I know nothing about the fall of Rhodesia, but became interested after listening to the exploits of James Reese in the Jack Carr Terminal List series. Is there a good documentary or book that you may have seen about the fall of Rhodesia. I see it trending on X this morning as a strong precursor to the fate of South Africa.
Rhodesia info?
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Last: 3 days ago by RGV AG
How, exactly, is it a precursor to anything in South Africa?
That is what I want to know. I don't know much about Rhodesia, but it looks like the Capitalist government, and different races of society were defeated driving the whites and Capitalists out of the country. The bush wars were impactful and the country of Rhodesia became Zimbabwe. (At least this is my limited understanding of it.)
The tweets drew a parallel to what is happening in South Africa and I wanted to research it further. I thought that somebody might be able to correct me or steer me in the right direction.
The tweets drew a parallel to what is happening in South Africa and I wanted to research it further. I thought that somebody might be able to correct me or steer me in the right direction.
Rhodesia is a difficult topic because there's a lot of mythologizing around it and a lot of extremely loaded assumptions and claims around race coupled with poor archival material for the African side of the conflict. Fighting for Time is the only good, comprehensive history of the Bush War that I've seen.
If you like historical fiction, Wilbur Smith has a set of books called the Ballantyne series that traces an English family's existence from colonization through at least the Boer wars. My father's side of the family moved there from England in the early 1900s as missionaries. My grandfather's generation was the last one born there.
Ian Smith's book "The Great Betrayal" might be a start. Will Tanner has written on it extensively. It's an under-studied chapter in history, imho, thx for posting. The short answer is Jimmy Carter (and his idiotic advisor Andy Young) is one of the villains of our history that created death/destruction wherever he had impact on the world.
Quote:
While Carter is best known for his infamous "malaise" speech,6 the highly destructive inflation seen under his presidency,7 his imbecilic and disastrous detente policy,8 and the Iran hostage disaster,9 it is really the Rhodesian tragedy that I think best characterizes his presidency, for it combines all of his worst qualities that are seen only in pieces in the other matters.
Namely, it shows him to be a coward who was uninterested in addressing reality if reality required doing the difficult thing rather than one popular with the crowd he saw as moral, which is to say the Civil Rights lobby.
Elements of that could be seen throughout his trainwreck of a presidency. Inflation, for example, raged on far longer than it needed to because Carter was unwilling to handle it with due decisiveness;10 it wasn't until Volker and Reagan broke its back that the inflation crisis ended many years after it began. Similarly, the Iran hostage crisis showed him to be a coward unwilling to use force to achieve noble ends, even if American lives were at risk, a view suggested by his detente policy as well. Notably, the Iranians were scared of Reagan and backed down as soon as he was inaugurated.11Further, his love of "The Civil Rights Movement" and its objectives, an aspect of his presidency that haunted the Rhodesians, led not just to the solidification of a long-term DEI albatross for America but to an immense spike in crime over his 1977-81 presidency, as shown
More at the link(s).Quote:
Predictably, Carter's friend Andy Young was involved in that, demanding American foreign policy be informed by the civil rights movement. As the same author notes:24In other words, because Ian Smith and the Rhodesians rejected the doctrine of egalitarianism,25 Carter chose, at the behest of Andy Young, to destroy them. Young, admitting as much yet again, said, "He knows very clearly the evils and dangers of racism, and he also knows that racists can change."26Quote:
Young briefed Carter on southern African issues: "I said that basically it boils down to 'one man, one vote.' And . . . he [Carter] said, 'Well, that's not much different from what we had to go through.' I said, 'Nowell, it's the same problem, but there are probably lots of differences but it boils down to the same issue.'" Not only was the fundamental issue analogous, but the protagonists were, too: "Some people say that people are not the same, but they are," Young told the Nation of Islam paper, Bilalian News. "I know Ian Smith and [South African prime minister] John Vorster. I learned about such men at my mother's knee." Vice President Walter Mondale summed it up: "The analogy with the civil rights movement informed everything we did in southern Africa."
