Not sure why those parishes need this smells and bells to go and mission… seems like if bubbles and non-liturgical music are acceptable that incense and organs should be… but that's none of my bidness.
Vatican Report Exposes Cracks in Foundation of Traditionis Custodes
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Last: 5 mo ago by fc2112
I will bless you with a bass guitar.SoulSlaveAG2005 said:
Not sure why those parishes need this smells and bells to go and mission… seems like if bubbles and non-liturgical music are acceptable that incense and organs should be… but that's none of my bidness.
SoulSlaveAG2005 said:
Alembic Rogue 6 Coco Bolo, fretless
ESP LTD with active emg pick ups or you're not bassin right.
This message has been approved by Brad, Jerry and Mitch..
Not neck-thru.
To make this relevant.
Neck thru- coco bolo fretless Bass : TLM
As
ESP LTD, active EMGs : NO
Neck thru- coco bolo fretless Bass : TLM
As
ESP LTD, active EMGs : NO
This message has been approved by Brad, Jerry and Mitch..
For me this discussion has always been about the TLM. Maybe this will explain the connection and the "world wide" reference, which to me is obvious, but I can see how some may not understand:
" Traditionis custodes (Guardians of the Tradition) is an apostolic letter issued motu proprio by Pope Francis, promulgated on 16 July 2021 regarding the continued use of pre-Vatican II rites. It restricts the celebration of the Tridentine Mass of the Roman Rite, sometimes colloquially called the "Latin Mass" or the "Traditional Latin Mass". The apostolic letter was accompanied by an ecclesiastical letter to the Catholic bishops of the world."
ETA- been a Dominican for 25 years and never celebrated the Dominican Rite. Will look into it. Thx
" Traditionis custodes (Guardians of the Tradition) is an apostolic letter issued motu proprio by Pope Francis, promulgated on 16 July 2021 regarding the continued use of pre-Vatican II rites. It restricts the celebration of the Tridentine Mass of the Roman Rite, sometimes colloquially called the "Latin Mass" or the "Traditional Latin Mass". The apostolic letter was accompanied by an ecclesiastical letter to the Catholic bishops of the world."
ETA- been a Dominican for 25 years and never celebrated the Dominican Rite. Will look into it. Thx
The closest I've ever come to buying stars... The vomit emoji is needed hereHtownAg19 said:
Here's how the "renewal" is going
The comment section reads like a bunch of Pharisees. Shameful.
PabloSerna said:
The comment section reads like a bunch of Pharisees. Shameful.
The mass is being made a mockery of and your one beef is the comments in a YouTube video?
There is so much wrong with this and sooo many questions. Where is the Crucifix? Where are the kneelers? Are those items missing because they have accepted that this is a stage for entertaining and not an altar for worship? I know there's a lot I still need to learn but what liturgical season is Aqua Blue? How can the same diocese that has allowed this to happen also be the same diocese that gave us the current Pope and Bishop Robert Barron!!?747Ag said:HtownAg19 said:
Here's how the "renewal" is going
Sedevacantist channel, but the cringe is still cringe regardless of the messenger.
I stay out of the NO vs TLM debate. I attend NO mass in a very traditional church under a very respectful priest. I understand the arguments for and against both forms. Both have merit and both have their faults. The problem with the debate is that it generates division in the church and each side will point to the extremes of each others (i.e. TLM supporters would point to the scandalous liturgy performed in that video as an example against the NO and so forth). I don't want to be part of that division.
Nonetheless, at the end of the day either you support and follow the guidance of the magisterium or you don't. If you don't, you are not a practicing Catholic.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
FIDO95 said:There is so much wrong with this and sooo many questions. Where is the Crucifix? Where are the kneelers? Are those items missing because they have accepted that this is a stage for entertaining and not an altar for worship? I know there's a lot I still need to learn but what liturgical season is Aqua Blue? How can the same diocese that has allowed this to happen also be the same diocese that gave us the current Pope and Bishop Robert Barron!!?747Ag said:HtownAg19 said:
Here's how the "renewal" is going
Sedevacantist channel, but the cringe is still cringe regardless of the messenger.
I stay out of the NO vs TLM debate. I attend NO mass in a very traditional church under a very respectful priest. I understand the arguments for and against both forms. Both have merit and both have their faults. The problem with the debate is that it generates division in the church and each side will point to the extremes of each others (i.e. TLM supporters would point to the scandalous liturgy performed in that video as an example against the NO and so forth). I don't want to be part of that division.
Nonetheless, at the end of the day either you support and follow the guidance of the magisterium or you don't. If you don't, you are not a practicing Catholic.
