They should have left the ball toss, dropped the plank for the knee tuck, and shortened the run. Then gone back to the three MOS tiers from ACFT 1.0.

Been retired since 2014.
Fastest 2 mile run (1988): 10:50
Last 2 mile run (2013): 12:41

Never got above 85 points on pushups or sit ups.........

Tango.Mike said:

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OldArmyCT said:

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I retired eons ago but the simple 3 station test, push-ups, sit-ups, and 2 mile run, was simple to administer, was gender neutral, required no extra equipment, and flunked out a lot of people who were content to sit behind a typewriter. And it wasn't easy to max...at 40 years old believe one needed 72 push and sit-ups in 2 minutes and a 13:30 2-mile run to get the 300 points. Why does the Army continually reinvent the wheel?

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It most definitely was not gender neutral, and it really didn't test anything other than your ability to take the APFT.

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I've heard this said for decades, yet I never met an "out of shape" person who excelled on the APFT.

I saw plenty of stocky, strong guys who struggled mightily on the run.

People who prioritize fitness will generally do well no matter what the test is.

Tango.Mike said:

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OldArmyCT said:

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I retired eons ago but the simple 3 station test, push-ups, sit-ups, and 2 mile run, was simple to administer, was gender neutral, required no extra equipment, and flunked out a lot of people who were content to sit behind a typewriter. And it wasn't easy to max...at 40 years old believe one needed 72 push and sit-ups in 2 minutes and a 13:30 2-mile run to get the 300 points. Why does the Army continually reinvent the wheel?

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It most definitely was not gender neutral, and it really didn't test anything other than your ability to take the APFT.

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You know the genders had different numbers to hit despite their ages, right? And if it only tested one's ability to take a test why didn't everyone max it?

How many times were you required to run 2 miles in combat? And aside from that, the 2-miles in distance is a very poor measure of fitness physiologically. It misses the mark for VO2max, glycogen pathways, and muscle strength.

Push-ups are a very poor measure of upper body strength. And if you make it a circus by not letting people rest, you aren't even measuring how many push ups they can do in 2 minutes.

Sit ups with your hands locked behind your head is a poor measure of core strength and stability. And if you make it a circus event by not letting people rest you aren't even measuring how many they can do in 2 minutes.

I don't know how saying "I say lots of muscular guys struggle on the run" proves the APFT was a good test of military effectiveness. Kinda the opposite

How can you say the APFT was gender neutral if you admit the standards were wildly different?

Agree with stop wasting money and pick something. And agree that many of the test changes have been designed to make certain audiences believe women can meet male physical standards. I was in GEN Cone's and GEN Perkins's CIG when Kirsten Gillibrand decided that women should be in combat, so I'm aware of the political pressure.

If I was king of the world, I'd make the PT test Murph or Fran or similar from CrossFit

Tango.Mike said:

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Agree with stop wasting money and pick something. And agree that many of the test changes have been designed to make certain audiences believe women can meet male physical standards. I was in GEN Cone's and GEN Perkins's CIG when Kirsten Gillibrand decided that women should be in combat, so I'm aware of the political pressure.

If I was king of the world, I'd make the PT test Murph or Fran or similar from CrossFit

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There are probably fewer than 1 in 20 women in the Army who can do a single pull-up of any type, even a half-down, bent arm kippy pull-up that crossfitters do.

Very few men can do multiple sets of 8-10 over any reasonable time.

You could do a crossfit type thing, but the lowest common denominator (and injuries) drive you away from pull-ups and burpees, etc. not that 30+ years of doing sit-ups did my neck any favors.

I find it interesting that you can serve at any height between 4'10" and 6'8" but there's one physical fitness standard that evaluates everybody.

There aren't weight classes like Boxing, Wrestling, or MMA.

If we look at other situations where people are evaluating "measurables" related to athletic ability, check out the NFL Combine.

In 2025, the fastest 40 yard dash times are:
Cornerback - 4.28
Offensive Lineman - 4.84

In 2025, the max bench press reps (225 lbs) are:
Offensive Lineman - 33
Cornerback - 21

https://www.nfl.com/combine/tracker/live-results/

In my opinion, there should probably be a minimum level of "measurables" achieved to serve in the Army.
And there should probably be a different level of "measurables" for serving in different MOS.

I think back to when I attended Army ROTC Advanced Camp and turned in one of my fastest 2 mile runs ever at 14:45 which was considered slow by Texas A&M expectations. I was standing there for more than five minutes while we waited for a 27 y/o prior enlisted female to finish her "passing" 2 mile run which took her more than 20 minutes to complete.

Point is, I don't know that there is a correct answer but it's also kind of silly to think that all the different types of people we take into the Army are going to have their physical fitness evaluated in any serious way other than to ensure they can achieve very minimum standards - like on civilian job descriptions where you see - must be able to lift 25 lbs, etc.

I could see a system where the requirements are something like:
Must be able to run a 20 minute 2 mile to be a Soldier
Must be able to run a 16 minute 2 mile to be in Combat Arms
Must be able to run a 14 minute 2 mile to be Infantry

Or whatever standards you want to make (I just made those numbers up to illustrate the point)

It probably doesn't make much difference whether the fuel handler filling an Abrams Tank can run to the end of the block and back. But, they definitely need to be able to climb in and out of an 8x8 Fuel HEMMT. Maybe there should be some sort of climbing test for that MOS.

i would think we could develop a solid assessment that didn't require all of the extra equipment. all this deadlift, ball throw, etc is a huge money suck and mad some fitness equipment company very rich

LewisChilds said:

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Starting my 21st year in the Army ruck marching is the physical fitness event that most corresponds to the kind of fitness I needed over 5 combat deployments. Not sure what other events I'd add but 8-12 mile ruck with combat load would be a must to make sure our Soldiers are physically fit enough for the rigors of combat

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Works for some MOS's, but I haven't done a ruck march in 15 years and certainly didn't need to ruck when deployed.

No thanks, I'll just sleep with my feet dangling off the end.

I knew Feltwell and he had some great ideas.