Kitchen Remodel

1,257 Views | 15 Replies | Last: 2 hrs ago by Sea Speed
agracer
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AG
anyone tried to tackle this on your own.

Not from a build everything perspective, but from a source cabinets to install yourself, sub out electrical and plumbing work and maybe some other items? Would have a local place do the countertops = they did our bathroom and just came out when the cabinets were finished and did a 3D scan an cut everything to fit perfectly into the space.

Got a rough estimate to redo our kitchen and it was about 2x what I thought it would be.

We are re-configuring our layout, but out basement is not finished so moving elec and plumbing is easy (obviously not free, but not hard either - no ceiling or flooring to remove and replace). Only new appliance is a larger cooktop and hood. Going to reuse the oven/microwave.
Caliber
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I did it 2 years ago. Studs up, including moving a wall. I did the electrical and plumbing but would have been easy enough to sub those out during the process.

Designed my build around standard cabinet sizes (leave gap space on the ends for filler strips for any out of square issues) so that I could get it done faster. Ordered quality wood cabinets pre built over custom.

I planned it pretty well so that I pretty much always had the range and sink available except for the weekend I replaced those cabinets. I was able to kinda do it piecemeal in a way. I used plywood as temp counters until i got it all to the point it was ready for permanent installs.

Counters were done by others. I did flooring and backsplash as well.

It will take longer than having it done turnkey, and likely longer than you plan, but it is doable if you are handy.

My warmup for this was a master bath remodel, which I think turned out was harder in many respects.

tgivaughn
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AG
Yikes
A one man shop - wait on me design/build guy would be my first call.
Hoping he also had a stain/paint finisher in the family.

Cabinets are the #1 wait & pay out the nose complaint when building a new or remodeling a house UGH
Good luck
UGH
Ours will have to rot off the walls & floor, just sayin'
Deciphering tools below = Why I Draw pictures for a living
http://pages.suddenlink.net/tgivaughn/
AEP Ag
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I have gradually remodeled my entire 1970's house this way. It definitely takes MUCH longer if you do it yourself but I have found it to be significantly cheaper. My dad was an electrician ,my FIL is a handyman and this is my third house to DIY so I have advantages. But there is so much about remodeling that can absolutely be done by the homeowner.

I have built up a networks of subcontractors that know my craziness and as long as I am willing to wait for an off day they will come do partial installs for me. So I had to wait on my plumber for two weeks but he ran PEX and new drain lines for 800 sq fr for around $300 total (I had the supplies already )

Before I started I turned our guest room into an almost full kitchen. Hot pot, microwave, countertop stove. The guest bathroom was the sink. It wasn't great but my wife tolerated it for the two FULL months it took me.

I would never attempt to build my own house but if you have a knack for craftsmanship and your family has the patience it can be very rewarding. But after a long day at work you better be excited to then work 3-5 hours in the evening on your remodel or it will never get done.

One other advantage of DIY is that I can control the waste/dust. I always set up plastic and completely air seal the remodel space with exhaust to the outside and giant air filter in the space. This has allowed us to live in the houses without any issues during remodel. But no contractor is going to make that level of dust detail effort without big $$.

It isn't as easy as YouTube makes it look but if you have the persistence and time it can be done.
Caliber
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AG
AEP Ag said:

I would never attempt to build my own house but if you have a knack for craftsmanship and your family has the patience it can be very rewarding. But after a long day at work you better be excited to then work 3-5 hours in the evening on your remodel or it will never get done.

This is definitely a big one. You need to have the mindset that you need to get in their everyday and do SOMETHING at least, and usually you'll find yourself keep going after starting.

The biggest thing that helped me was to plan out a complete task list, breaking things down into the smallest reasonable task level increments. Then make sure you put in what has prerequisites and what can be done at any time. Having a defined list with small tasks makes it easy to know what needs to be done (and what you might need to buy!) instead of saying something would be too big to start in an evening vs weekend. That list also helps show progress so you don't think you're not getting anywhere.