The vast majority of us Latineers, as Soulslave has dubbed us, just want to be able to go to Mass in the old rite without the specter of Rome or our bishop threatening us with the loss of our parish home or sending us off to the peripheries. Not here to argue against the New Mass. However, if the bishops took seriously the cringe in these videos as well as the many other rampant liturgical abuses, there likely would not be any semblance of a liturgical war. Yet some bishops turn their ire towards anything that remotely smells of TLM in the New Mass and it's banhammered. Kyrie Eleison.
I don't disagree with any of what you have laid out. There have clearly two tiers of justice. Nonetheless, we should hope and pray for unity. I recently watched an interview (3 hours!?!) with Matt Fradd and Voice of Reason. I'm a big fan of both. It's hard for to disagree with his plan "If I were Pope". Just for reference, when he is discuss the parish/service in Omaha, Nebraska he is referring to an earlier point in the interview. He had discussed how by chance while traveling, he attended a Mass there and it was the most reverent NO Mass he had ever attended.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
"Mockery" implies a level of intent that I do not see anywhere in these videos.
Is the music quality on par with more traditional hymns or chant? Probably not, we can agree that there are better examples. Again- this is not an attempt to mock the liturgy.
This goes back to my opinion that these are the kind of things that will get worked out in time because they won't stand the test of time. Which brings up the question- why limit certain aspects of the liturgy, music or rubrics- that have improved over time to the point that they have become the standard from which many are judging from?
It would seem that renewal does not stay locked in a period of time. Rather, it is the eternal aspects of the mass (Eucharist, the Word, etc.) which tie in the renewed liturgy with the older version. Then add in the participation of the Laity and the language- that is the aim of the liturgical reforms in my opinion. It is building upon this solid foundation for the people in this time.
Is the music quality on par with more traditional hymns or chant? Probably not, we can agree that there are better examples. Again- this is not an attempt to mock the liturgy.
This goes back to my opinion that these are the kind of things that will get worked out in time because they won't stand the test of time. Which brings up the question- why limit certain aspects of the liturgy, music or rubrics- that have improved over time to the point that they have become the standard from which many are judging from?
It would seem that renewal does not stay locked in a period of time. Rather, it is the eternal aspects of the mass (Eucharist, the Word, etc.) which tie in the renewed liturgy with the older version. Then add in the participation of the Laity and the language- that is the aim of the liturgical reforms in my opinion. It is building upon this solid foundation for the people in this time.
Blowing bubbles at the foot of the altar is not a mockery? Have you lost your mind?
I mean. He wasn't blowing bubbles…..he was using a bubble wand…
HtownAg19 said:
Blowing bubbles at the foot of the altar is not a mockery? Have you lost your mind?
Poor taste, not very reverent- but mockery would be analogous to contempt and hatred. Not seeing that.
PabloSerna said:HtownAg19 said:
Blowing bubbles at the foot of the altar is not a mockery? Have you lost your mind?
Poor taste, not very reverent- but mockery would be analogous to contempt and hatred. Not seeing that.
The lengths you will go to defend the indefensible baffles me. I think you are genuinely decent person with a kind heart and a deep love for our Lord. However your willingness to support TC and restrictions on TLM while you casually dismiss blatant sacrilege is perplexing to say the least. It's actually offensive if I'm being honest, and your position is anything but tolerant.
Do you think man can add anything to God? An obvious no. God does not need man. It is man that is in need of God.
Do you think God prefers one type of music over another? I believe God sees through all of the off key music, drums, chant, organ - whatever and sees our heart.
When Jesus drove out the vendors in the temple they asked for a sign- he told them to tear down the temple and he would rebuild it in three days. They, like many today are hung up on the physical, saying it had taken 46 years to build it. They completely missed the truth that Jesus witnessed that day.
What everyone is missing is that God came down on that day - bad guitar and all- a miracle occurred.
Do you think God prefers one type of music over another? I believe God sees through all of the off key music, drums, chant, organ - whatever and sees our heart.
When Jesus drove out the vendors in the temple they asked for a sign- he told them to tear down the temple and he would rebuild it in three days. They, like many today are hung up on the physical, saying it had taken 46 years to build it. They completely missed the truth that Jesus witnessed that day.
What everyone is missing is that God came down on that day - bad guitar and all- a miracle occurred.
No, we're not missing the miracle. We're indignant at the disrespect shown to Our Blessed Lord present in that miracle. Such displays are man-centric. More about us and our obsession with novelty than His Divine Presence.PabloSerna said:
Do you think man can add anything to God? An obvious no. God does not need man. It is man that is in need of God.
Do you think God prefers one type of music over another? I believe God sees through all of the off key music, drums, chant, organ - whatever and sees our heart.
When Jesus drove out the vendors in the temple they asked for a sign- he told them to tear down the temple and he would rebuild it in three days. They, like many today are hung up on the physical, saying it had taken 46 years to build it. They completely missed the truth that Jesus witnessed that day.
