JUST IN: Bishop Martin of Charlotte pens new liturgy rules condemning many aspects including:

any traditional vestments
vesting prayers
altar rails
kneeling for Communion
says Latin fosters “unacceptable” ideas

Via @RorateCaeli, writing that letter will come from bishop soon. https://t.co/FTQ7PR6cOG pic.twitter.com/IvnDr3YrZc

— Michael Haynes 🇻🇦 (@MLJHaynes) May 28, 2025

Dad-O-Lot said:

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I only see the establishment of a specific location and times for TLM in the Diocese. Where are the other restrictions? (e.g. vesting prayers, etc...)

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AGC said:

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Question: does he not have the authority of the church and Christ granted to him, to administer his diocese the way he chooses? If the papacy doesn't rebuke him, why would y'all?

This is one of those things I often wonder about, since American latins seem quite content to throw people they disagree under the bus. You can have anti-popes and bad dogs and all sort of derogatory things to say about the chosen pope through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and it just comes off as dissonant.

Where does the American Catholic at an individual level get comfort in saying such things?

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Quo Vadis? said:

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AGC said:

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Question: does he not have the authority of the church and Christ granted to him, to administer his diocese the way he chooses? If the papacy doesn't rebuke him, why would y'all?

This is one of those things I often wonder about, since American latins seem quite content to throw people they disagree under the bus. You can have anti-popes and bad dogs and all sort of derogatory things to say about the chosen pope through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and it just comes off as dissonant.

Where does the American Catholic at an individual level get comfort in saying such things?

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He absolutely does, and I think he is following the spirit of TC and what Pope Francis seeked to accomplish; a complete destruction and total victory of the divisive trads who are sowing devastation within the Barque of Peter with their almsgiving, mass-attendance, fecundity, and otherwise orthodoxy

This is not my Bishop, so I don't feel any need not to critique what I think is harmful to his flock. Much in the same way that I think Fr.James Martin truly and prayerfully thinks Christ is all in favor of gay romantic relationships; I can critique this Bishop and say while he has authority as the ordinary of western North Carolina, his judgement and means of going about administering and shepherding his diocese is miserable.

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Dad-O-Lot said:

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Thank You!

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Quo Vadis? said:

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AGC said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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AGC said:

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Question: does he not have the authority of the church and Christ granted to him, to administer his diocese the way he chooses? If the papacy doesn't rebuke him, why would y'all?

This is one of those things I often wonder about, since American latins seem quite content to throw people they disagree under the bus. You can have anti-popes and bad dogs and all sort of derogatory things to say about the chosen pope through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and it just comes off as dissonant.

Where does the American Catholic at an individual level get comfort in saying such things?

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He absolutely does, and I think he is following the spirit of TC and what Pope Francis seeked to accomplish; a complete destruction and total victory of the divisive trads who are sowing devastation within the Barque of Peter with their almsgiving, mass-attendance, fecundity, and otherwise orthodoxy

This is not my Bishop, so I don't feel any need not to critique what I think is harmful to his flock. Much in the same way that I think Fr.James Martin truly and prayerfully thinks Christ is all in favor of gay romantic relationships; I can critique this Bishop and say while he has authority as the ordinary of western North Carolina, his judgement and means of going about administering and shepherding his diocese is miserable.

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But where does that come from, the 'I can say anything I want and believe the worst things about God ordained authorities,' and not sin or be wrong in the process. Like what you just said about Francis and his goals, those aren't his words nor would he admit to such motives, right? But you feel no compunction calling the man the spirit guided to elect pope, someone seeking complete destruction of a group of people.

This isn't, 'pray for the church, as I feel the faithful will be demoralized.' It's not, 'pray that orthodoxy would be restored and the church preserved in the midst of what I see as divisive.' I get that some of this is the Latin influence, since y'all have different liturgies and you want to preserve it, though it appears not to be unifying, but it's your personal preference for worship, right?

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I think you have a false understanding of "the spirit guiding" the election of Pope's and bishop. The Holy Spirit does not do that, humans do that, fallible humans. The Holy Spirit just ensures those people won't teach heresy as truth; that's it. They're still human, still have free will and full agency to make bad decisions. Imagine not being able to critique some of the miserable bishops and cardinals who aided and abetted abuse during the crisis; God didn't ordain any of that; that was all the work of fallen man.

It's not so much the liturgy that needs to be preserved, it's what the liturgy speaks to; it's how the praxis impacts our understanding of Christ and our participation in his life, death and resurrection.

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AGC said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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AGC said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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AGC said:

---

Question: does he not have the authority of the church and Christ granted to him, to administer his diocese the way he chooses? If the papacy doesn't rebuke him, why would y'all?

This is one of those things I often wonder about, since American latins seem quite content to throw people they disagree under the bus. You can have anti-popes and bad dogs and all sort of derogatory things to say about the chosen pope through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and it just comes off as dissonant.