The list/plan allows you to think about everything you're doing and catch things you might not think about immediately. Put in the questions that you might not be able to answer until things get torn out so that you remember to check. Take notes and update as you go. Having a list of to-do's that you don't have to wait around for can be a huge thing while waiting on a sub to come and do something else.


drummer0415
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AG
I can provide some insight on cost, as I have literally been building my own kitchen myself over an extended period of time (not gonna say how long but longer than most people would be ok with). And I don't mean GC it myself, I mean literally doing all of the work myself.

Demo down everything down to studs

Relocate and/or add plumbing and electrical as needed. This included adding a gas line for range, exhaust duct for vent hood, moving water lines for fridge, all new water lines at sink, adding counter height outlets everywhere, adding electrical in upper cabinets for under cabinet lighting, etc.

Rebuild walls including cement backer board as needed for backsplash stone/tile

Add dimmable LED recessed lighting over entire kitchen

Build, paint, and install all of my own cabinetry. Baltic birch ply for cabinet boxes, solid maple drawers with Blum soft close undermount sliders, spice rack pullouts, Sherwin Williams Emerald enamel paint. Upper cabinets go all the to the ceiling, etc. Very nice stuff. No expense spared here.

Install kitchen sink, faucet, disposal, all undersink plumbing, etc.

Install under cabinet lighting

Install Mable stacked stone/ledger stone and marble tile backsplash on two walls (one wall has upper cabinets so the stone stops there, one wall it goes all the way up to the ceiling)

Caulk in cabinets and countertops, paint walls and trim wherever as needed, etc.

Literally all the work myself, except for one thing. The only scope of work in the entire kitchen that I didn't personally do was fabricate and install the granite countertops. We went to a yard, picked the exact slabs we wanted, then paid a fabricator to fabricate and install them.

The reason I'm listing all this out and emphasizing the fact that I did it all myself is not to brag at all. It's been a very long process and most people would not be happy with how long this has taken me. It's to make the following point below about how much these types of projects cost.


I've been keeping a very detailed spreadsheet of costs, broken down by category. My total cost so far, with me doing literally all of the work, including building the cabinets which is by far the biggest expense of any kitchen, I'm right at $23.5k, and I still have a little bit of work left to do. I'm estimating/expecting that I will finish up right at $25k. And because appliances can wildly impact the cost of a kitchen renovation, I will clarify that number only includes the new stove/range, and the vent hood that goes above it. That's it. We reused all other appliances in the kitchen.

So I say all that to say this. If it cost me ~$25k to renovate and build an entire kitchen and not even include all new appliances, Imagine how much it costs to pay other people to do it. If one were to tackle my same project by being the GC themselves, purchase pre made cabinets, pay subs to do the work, etc, I can still easily see it being 2x my cost, or around ~$50k. If one were to pay a GC for a turnkey finished project, I would imagine it would come in closer to 3x my cost.

Again, I'm not saying any of this to brag, I'm just trying to say most people just don't realize how much this stuff costs, or they just think everything should cost pre covid prices. Even with my project as a case study and self performing the most amount of work possible, it's still VERY EXPENSIVE.





drummer0415
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AEP Ag said:

I have gradually remodeled my entire 1970's house this way. It definitely takes MUCH longer if you do it yourself but I have found it to be significantly cheaper. My dad was an electrician ,my FIL is a handyman and this is my third house to DIY so I have advantages. But there is so much about remodeling that can absolutely be done by the homeowner.

I have built up a networks of subcontractors that know my craziness and as long as I am willing to wait for an off day they will come do partial installs for me. So I had to wait on my plumber for two weeks but he ran PEX and new drain lines for 800 sq fr for around $300 total (I had the supplies already )

Before I started I turned our guest room into an almost full kitchen. Hot pot, microwave, countertop stove. The guest bathroom was the sink. It wasn't great but my wife tolerated it for the two FULL months it took me.

I would never attempt to build my own house but if you have a knack for craftsmanship and your family has the patience it can be very rewarding. But after a long day at work you better be excited to then work 3-5 hours in the evening on your remodel or it will never get done.

One other advantage of DIY is that I can control the waste/dust. I always set up plastic and completely air seal the remodel space with exhaust to the outside and giant air filter in the space. This has allowed us to live in the houses without any issues during remodel. But no contractor is going to make that level of dust detail effort without big $$.