What everyone is missing is that God came down on that day - bad guitar and all- a miracle occurred.
PabloSerna said:
Do you think man can add anything to God? An obvious no. God does not need man. It is man that is in need of God.
Do you think God prefers one type of music over another? I believe God sees through all of the off key music, drums, chant, organ - whatever and sees our heart.
When Jesus drove out the vendors in the temple they asked for a sign- he told them to tear down the temple and he would rebuild it in three days. They, like many today are hung up on the physical, saying it had taken 46 years to build it. They completely missed the truth that Jesus witnessed that day.
What everyone is missing is that God came down on that day - bad guitar and all- a miracle occurred.
There's such a thing as objectively beautiful and ugly music and architecture. When liturgy is made to be fashionable, it inevitably goes out of fashion. It's designed to appeal to a time and place. Man in need of God is why we need beautiful liturgy that inspires our affection. Modern art is a rejection of the idea that there's an ideal and an embrace of the idea that beauty is subjective or in the eye of the beholder, which is out of line with Christianity. God is real. There's an ideal form. Beauty is objective. Modern music is ugly. Ugly things aren't appropriate to the liturgy.
What is modern art? Modern music? Modern architecture?
I can't speak to music, but I have some insight on modern art and architecture and I can tell you that it is the same search that has always driven man- the search for meaning in his time.
A pretty good architect once said that beauty is the glitter of truth. A pretty good theologian once wrote of the splendor of truth. That is value of meaningful art in my opinion- that it makes visible the invisible. We should not want to stifle art because it doesn't meet our standards . It needs all the freedom it can get to make sense of it all. As you say not all art is beautiful- but that's not the point of art- to be beautiful. It's to understand and express this understanding in different mediums (music, architecture, graphic, words, etc..). Give it time. If there is truth in it - it will last.
I can't speak to music, but I have some insight on modern art and architecture and I can tell you that it is the same search that has always driven man- the search for meaning in his time.
A pretty good architect once said that beauty is the glitter of truth. A pretty good theologian once wrote of the splendor of truth. That is value of meaningful art in my opinion- that it makes visible the invisible. We should not want to stifle art because it doesn't meet our standards . It needs all the freedom it can get to make sense of it all. As you say not all art is beautiful- but that's not the point of art- to be beautiful. It's to understand and express this understanding in different mediums (music, architecture, graphic, words, etc..). Give it time. If there is truth in it - it will last.
PabloSerna said:
It needs all the freedom it can get to make sense of it all. As you say not all art is beautiful- but that's not the point of art- to be beautiful. It's to understand and express this understanding in different mediums (music, architecture, graphic, words, etc..). Give it time. If there is truth in it - it will last.
My friend, you are a walking contradiction. You accept and defend obvious abuses to the Sacred Liturgy in the name of "freedom" (bubble wands, secular music, dancing, clown Masses, etc., etc.) and say to those who find it objectionable it is they who need to be more accepting and understanding and flexible. You spout this endless drivel always on the side of modernism, progressivism, and acceptance as if your enlightened ideas and way of thinking is superior to anything traditional.
Then you do a complete 180 and support the snuffing out and restriction of TLM and completely undermine yourself and everything you defend. You say stuff like "if there is truth in it - it will last" …and then you support those trying to restrict and eliminate TLM which is objectively beautiful and has "lasted" for more than 1,000 years!
The sad part is you seem to be completely unaware or unable to see your hypocrisy.
FIDO95 said:
I don't disagree with any of what you have laid out. There have clearly two tiers of justice. Nonetheless, we should hope and pray for unity. I recently watched an interview (3 hours!?!) with Matt Fradd and Voice of Reason. I'm a big fan of both. It's hard for to disagree with his plan "If I were Pope". Just for reference, when he is discuss the parish/service in Omaha, Nebraska he is referring to an earlier point in the interview. He had discussed how by chance while traveling, he attended a Mass there and it was the most reverent NO Mass he had ever attended.
Hard for me to take Voice of Reason seriously, he knows his stuff, but his polemics against the SSPX for embracing a more traditional form of Christianity are hypocritical since he left the Latin Church for the same reason and went Byzantine
PabloSerna said:
"Mockery" implies a level of intent that I do not see anywhere in these videos.
Is the music quality on par with more traditional hymns or chant? Probably not, we can agree that there are better examples. Again- this is not an attempt to mock the liturgy.
This goes back to my opinion that these are the kind of things that will get worked out in time because they won't stand the test of time. Which brings up the question- why limit certain aspects of the liturgy, music or rubrics- that have improved over time to the point that they have become the standard from which many are judging from?
It would seem that renewal does not stay locked in a period of time. Rather, it is the eternal aspects of the mass (Eucharist, the Word, etc.) which tie in the renewed liturgy with the older version. Then add in the participation of the Laity and the language- that is the aim of the liturgical reforms in my opinion. It is building upon this solid foundation for the people in this time.
