad and I with some wonderful help of some friends did a complete frame off restoration a numbers matching 1970 GTO Judge. It was my dream car in high school I never could afford.
I do still have it, but she's a trailer queen.


You sir are guilty of muscle car abuse and neglect......get that gal off the trailer and out on the street and burn some rubber like she was built for....there needs to be some "Muscle Car Protection Agency" to prevent that trailer queen stuff from happening........
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Corps_Ag12
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In reply to malenurse • 9:33a, 5/3/26
AG
Just out of curiosity, why did you get out of the dealership business?
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scd88
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9:39a, 5/3/26
AG
That era of cars was fantastic. I nearly bought a 1964 Riviera last week as it was priced nicely but had to much rust and an oil leak. I love those old Riviera's.

But they're too complicated to get parts for a work on. I've been advised to look into more standard muscle cars as my first one such as the Chevelle or Mustang.

My first choice would be a 68-72 Cutlass. I'm jealous of malenurse and his convertible. Haha.
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malenurse
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In reply to Corps_Ag12 • 9:46a, 5/3/26
AG
Corps_Ag12 said:
Just out of curiosity, why did you get out of the dealership business?

It's a really long story and I don't want to tie up this thread.

Quick answer - money, rising property taxes, proliferation of large corps buying multiple locations, etc, etc

My wife and I also owned a Hallmark Store in Sugar Land and I wanted to spend more time there.

The perks of owning a dealership are great. But the time, money and stress involved made me want out.
The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But, it's still on the list.
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malenurse
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In reply to scd88 • 9:48a, 5/3/26
AG
scd88 said:
That era of cars was fantastic. I nearly bought a 1964 Riviera last week as it was priced nicely but had to much rust and an oil leak. I love those old Riviera's.

But they're too complicated to get parts for a work on. I've been advised to look into more standard muscle cars as my first one such as the Chevelle or Mustang.

My first choice would be a 68-72 Cutlass. I'm jealous of malenurse and his convertible. Haha.

If I were to ever get another classic car, it would be a 1966 Olds Toronado.
The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But, it's still on the list.
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scd88
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In reply to malenurse • 9:56a, 5/3/26
AG
That's very specific!
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Buck Turgidson
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In reply to Gunny456 • 10:08a, 5/3/26
I love the looks of the GTO Judge.
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malenurse
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In reply to scd88 • 10:12a, 5/3/26
AG
Growing up in a car family, certain models and years hold special memories.
The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But, it's still on the list.
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scd88
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In reply to malenurse • 10:17a, 5/3/26
AG
malenurse said:
Growing up in a car family, certain models and years hold special memories.


https://classics.autotrader.com/classic-cars-for-sale/1966-oldsmobile-toronado-for-sale

Beautiful!
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Gunny456
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In reply to Rattler12 • 11:23a, 5/3/26
AG
You sir speak true wisdom!
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
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1agswitchin4lanes
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In reply to malenurse • 11:52a, 5/3/26
AG
malenurse said:
Rosenberg.

Purchased the Olds franchise in 1954. Added Dodge in mid 80's and then Chevy in '89 or '90.

Dad passed in '93 and my brother and I ran the business and sold it in '96.

It's changed names a couple of times. Now owned by Finnigan. Of course Olds is long gone now.

ETA: I still have this....


Wow! That's such a cool story! Beautiful ride too!

How's she drive???
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