It isn't as easy as YouTube makes it look but if you have the persistence and time it can be done.


I will follow up my post above by saying this post is a very good take/input on a project like this, especially the part I bolded. It can and will be absolute grind. It just feels like there's a cloud over your head all the time.

I'm almost done with my project, so I'm seeing light at the end of the tunnel, but it's been a long road with some not fun times.
agracer
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AG
Thanks for the replies.

I am pretty handy and do almost all house stuff myself. Wife was all "no, we need a professional!!!", then she saw the cost and was all, "can son #3 help you do this?"

My middle son actually has a BS in Architectural Science - Woodworking...basically a BS in woodshop! He builds all kinds of stuff for his mom and helped me build cabinets for the garage. He said he's help me, but it would be limited to weekends. He even framed houses as a summer job while in college. He does now have some of my tools (Track Saw, Table Saw, miter saw).

Demo - We can do that. I've considered relocating some of the cabinets to the basement, but the layout really doesn't work great so those might go to charity (I need to find it, but in our church bulletin there was an advert for a charity that will come take your cabinets to re-purpose them - would be a good way to avoid a dumpster). Habitat for Humanity will also do this. I could get all the elec/plumbing out of the way and let them remove and take it out.

Cabinets - would for sure have a shop do the layout and assemble those and I would install with my son. Would be easier than trying to build myself.

Plumbing - would talk to guy I've used in the past. I can do simple stuff, but would prefer a pro relocate the gas lines and hot/cold water lines. He could do in a few hours what what would take me forever, and mine might leak!

Electrical - I can do that. The wires all come from the exposed basement ceiling so moving that around would be pretty easy.

Tile Backsplash - I can also do that.

Vent hood - never done one of these, I'd have to do some research to see how it would all work, but there is a clear path to the outside from where I'm going to place the new cooktop. Old one is on a island and downdraft.

Wood Floor - kitchen has a wood floor and I've confirmed it extends under all existing cabinets. We are reconfiguring the kitchen layout so those would have to be sanded and finished where they old unfinished floors would now be exposed. I used a good place in the past to extend my kitchen floors into the front room and they did a great job. I could combine the floor re-finish with extending the wood floors into the dining room.

I can use the grill to cook most stuff and a microwave. The laundry room is getting re-done first to make room for a fridge and a larger sink. Can also put the existing stove in the basement (I have a spare 220 down there) if it is necessary.

Work Time - I actually have Friday's off and can use those days to work and Saturday/Sunday when my son can help me. Usually have 2-3 evenings a week free (I ref. soccer 2x a week). I also have 40+ hours of PTO to burn (that includes what I already have scheduled) before the end of the year so when major stuff needs to happen I have time available.

Also, good tip about having a "PLAN". So write everything down, process, schedule, etc. or I'd just fall behind and be constantly running to the store to buy stuff and waste more time. Sort of a real task list on what needs to be done when in order for the next task to get done. Also, would help with planning countertop install, sinks, purchase of appliances (could wait for sales and jump on good deals if it works out), scheduling the plumber, etc.
Random Ag
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AG
We did this 3 years ago. Spent approximately $30k and got a $100k kitchen. My husband is extremely handy.
- Removed non load bearing wall, paid for engineers to confirm it wasn't load bearing
- Demo did ourselves including and dumpster rental
- Paid pro to remove asbestos in the floor
- Minor plumbing updates including removing a baseboard heating did ourselves
- Electrical did ourselves
- Minor HVAC rerouting did ourselves
- Paid kitchen designer (not decorator) for a cabinet layout design (this was $ welllllll spent). Husband built cabinets, all oak, and I stained and sealed
- Paid (splurged) for counters
- Installed new subfloor and hardwood to match the rest of the house
- New drywall and insulation, plus backsplash tile, did ourselves
- vent for range hood and hood install
- Medium end appliances including microwave drawer

It took ~6 months start to finish. We put the stove in the garage and put the microwave and fridge in the dining area. Used the grill a fair amount. Washed dishes in basement laundry sink. Stored nearly all the kitchen crap. We had a 2 year old at the time and both worked long hour jobs but spent most off hours on the kitchen.
agracer
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AG
Clarify a few things. We included renovating the laundry room. Laundry has a back door that we never use but takes up wall space. Want to remove the door, put in a window and put in new cabinets on that outside wall and move the basement fridge into the laundry which is behind the kitchen. Include a replacement sink and lower and upper cabinets. Already outlets and water lines on that wall for the replacement sink and fridge.