And, as the book's author notes, that hatred of "racism" meant Carter was willing to overlook communism:27There are countless other quotes from Carter, Young, and the historians who have examined their policy in the years since they enabled white genocide in Southern Africa.28 Repeating them would be tedious, so I won't do it, as the central lesson has been shown: Carter knew Rhodesia was a free and stable bulwark against communism, yet chose to knowingly aid communist rebels and destroy it anyway because he was worried about "racism" more than communism or country-scale disaster.Quote:
Viewing the struggle from this perspective enabled Carter to look beyond the communist rhetoric of the black leaders fighting against the racist Rhodesian government and acknowledge that they, like the civil rights activists in the US South, were fighting for basic human rights.
That is a telling summation of the man's virtue, or more accurately lack thereof. Further, it shows what his presidency, and indeed American policy throughout that sorry chapter of the Cold War, was about.
Thank you all for posting. When I was first listening to the James Reese books by Jack Carr and Rhodesia was mentioned, I started looking at it a little bit and wondered why I had never heard of the country's history. One of the best dogs I ever had was a Rhodesian ridgeback that walked up as a stray puppy one day, so I knew that it was a real place. I just never knew about it's demise as an African nation, and then I saw it trending yesterday on twitter. I will definitely be doing some research on all of this. I am interested to learn about the bush wars.
You're taking Ian Smith at his word? Lol.
And this,
And this,
is complete bull***** Rhodesia was hardly free for the vast majority of its population and very clearly not stable at any point during its history.Quote:
Rhodesia was a free and stable bulwark against communism
We almost never agree and I won't make this a pedantic discussion, or try to convince you of my thoughts being right.
I provided links I have found interesting to the OP. Unfortunately, the communists/marxism won in Rhodesia, eventually (with our support).
It's a sad history, which I think more should take seriously/study.
I provided links I have found interesting to the OP. Unfortunately, the communists/marxism won in Rhodesia, eventually (with our support).
It's a sad history, which I think more should take seriously/study.
Rhodesia is a warning to the West about what happens if we don’t win pic.twitter.com/cUmrRndUN7
— Smash Baals (@smashbaals) May 13, 2025
Zimbabwe's hospitals are in a catastrophically bad state, and it's not hard to imagine they'll soon revert to witch doctors
— Will Tanner (@Will_Tanner_1) May 7, 2025
On the other hand, Rhodesia's hospitals were excellent, even during the height of the Bush War. Here's how Dr. Theodore Dalrymple described it:
"I… pic.twitter.com/TfevnB6Zb5
You promoted the self-serving autobiography of one totalitarian as the starting point for learning about an extremely complicated conflict. It's a good thing that Smith and his racist thugs lost. It's a bad thing they lost to Mugabe.
I just am glad we can agree the marxists/communists winning was unfortunate, but won't play "it's racist to disagree…" game.
It's a very sad history.
It's a very sad history.
Sapper, you can deny that things were better as Rhodesia rather than as Zim? For all people?
oldord said:
Sapper, you can deny that things were better as Rhodesia rather than as Zim? For all people?
Wanna guess why Mugabe wound up as the only alternative rather than a number of more moderate African groups? Guess who the Rhodesians targeted?
Mugabe was what the white Rhodesians wanted as their opponent precisely so they could claim, "well, we aren't bad compared to them."
I don't think Carter was a good president, but you do know that he, not Reagan, hired Volcker, right?
Carter also negotiated the Iran hostage's release, Iran just held them til Reagan was inaugurated out of spite.
And the inflation of the 70's started under Nixon.
And I've barely gotten into your quoted posts. Sounds like a book full of bullcrap.
Carter also negotiated the Iran hostage's release, Iran just held them til Reagan was inaugurated out of spite.
And the inflation of the 70's started under Nixon.
And I've barely gotten into your quoted posts. Sounds like a book full of bullcrap.
Thanks and gig'em
And Nixon (not Carter like so many blame) gave us the 55 mph speed limits.Aggie_Journalist said:
I don't think Carter was a good president, but you do know that he, not Reagan, hired Volcker, right?
Carter also negotiated the Iran hostage's release, Iran just held them til Reagan was inaugurated out of spite.
And the inflation of the 70's started under Nixon.
And I've barely gotten into your quoted posts. Sounds like a book full of bullcrap.
And let's not forget Ford fighting inflation with buttons!
Thanks and gig'em
Sapper Redux said:
How, exactly, is it a precursor to anything in South Africa?
Race-based uncompensated land redistribution as government policy, intimidation of white farmers through murder/rape, a blind eye by the western liberals and press.