Where does the American Catholic at an individual level get comfort in saying such things?

---

He absolutely does, and I think he is following the spirit of TC and what Pope Francis seeked to accomplish; a complete destruction and total victory of the divisive trads who are sowing devastation within the Barque of Peter with their almsgiving, mass-attendance, fecundity, and otherwise orthodoxy

This is not my Bishop, so I don't feel any need not to critique what I think is harmful to his flock. Much in the same way that I think Fr.James Martin truly and prayerfully thinks Christ is all in favor of gay romantic relationships; I can critique this Bishop and say while he has authority as the ordinary of western North Carolina, his judgement and means of going about administering and shepherding his diocese is miserable.

---

But where does that come from, the 'I can say anything I want and believe the worst things about God ordained authorities,' and not sin or be wrong in the process. Like what you just said about Francis and his goals, those aren't his words nor would he admit to such motives, right? But you feel no compunction calling the man the spirit guided to elect pope, someone seeking complete destruction of a group of people.

This isn't, 'pray for the church, as I feel the faithful will be demoralized.' It's not, 'pray that orthodoxy would be restored and the church preserved in the midst of what I see as divisive.' I get that some of this is the Latin influence, since y'all have different liturgies and you want to preserve it, though it appears not to be unifying, but it's your personal preference for worship, right?

---

I think you have a false understanding of "the spirit guiding" the election of Pope's and bishop. The Holy Spirit does not do that, humans do that, fallible humans. The Holy Spirit just ensures those people won't teach heresy as truth; that's it. They're still human, still have free will and full agency to make bad decisions. Imagine not being able to critique some of the miserable bishops and cardinals who aided and abetted abuse during the crisis; God didn't ordain any of that; that was all the work of fallen man.

It's not so much the liturgy that needs to be preserved, it's what the liturgy speaks to; it's how the praxis impacts our understanding of Christ and our participation in his life, death and resurrection.

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Not false, trying to reconcile all the Roman statements on it from other threads. I recall someone specifically saying the spirit was guiding the process and correcting my understanding (which was originally what you just said). It seems a lot of 'heads I win, tails you lose' when it comes to pope elections, and yall seem to have individual freedom to determine who is and isn't a faithful representative of the church and criticize them out loud rather than deferring to your authorities to handle it.

Again, if he's is the representative of Christ, vested with Christ's authority to administer the sacraments, etc. are you really in the bounds of orthodoxy to criticize him? Is he sinning by restricting TLM?

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Quo Vadis? said:

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AGC said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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AGC said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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AGC said:

---

Question: does he not have the authority of the church and Christ granted to him, to administer his diocese the way he chooses? If the papacy doesn't rebuke him, why would y'all?

This is one of those things I often wonder about, since American latins seem quite content to throw people they disagree under the bus. You can have anti-popes and bad dogs and all sort of derogatory things to say about the chosen pope through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and it just comes off as dissonant.

Where does the American Catholic at an individual level get comfort in saying such things?

---

He absolutely does, and I think he is following the spirit of TC and what Pope Francis seeked to accomplish; a complete destruction and total victory of the divisive trads who are sowing devastation within the Barque of Peter with their almsgiving, mass-attendance, fecundity, and otherwise orthodoxy

This is not my Bishop, so I don't feel any need not to critique what I think is harmful to his flock. Much in the same way that I think Fr.James Martin truly and prayerfully thinks Christ is all in favor of gay romantic relationships; I can critique this Bishop and say while he has authority as the ordinary of western North Carolina, his judgement and means of going about administering and shepherding his diocese is miserable.

---

But where does that come from, the 'I can say anything I want and believe the worst things about God ordained authorities,' and not sin or be wrong in the process. Like what you just said about Francis and his goals, those aren't his words nor would he admit to such motives, right? But you feel no compunction calling the man the spirit guided to elect pope, someone seeking complete destruction of a group of people.

This isn't, 'pray for the church, as I feel the faithful will be demoralized.' It's not, 'pray that orthodoxy would be restored and the church preserved in the midst of what I see as divisive.' I get that some of this is the Latin influence, since y'all have different liturgies and you want to preserve it, though it appears not to be unifying, but it's your personal preference for worship, right?

---

I think you have a false understanding of "the spirit guiding" the election of Pope's and bishop. The Holy Spirit does not do that, humans do that, fallible humans. The Holy Spirit just ensures those people won't teach heresy as truth; that's it. They're still human, still have free will and full agency to make bad decisions. Imagine not being able to critique some of the miserable bishops and cardinals who aided and abetted abuse during the crisis; God didn't ordain any of that; that was all the work of fallen man.

It's not so much the liturgy that needs to be preserved, it's what the liturgy speaks to; it's how the praxis impacts our understanding of Christ and our participation in his life, death and resurrection.