Why not use twinkies for the Eucharist?
Think Rothko chapel vs. Sistine chapel or "here I am Lord" vs. "Attende Domine". Those things elicit very different responses. One set of things have a transcendent quality, the other two don't.
The first 2 sentences in your final paragraph are fine, but then you bludgeon them to death with the rest of the paragraph.
The first 2 sentences in your final paragraph are fine, but then you bludgeon them to death with the rest of the paragraph.
Texan Rite of Mass... Beaver Nuggets and Dr. PepperQuo Vadis? said:PabloSerna said:
"Mockery" implies a level of intent that I do not see anywhere in these videos.
Is the music quality on par with more traditional hymns or chant? Probably not, we can agree that there are better examples. Again- this is not an attempt to mock the liturgy.
This goes back to my opinion that these are the kind of things that will get worked out in time because they won't stand the test of time. Which brings up the question- why limit certain aspects of the liturgy, music or rubrics- that have improved over time to the point that they have become the standard from which many are judging from?
It would seem that renewal does not stay locked in a period of time. Rather, it is the eternal aspects of the mass (Eucharist, the Word, etc.) which tie in the renewed liturgy with the older version. Then add in the participation of the Laity and the language- that is the aim of the liturgical reforms in my opinion. It is building upon this solid foundation for the people in this time.
Why not use twinkies for the Eucharist?
What I do understand is that Pablo understands all this don't you Pablo.
You have a very soft spot for the LGBT crowd, and I understand why but take them as an example.
Why when a person who was born a man, and realizes they're a woman, change their personal appearance? Why don't they just continue living as they always have with the added "I'm actually a woman now" disclaimer?
Because as humans we are both spirit and flesh, and our behaviors and appearance both influence and inform our actions and beliefs.
We kneel when making confession, we beat our chest during the Confiteor, we put ashes on our forehead during Ash Wednesday, we cross ourselves when entering Mass, and abstain from meat on Fridays (even non trads during Lent).
We do all those things for a reason. What do you think those reasons are?
You have a very soft spot for the LGBT crowd, and I understand why but take them as an example.
Why when a person who was born a man, and realizes they're a woman, change their personal appearance? Why don't they just continue living as they always have with the added "I'm actually a woman now" disclaimer?
Because as humans we are both spirit and flesh, and our behaviors and appearance both influence and inform our actions and beliefs.
We kneel when making confession, we beat our chest during the Confiteor, we put ashes on our forehead during Ash Wednesday, we cross ourselves when entering Mass, and abstain from meat on Fridays (even non trads during Lent).
We do all those things for a reason. What do you think those reasons are?
747Ag said:Texan Rite of Mass... Beaver Nuggets and Dr. PepperQuo Vadis? said:PabloSerna said:
"Mockery" implies a level of intent that I do not see anywhere in these videos.
Is the music quality on par with more traditional hymns or chant? Probably not, we can agree that there are better examples. Again- this is not an attempt to mock the liturgy.
This goes back to my opinion that these are the kind of things that will get worked out in time because they won't stand the test of time. Which brings up the question- why limit certain aspects of the liturgy, music or rubrics- that have improved over time to the point that they have become the standard from which many are judging from?
It would seem that renewal does not stay locked in a period of time. Rather, it is the eternal aspects of the mass (Eucharist, the Word, etc.) which tie in the renewed liturgy with the older version. Then add in the participation of the Laity and the language- that is the aim of the liturgical reforms in my opinion. It is building upon this solid foundation for the people in this time.
Why not use twinkies for the Eucharist?
"The Lord be with y'all"
Diane Montagna doubles down...PabloSerna said:
Turns out she did not have all the facts.
"Vatican spokesman Matteo Bruni declined to explicitly confirm the authenticity of the documents, which were posted online this week by a Vatican reporter. But he said they "presumably" were part of one of the documents forming the basis of Francis' decision.
"As such, it provides a very partial and incomplete reconstruction of the decision-making process," Bruni told reporters. adding that successive confidential reports and consultations were taken into consideration."
https://dianemontagna.substack.com/p/traditionis-custodes-new-book-supports
And then triples down... and addresses Bruni's response.
https://dianemontagna.substack.com/p/new-evidence-confirms-cdf-report
She brings the receipts, as the kids say. Real journalism, not gotcha-style pieces.
She HAS to double down. Her reputation has rightly been called into question.
I think you know why.
"The sad part is you seem to be completely unaware or unable to see your hypocrisy."
You are right in that I don't see the contradiction in renewal that preserves the truth and pours it into new wine skins.
You are right in that I don't see the contradiction in renewal that preserves the truth and pours it into new wine skins.
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