Rhodesia vs Zimbabwe is the wrong question. It's Zimbabwe vs Botswana. The terrible governance and oppression of Rhodesia is what led to Mugabe and Zimbabwe and denied a potential path towards something like what Botswana has done with 30+ years of GDP growth greater than 10%
%2C_%25_of_world_average%2C_1960-2012%3B_Zimbabwe%2C_South_Africa%2C_Botswana%2C_Zambia%2C_Mozambique.png)
P.H. Dexippus said:Sapper Redux said:
How, exactly, is it a precursor to anything in South Africa?
Race-based uncompensated land redistribution as government policy, intimidation of white farmers through murder/rape, a blind eye by the western liberals and press.
Ah, so you buy propaganda.
You did not answer the question
Supper, lets pretend you moved to Zimbabwe next week. How long do you feel like your feelings would last.? You're also not allowed to move back.
Rhodesia was conquered by the communists with the help of America. Andrew Young and Jimmy Carter, specifically. Evil, vain and stupid men. A deadly combination.
South Africa was betrayed from within. It's a complete disaster at this point.Quote:
While Kissinger had forbidden his small team working on Rhodesia to circulate their cables, Vance encouraged all U.S. ambassadors in Africa and the Africa desk at the State Department to always copy to each other, creating an early listserv. Everyone was in the loop, and they all contributed to the policy.
Additionally, a joint team of British and U.S. diplomats, headed on the American side by Andrew Young, repeatedly toured southern Africa to mediate among the guerrilla factions and the Smith government. Secretary of State Vance and British foreign secretary David Owen also toured Africa and hosted the parties in London and Washington, in search of a solution.
This was the U.S. government's first exposure to Mugabe. Kissinger admitted, after his Africa tour, that he did not even know who Mugabe was. The Carter team, on the other hand, opened direct negotiations with him, as with the other guerrilla leaders.
In the history of U.S. foreign policy, this was extraordinary. What other Cold War president had directly negotiated with Communist-backed guerrillas? Carter himself refused to allow negotiations with the Sandinistas in Nicaragua until the fall of the Somoza dictatorship was imminent. Nor did he open direct negotiations with the anti-shah dissidents in Iran. But Rhodesia was different. Why?
In part because Carter framed the war there in terms of the U.S. civil rights struggle. The analogy was inaccurate, but useful. It allowed Carter to see the Rhodesian guerrillas as freedom fighters against injustice rather than communist proxies. It also gave him courage when the negotiations stalled, which they did frequently. Carter was steadfast in his belief that change racial justice would transform Rhodesia just as it had the U.S. South, and that it would benefit blacks and whites alike.
Framing the war as a liberation struggle allowed Carter to pursue an unusual course in U.S. diplomacy. Rather than chase an elusive "moderate center," the Carter administration sought peace in Rhodesia through truly free, democratic elections. Peace would close the door on the opportunity for the Soviets and Cubans to intervene, and peace could only be achieved, Washington believed, through elections that were transparently fair.
This was the goal of Carter's diplomacy in Zimbabwe. "I spent more effort and worry on Rhodesia than I did on the Middle East," Carter told me. It bore fruit: It laid the groundwork for the Lancaster House conference in 1979, when the parties finally agreed to a peace settlement and free elections. When those elections were held, Mugabe won in a landslide.
oldord said:
Supper, lets pretend you moved to Zimbabwe next week. How long do you feel like your feelings would last.? You're also not allowed to move back.
What feelings? The history is pretty clear. The white Rhodesians created a racist state that actively suppressed moderate African opposition and attempted to make their struggle into a "west vs USSR" dichotomy to force support from Britain and the U.S. for their apartheid state. It failed. Because of their actions the only viable opposition were extremists under Mugabe. No one is saying Mugabe was good. Rhodesia was also an extremist ****stain of a government.
Big fan of apartheid states?
I can see you are (still) a big fan of calling others racist. I'll pass on reacting as you hope, again.Sapper Redux said:
Big fan of apartheid states?
You never directly answer anything.
Obviously, you can't because there's no way in hell you would ever go live in Zimbabwe
But you will preach that everyone that is not you is going to hell with your fervent religious intensity of leftism
Obviously, you can't because there's no way in hell you would ever go live in Zimbabwe
But you will preach that everyone that is not you is going to hell with your fervent religious intensity of leftism
I can never read this thread without hearing "Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner" playing in my head!