---

Not false, trying to reconcile all the Roman statements on it from other threads. I recall someone specifically saying the spirit was guiding the process and correcting my understanding (which was originally what you just said). It seems a lot of 'heads I win, tails you lose' when it comes to pope elections, and yall seem to have individual freedom to determine who is and isn't a faithful representative of the church and criticize them out loud rather than deferring to your authorities to handle it.

Again, if he's is the representative of Christ, vested with Christ's authority to administer the sacraments, etc. are you really in the bounds of orthodoxy to criticize him? Is he sinning by restricting TLM?

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A lot of Catholics have a skewed idea about the interaction of the Holy Spirit and human agency.

I absolutely defer to my authorities which is why you cannot find a single post of mine criticizing Pope Francis while he was alive, nor my ordinary. The Bishop of Charlotte is not my bishop, he's fair game, and I don't believe I've said anything untrue or hyperbolic about him.

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AGC said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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AGC said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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AGC said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

---

AGC said:

---

Question: does he not have the authority of the church and Christ granted to him, to administer his diocese the way he chooses? If the papacy doesn't rebuke him, why would y'all?

This is one of those things I often wonder about, since American latins seem quite content to throw people they disagree under the bus. You can have anti-popes and bad dogs and all sort of derogatory things to say about the chosen pope through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and it just comes off as dissonant.

Where does the American Catholic at an individual level get comfort in saying such things?

---

He absolutely does, and I think he is following the spirit of TC and what Pope Francis seeked to accomplish; a complete destruction and total victory of the divisive trads who are sowing devastation within the Barque of Peter with their almsgiving, mass-attendance, fecundity, and otherwise orthodoxy

This is not my Bishop, so I don't feel any need not to critique what I think is harmful to his flock. Much in the same way that I think Fr.James Martin truly and prayerfully thinks Christ is all in favor of gay romantic relationships; I can critique this Bishop and say while he has authority as the ordinary of western North Carolina, his judgement and means of going about administering and shepherding his diocese is miserable.

---

But where does that come from, the 'I can say anything I want and believe the worst things about God ordained authorities,' and not sin or be wrong in the process. Like what you just said about Francis and his goals, those aren't his words nor would he admit to such motives, right? But you feel no compunction calling the man the spirit guided to elect pope, someone seeking complete destruction of a group of people.

This isn't, 'pray for the church, as I feel the faithful will be demoralized.' It's not, 'pray that orthodoxy would be restored and the church preserved in the midst of what I see as divisive.' I get that some of this is the Latin influence, since y'all have different liturgies and you want to preserve it, though it appears not to be unifying, but it's your personal preference for worship, right?

---

I think you have a false understanding of "the spirit guiding" the election of Pope's and bishop. The Holy Spirit does not do that, humans do that, fallible humans. The Holy Spirit just ensures those people won't teach heresy as truth; that's it. They're still human, still have free will and full agency to make bad decisions. Imagine not being able to critique some of the miserable bishops and cardinals who aided and abetted abuse during the crisis; God didn't ordain any of that; that was all the work of fallen man.

It's not so much the liturgy that needs to be preserved, it's what the liturgy speaks to; it's how the praxis impacts our understanding of Christ and our participation in his life, death and resurrection.

---

Not false, trying to reconcile all the Roman statements on it from other threads. I recall someone specifically saying the spirit was guiding the process and correcting my understanding (which was originally what you just said). It seems a lot of 'heads I win, tails you lose' when it comes to pope elections, and yall seem to have individual freedom to determine who is and isn't a faithful representative of the church and criticize them out loud rather than deferring to your authorities to handle it.

Again, if he's is the representative of Christ, vested with Christ's authority to administer the sacraments, etc. are you really in the bounds of orthodoxy to criticize him? Is he sinning by restricting TLM?

---

A lot of Catholics have a skewed idea about the interaction of the Holy Spirit and human agency.

I absolutely defer to my authorities which is why you cannot find a single post of mine criticizing Pope Francis while he was alive, nor my ordinary. The Bishop of Charlotte is not my bishop, he's fair game, and I don't believe I've said anything untrue or hyperbolic about him.

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Well it wasn't necessarily a specific 'you' originally but he's been called evil, a tyrant, and you did call him a political animal remaking the church in 'his own image instead of Christ's'. That sounds really strong since you've set him up in opposition to Christ. Hence the delving into what's ok and not ok to say, by Roman standards. Sure, you believe it to be true, but does that make it ok to say?

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Quo Vadis? said:

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PabloSerna said:

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Read everything before casting stones. Bishop is right. Been saying this for years- the "smoke of Satan" is not who you thought it was. Pope Paul IV wrote about this 50 plus years ago. The smoke are those who reject the reforms of Vatican II that emphasize the mission over aesthetics.

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"Emphasize the mission over aesthetics" - I didn't realize they were mutually exclusive.

But let's go there. What did Vatican II reform, and how do we see these fruits played out within the church?

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