Also, all my plumbing and electrical comes up from the unfinished basement. Everything is very easy to access, especially the plumbing. First guy flat out said "there won't be much cost saving just replacing your existing layout b/c your basement gives such easy access to the plumbing and electrical. Revising the layout and updating your space will add a lot of value that lots of homes around this area cannot do". My kitchen is open to the front room (I removed a half wall a few years ago when we extended the wood floors into the living room). Most homes in my area have structural walls or a fireplace between the kitchen and living room.

Two bids, both over $100k

First one had $20k for cabinets and was just a ball park number. Contractor said they would do a complete design and a formal hard bid at no cost and no commitment from me until the final numbers are agreed to. We can walk away any time. He did not include the new wood floors in the dining, entry and office. He goes to my church and we've done some retreats together and has a great family. My wife and I go to breakfast with his in-laws (also same church) all the time after mass and we always visit with them after mass.

Second had $40k for full custom cabinets (also said semi-custom would be about half that but just limited on colors and options) and did give me some line item breakdowns but some of them are very dubious. I think his designer just threw some numbers on there from other projects b/c they make no sense.
Plumbing Rough In $3,000 (to demo old stuff and get it ready for new install moving kitchen sink and ready for replacement laundry room sink).
Plumbing Finish $3,650 (this includes $650 for the new fixture in the kitchen and laundry room*)

NFW it will be close to this cost. I had a plumber connect to my exiting NG line and run it to my kitchen up into the existing island and up into the laundry room when I moved in 11 years ago. He was there for maybe 3-hours and was done. A plumber will be at my house for 2-hours AT MOST, to cut the old hot/cold pipes and drains, cap them until it's time to run the new lines/drains and unscrew the NG line and cap it in the basement. Come back when ready to run < 20-feet of copper, new fittings (valves, etc.) and new PVC drain lines and re-rout the NG line to the new cooktop location. Maybe a days worth of work. So, lets just be very generous and add $500 of extra materials to the plumbing scope. You have $650 + $500 + 12 hours of labor…..HTF is that labor $5,500?

Total for electrical rough in and new was $8,750. That included $400 for new pendant lights over the island and some new outlets, switches and other lighting. They will have to tear into the ceiling to move the lighting, but the ceiling patch and paint was a separate line item. So we have 2-guys at my house full time for a full week at $105/hr ? Don't see how it would take that long.

Flooring was $14,000 which honestly seemed a little low considering how much new flooring will be needed.

Demo was $4,500 which I can do myself or have Habitat for Humanity come out and take it (assuming they want it, they have a service that will remove old cabinets to be re-used)

Rest of the numbers honestly did not surprise me or did I think were out of line. But if we do the demo, take out the new flooring in dining/hall/office and go with the non-custom cabinets and cut a few other items the price comes down to $65,000. If I can get some more realistic numbers I might consider using them.

Second guy did my guest bathroom upstairs and did a great job. He reconciled all the costs at the end where we went over allowance he added, where we went under he subtracted. They showed up on time, worked, kept the path to/from the bathroom clean/protected and did a great job. Very pleased with their quality of work.

When the designer came bye last week to review the numbers and talk about samples and colors, she could tell we were sticker shocked and seemed ready to go on her way pretty quickly. I think they do a lot of business in high end homes around my area and people just don't question the numbers. My wife and I both work in construction and are probably a PITA to small contractors.

Also, neither bid included new appliances. We plan to reuse the existing oven and microwave wall unit, but will have a new larger cooktop and vent hood. The countertop numbers included new sinks.

Seriously considering doing this myself and farming out some of the stuff I don't have a lot of experience with (like plumbing and the new exterior work in the laundry room).
1988PA-Aggie
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You sound like you are pretty thorough. So you will be a PITA.