You're an excitable boy.
Pretty cool song about the bush war:
oldord said:
You never directly answer anything.
Obviously, you can't because there's no way in hell you would ever go live in Zimbabwe
But you will preach that everyone that is not you is going to hell with your fervent religious intensity of leftism
If you read accounts of people who lived there, they greatly preferred Zimbabwe until around 2000. You can't acknowledge just how awful the racists in charge of Rhodesia were for most residents.
nortex97 said:I can see you are (still) a big fan of calling others racist. I'll pass on reacting as you hope, again.Sapper Redux said:
Big fan of apartheid states?
You keep defending apartheid states. Why?
No, I'm not. I lament that communists/marxists have won in very tragic circumstances historically, to destroy/kill people. It's lamentable that you defend the victors and their supporters, imho. I think March 14th should be a holiday celebrated globally.Sapper Redux said:You keep defending apartheid states. Why?nortex97 said:I can see you are (still) a big fan of calling others racist. I'll pass on reacting as you hope, again.Sapper Redux said:
Big fan of apartheid states?
ETA: South Africa is living down to Mandela's violent Marxist dreams.
What's really going on in South Africa? 🇿🇦
— Outpost (@OutpostStudios) May 27, 2025
We went to speak with the victims of farm attacks, to uncover the real stories behind the global headlines and see the devastation this brutal violence is leaving.
By @jaglancy and @alexmaccaroon pic.twitter.com/zxXyHeZaUz
And you keep embracing the narratives spewed by the apartheid states. Interesting.
Quote:
You're an excitable boy.
Nothing that Lawyers, Guns, and Money couldn't fix.
"More British than the British" is a funny moniker. A world run by egalitarian elitists is what has always appealed to the left, not just their hero Marx. Undoubtedly a history more would benefit from studying.
Quote:
The goal of the American apparatchiks wasn't defeating the communists abroad, nor was it really to contain them. Rather, as the general trend of the century shows and the CIA report makes clear, it was to bash apart the old centers of power and replace them with something egalitarian, something that remains the goal of the powers that be.
Hence why Smith was derided by the CIA and the Mugabe-led rebels supported by it.
Smith, in his wearing of a well-tailored suit, anti-communist rhetoric, status as a major landowner, and general worldview, was very much a man of the Old World. He acted as an African-bred version of a British gentleman at a time when the British were at their height, a time when England still valued natural hierarchy and ordered liberty, the very things he fought for in Rhodesia and would have kept alive if he won. Given that egalitarian America, whether under an outright leftist like Carter or secret ones like all of the Republicans, hated those values, Smith was hated as well and derided by the CIA.
Mugabe, on the other hand, was quite the opposite. He was a communist rebel, a man like the leftist-loved Malcolm X who was ready and willing to use violence against "white oppression," by which he meant enforcement of basic pro-civilization policies. He wanted to expropriate without compensation the property of successful whites, the very thing the high-death tax British and Americans were spending all of the Progressive years doing. And he spoke the language of "equity" and "fairness," which the Civil Rights-mad US loved.
And so the CIA gave the pinkos in the American government all the rhetorical tools they needed to further attack the Ian Smith government and aid his communist enemies. It covered for their communist beliefs and covered up their atrocities, making them out to be mild-mannered and fair-minded agents of democratic change and hiding from those reading the report the signal fact that they were communists who tortured and murdered black and white Rhodesians alike. It slandered Smith and his government, downplaying their notable successes and pretending the one functional, non-apartheid in Africa was a "white supremacist" government so that it would be hated.
Rhodesia didn't have to die. It stood for what the West stood for up until the disastrous 20th century: Liberty. Prosperity. Hierarchy. Those were key ingredients of what made the West special. When the British and Americans, along with the supposedly free states of the Continent, left them behind to chase egalitarianism, the Rhodesians stood by what used to exist because they rightly saw it as better.
But by the time it took a firm stand to do so, the powers that be were already at its throat, their egalitarianism having gone systemic and leading them to once again side with the communists to destroy one of the last real remnants of the Old World, of the freer older order. And so it was defeated, falling after a 15-year effort against rebels backed by nearly the whole world, including the lying CIA.
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