Kidding aside, only talking cabinets now. You had one bid for around $20k, and another for around $40k for custom. Who are you paying for the cabinets? Contractor, designer, a retail place? Because if you are paying someone else rather than a shop directly, you are paying what could be a large markup. I have seen anything from 20% to 100%.

I don't know how important a kitchen is to you, and I don't know how long you plan on staying in this house. But since cabinetry is a big-ticket item, make sure you do your research. Everyone says their cabinetry is great, and in this forum there are widely varying opinions on what is bad, good, or great. Just undermount drawer slides, dovetail drawers, and slow close hinges does make a great cabinet. Those things are industry standards these days. Cabinet construction, the finishing, and what if you have a problem are real issues.

Questions like:
Style - full overlay, partial overlay, or frame/inset
Where are cabinets made? avoid china made
What are the cabinet materials? Ply, mdf, flake core
Shelves? same material
Drawer box wood type? poplar, soft maple, hard maple, and the grade of the wood
Finish - water based? solvent based, if so, precat or post cat conversion varnish, or polyurethane
Drawings (a must) - who does them?
If custom, height and depth of cabinets, backsplash height, etc
Conveniences - organizers, pullouts, racks, etc

I know some people think cabinets are cabinets. But it comes down to how important they are to you and if the extra money is worth it. I just want you to get your best value. Paying a custom shop directly (or just a small percentage to the contractor) may be a way to get more bang for your buck.
Sea Speed
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AG
I haven't done a kitchen besides new backsplash and adding a pot filler but I have done several bathrooms and I absolutely would do this myself. No question. I'm going to do a light remodel on my current kitchen in the near future.
drummer0415
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AG
agracer said:



Two bids, both over $100k








I might be underestimating the value of my kitchen renovation a little bit.
agracer
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AG
1988PA-Aggie said:

You sound like you are pretty thorough. So you will be a PITA.

Kidding aside, only talking cabinets now. You had one bid for around $20k, and another for around $40k for custom. Who are you paying for the cabinets? Contractor, designer, a retail place? Because if you are paying someone else rather than a shop directly, you are paying what could be a large markup. I have seen anything from 20% to 100%.

I don't know how important a kitchen is to you, and I don't know how long you plan on staying in this house. But since cabinetry is a big-ticket item, make sure you do your research. Everyone says their cabinetry is great, and in this forum there are widely varying opinions on what is bad, good, or great. Just undermount drawer slides, dovetail drawers, and slow close hinges does make a great cabinet. Those things are industry standards these days. Cabinet construction, the finishing, and what if you have a problem are real issues.

Questions like:
Style - full overlay, partial overlay, or frame/inset
Where are cabinets made? avoid china made
What are the cabinet materials? Ply, mdf, flake core
Shelves? same material
Drawer box wood type? poplar, soft maple, hard maple, and the grade of the wood
Finish - water based? solvent based, if so, precat or post cat conversion varnish, or polyurethane
Drawings (a must) - who does them?
If custom, height and depth of cabinets, backsplash height, etc
Conveniences - organizers, pullouts, racks, etc

I know some people think cabinets are cabinets. But it comes down to how important they are to you and if the extra money is worth it. I just want you to get your best value. Paying a custom shop directly (or just a small percentage to the contractor) may be a way to get more bang for your buck.


Funny you say that as we looked at some model homes a few weeks back to get ideas. These were NEW homes in the $700K+ price point and that was NOT standard in those kitchens. I was shocked.

Also, the 2nd contractor told me in his experience the two shops he utilizes are on this list b/c he gets zero complaints from his customers with those two and they deliver a good product. Both are local to KC and do everything in-house. Plywood carcass with solid wood shelving, solid wood face fames, and doors and drawer faces, etc. I'm versed in what to look for but thanks for the tips.

Both have local showrooms and shops. I already visited the semi-custom shop and from what I saw, it was good stuff. Going to visit the other next week. Issue is neither sell to the public, only contractors. Not sure I'll be able to talk them into selling to me directly.
agracer
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AG
yeah, like I posted above, some of the break out numbers were just WTF worthy!
Sea Speed
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AG
Of you are using a designer or decorator at all, you may be able to use her to get them. My wife constantly gets business accounts with places like that for her clients.
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